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[Eji1700]

Something that was brought up with the recent blog post was that currently a lot of the cargo/support ship hulls are sort of wasted assets.  They look really cool in the store and then are never seen again as they're essentially passive boosts and serve no real tactical or strategic purpose.  Alex mentioned he had something in the works for this, but I've got some downtime so here we are:

First off, flavor- The idea of a trade armada is something we've already seen in mods and it's not really viable right now. Neither is the smugglers ship.  Something that would normally be innocuous at first glance but has been heavily modified to murder anything that bothers it (millennium falcon being the popular example).  Hell in the Escape Velocity series some of my most fun runs were taking "Cargo" ships and modifying them with as much heavy weaponry as possible (IDE frigate was the easiest to show this off with, but with how that game worked you could do it with almost anything).

Second redundancy- Even as just passive stat boosters, there's little reason other than scarcity to get anything other than the biggest support ship that fits your needs.  Speed could technically be an issue, but it's rarely a factor in practice (and honestly the whole navigation aspect of the game is ripe for more gameplay.)

Third, Risk- It's worth mentioning the inherent issue with using combat support/cargo ships, and that's if you DO lose one, you can wind up winning the battle but having to pitch half your cargo.  I think this is actually an interesting decision compared to the current all or nothing system of only sending in your military fleet and basically being screwed if you lose, but either way it's something that has to be considered when looking at hulls.

Hulls-

Quick thoughts on each.  There's a few that are "ok" but none that I feel you'd ever ideally take to battle.  Of note fuel ships not included since you can summarize them with "nope, just passive upgrades"

Frigates:

Hermes- No combat ability to my knowledge.  Have rarely touched it though.

Kite- I've been told these can actually be used to great effect, but then whenever I play I forget to test it.

Mercury- A slightly better hermes that's still useless.

Mudskipper- straight up target practice.  I don't hate that though as such ships SHOULD exist, but I also like that there's a (very silly) combat variant

Ox- literally just a passive.  No point to ever deploy/touch/interact with it again after you've bought it except to lower its sensor profile (another passive do it once and forget interaction).

Shepherd- The game actually starts you with one of these depending on your choices.  I love that it gives salvage bonuses (a reason to have it in your fleet), but combat wise there's not much you can do with it.  I would like if you could get a modspec or something that would allow you to upgrade the drones (not a full fighter bay but if you wanted to beef this thing up).  Either way it's mostly useless in practice with no option to change that.

Wayfarer- hey this one isn't awful.  It's hardly great, but it's got enough slots to actually be a threat and it's stats aren't terrible.  I feel like this is a good baseline for what's actually worth bringing into combat.  As the game's economy is now you still never would outside of the early game, but at least you don't feel punished for it.


Destroyers:

Buffalo- obviously not intended to fight like the mudskipper, and like the mudskipper has a combat variant at least (which is fun if dumb).  Also does have a P variant with shielded cargo holds, so there's some interesting choices there.

Gemini- I've actually used this in fleets as a quick and dirty carrier and certainly haven't hated that decision, especially in multiples when I find some good fighters early on but haven't gotten a condor or something else to hold them yet (or are avoiding them just to test). It's still very fragile though which can be a problem.

Mule- Literally designed as a combat freighter in game, in practice it's not awful, but I use it mostly to distract/support.  I've rarely had one kitted out to kill anything.  The pirate version is flat out worse in almost every way except having shielded cargo and a medium universal instead of medium energy.  I suspect they could do ok in mass.

Nebula- like the buffalo not really designed to ever be useful in combat, which really just makes it the occasional eye candy before it explodes.

Salvage rig- Obviously not meant for combat, but only mentioning because I'd again like something that lowers refit times/costs if included in the fleet (a staging base).  I understand there's minmax concerns with that, but I think it makes logistical sense that these large fleets might have something to help them swap out weaponry.   I'd expect it to come with restrictions though (lowered fleet speed while refitting and different sized/multiple rigs required to swap out larger equipment).

Tarsus- Another pure cargo ship that gets a nod just because it has a combat variant (condor).

Valkyrie- Of note because of the upcoming changes meaning carrying crew will matter again.  That said as it stands now it's maybe barely deployable as a support ship.

Cruisers:

Colossus- another "has combat variants" which again makes sense given the hull.  Only issue I have is the pirate variant is laughably bad.

Starliner- I don't think i've ever bought/fought this and i'm not sure what it's purpose is.  There was a starliner in Escape Velocity Nova which wasn't a terrible ship, in part because it could get special missions that paid well, but I have no idea what the purpose of this is in Star Sector.  It certainly looks like glorified target practice.

Venture- I see a lot of people knock this but I think it's a pretty good example of how these ships could work.  First off, yes it's a crusier that, power wise, is more on line with a destroyer, but that said it's a pretty serious one.  Sabots + Hyperions + expanded missile racks give it serious killing power and it's not going to evaporate under fire if you don't babysit it.  It's hardly on par with any other ship its size, but I don't mind bringing them to combat to serve as fire support.

Capitals:

There's only the Atlas and the Prometheus and neither does anyting other than hold some passive mods after you buy it and forget about it.  I really think either of these should have a pirate/condor type variant.

Special mention:

Lore wise the mora is a military ship, turned support, turned military again and happens to be my favorite hull in the game.  Only pointing it out because it makes sense within lore that larger hulls can be repurposed for combat when heavy military hulls aren't available.

Anyways that's basically my breakdown.  I mention all this mostly because playing a trade fleet in vanilla is super unrewarding.  Not only do the base mechanics prohibit it even if you bend them to their max (manipulate the market and smuggle), but it doesn't help that the "lore" appropriate fleet would just be terrible compared to a full on military fleet with an atlas.  I think this is a huge area where the game already has the framework in place, it just needs some tweaking.

One possible option is to allow players more freedom in refitting their ships.  Not full on customization, but a big part of why anything works in EV is because you could convert cargo space to hull space, so the equivalent here might be sacrificing cargo/fuel capacity for more OP.  This doesn't solve the terrible weapon selection for most of these ships, but some converted hangers + heavy armor could go a long way towards giving your merchant fleet some bite. 

[Megas]

Hermes and Mercury had a point when fleet size was determined by Logistics and not hard cap.  Now, player has no use for them because fleet slots and capacity are more precious than upkeep.  Basically, for frigate-sized you want Hounds and Cerberus for dedicated hauling that can outrun everything, or Wayfarer and Shepherd if you want it to fight.

Personnel ships had a point when marines were needed to board and get more ships... or if you wanted to train crew to sell.  Neither apply in 0.8.

Shepherd is good in early-game combat.  It is practically a frigate-sized carrier (even if fighters are only Borer drones) and cargo ship in one.  Choosing Shepherd over Kite (A) is a no-brainer choice for me.

Kite is a missile boat.  Not what I want if I do not want missiles.

Pirate Mule is only worse at first because it comes with a (D) mod.  Restore it and you have the classic Starfarer Mule (plus pirate mods) with a universal that is better than the modern Mule.  The main problem is by the time you can afford to restore Mules, they become obsolete.

Venture used to be good, not unlike a cruiser-sized Gemini.  Having mining pods built-into the fighter bays hurt.  If Venture could use two fighter bays that can be filled with whatever fighters you want, it could be more useful.

Like Venture, Apogee degraded from dedicated combat performance to hybrid or support.  It lacks the mobility and shot range to be useful in a fight.

The biggest problem with hybrids or combat-enabled civilians is their lack of mobility (or lack of defenses in case of frigates) and 0.8 era coward AI.  Since 0.8, the AI is very cowardly and will not engage unless they have an obvious advantage over the enemy.  They will gladly die from CR time out and self-destruction over actually fighting.  Ships that are not dedicated combat ships generally do not have the means to force a fight.

[SCC]

The criticism was directed towards combat freighters, not all freighters and non-combat ships. They're fine, they have their purpose and they do what they do best, even if you rarely interact with them. The issue with combat freighters is that they're bad for both spreadsheets (they require more maintenance, while having less cargo space) and combat (some lack offensive capability, some defensive, and as a cherry on top, you don't risk losing your cargo when flying a combat ship).
The biggest offenders are Mule, Gemini and Venture. Mule has pretty bad weapon mounts. Gemini has awkward weapon mounts and high maintenance. Venture is a flying brick with little to do once it runs out of missiles.
I always forget about Apogee... It's better because it can tank for some time, but has really awkward weapon mounts and isn't mobile enough to use hard flux energy weapons, so it has to use beams, but it can't actually spam them. And it's even less efficient than Venture.

[Megas]

What annoys me about Mule is lack of OP and flux stats.  It used to be good with pre-0.8 skills, but now, it has mediocre stats and speed.  Pirate Mule is better, but if you can restore that, you probably can use more Enforcers and Hammerheads if nothing else.

Gemini is sluggish.  It cannot run from fights like Drover can.  It has low OP, and it is hard to outfit it effectively.  It is one of the better early-game ships to use if I get one early, thanks to flight deck and high-powered Reserve Deployment system.

Venture is only useful if I get its wreck from the tutorial boss fight.  It is a passable sponge at that point.  Otherwise, it totally ignore it.  It is a pale shadow of what it used to be before 0.8.

I would add 0.8 era Apogee to combat freighter role.  It is not the line ship it used to be.

[Eji1700]

If we count the Apogee I think it's more than good enough, although I see it as a dedicated combat vessel (i also think i've been able to buy it maybe 3 times, seems rare).

And my point on the non combat freighters is it still does feel like a waste of assets.  I have literally never seen or even bought an atlas/Prom after my first game.  Pirating them isn't worth it (and it's not like they're common) and you never EVER want to fly it, so why do they exist?  Efficient late game hauling scenarios and that's about it.  Just feels like a waste of good sprites.

As for the venture, eh I think it's somewhat ok.  There is a major problem with the games economy in general where combat ships like the hammerhead are just as easy to get as a venture, so it's sorta pointless to ever get one, but that said for screwing around it's hardly bad.  Yes it's useless once it's dumped it's missiles, but so are plenty of other ships so just have it retreat.  At least in the meantime it's unlikely the AI will die with it and it'll probably take down 2/3 destroyers with any decent support (it's NOT a solo ship like the hammerhead).

That said i'm all for ways to make these things a little better so you don't just feel punished for using them, and stuck choosing them only for thematic reasons.

[Megas]

I would not fly a dedicated hauler, but I need their capacity, and anything bigger than a frigate is most efficient at the job.  All fleets leaving core need a tanker, and if you plan to chain battle enemies with nowhere nearby to store loot, you need freighters to haul loot.

I attack civilians mainly to steal their wrecks, since they are not very common in a market.  If I need a capital hauler, the most reliable source of them is stealing it from an NPC fleet or debris field left behind by one.  In earlier versions, trade fleets can have a surplus of valuables to steal.  Not often, but it can happen.

There is a major problem with the games economy in general where combat ships like the hammerhead are just as easy to get as a venture

Nevermind economy, which is only useful to someone with commission.  Many combat ships are easier to obtain from wrecks, especially hulls that are common in NPC fleets but rare in shops, like Tempest.  Want some combat ships?  Go fight a few pirates and steal their wrecks.  Most weapons are harder to find than ships.

[Eji1700]

I would not fly a dedicated hauler, but I need their capacity, and anything bigger than a frigate is most efficient at the job.  All fleets leaving core need a tanker, and if you plan to chain battle enemies with nowhere nearby to store loot, you need freighters to haul loot.

I attack civilians mainly to steal their wrecks, since they are not very common in a market.  If I need a capital hauler, the most reliable source of them is stealing it from an NPC fleet or debris field left behind by one.  In earlier versions, trade fleets can have a surplus of valuables to steal.  Not often, but it can happen.

There is a major problem with the games economy in general where combat ships like the hammerhead are just as easy to get as a venture

Nevermind economy, which is only useful to someone with commission.  Many combat ships are easier to obtain from wrecks, especially hulls that are common in NPC fleets but rare in shops, like Tempest.  Want some combat ships?  Go fight a few pirates and steal their wrecks.  Most weapons are harder to find than ships.

I get the passive point of the haulers/tankers.  You buy them to hold things/go farther, but it seems a huge waste to have them only do that, especially when you're trying to have some fight. I get that you'll always have some tankers/haulers be nothing more than storage space and target  practice, but that doesn't mean they should all be that way. 

And yeah the whole ship thing is weird.  I really think the restore feature should become a top level industrial skill (and require specific shipyards) and also have far fewer wrecks in the game (again modified by industrial skill) so ships can actually be an interesting commodity.

That said it's not really the point.  Yes if you're just playing to kill things the best way to play is get a decent tanker, get a decent hauler, and then murder your way to a hodgepodge super fllet while exploring the rim.  The main point is that while that gameplay style works, there's more than enough room for others, and I'd like to see it more encouraged and rewarded.

[Megas]

It would be nice if haulers had a point beyond stat sticks.  Also if hybrids were at the level of various frigates for all sizes.  Frigates have good haulers, and destroyers are passable early game.  Cruisers are no match for Colossus, and there are no hybrids for capitals.  (Odyssey used to be almost a hybrid in early versions.)  It would be nice if all non-tankers had the fuel capacities they used to have so that you only need a tanker if you need to transport fuel to market, not burn it all up on a round trip.  Dedicated ships could always be for civilians only, much like how sub-par hulls like Buffalo 2 and various pirate hulls are for pirates only, and hybrids can haul as much as dedicated, but can fight too, sort of like Warfarer or Shepherd.

I like ship recovery for those who cannot make or buy ships.  It replaced the boarding mechanic (okay before 0.6, terrible random grinding after).  Buying most ships (and weapons) is flat out impossible for those without commission (until indie rep gets high after endgame bounty hunting), and we cannot make ships yet (and I would not be surprised if there is a rarity progression in 0.9).  It would hurt if recovery at all was gated behind a skill.  We already have skills that help with making recovery better.

Rewarding non-combat styles would probably be a later-game thing, since it seems the game will expect player to fight his way out of Galatia.  It would be nice if player can start full commerce like in other games (whether trading or smuggling commodities, or ferrying passengers).

[FooF]

If there is an issue with cargo ships (and I'm not saying there is), it's that they are not directly assailable in most combat situations. They typically get held back in most fights and its only after the combat ships are dealt with do you even have a crack at taking down the loot pinatas.

I suggested this in the blog post/dev post (not sure which) but making non-combat ships points of interest in-combat seems the way to go. You could go a variety of ways with this but if non-combat ships boosted your combat ships when deployed, that might give the player (and AI) an incentive to put them on the front lines. They could be be passive/zone of control buffs, do in-combat repair/rearm missiles, increase CR, etc. However, since they're relatively unarmed and easily destroyed, you have to devote ships to protecting/escorting them. If the in-combat buffs were significant enough, targeting the more fragile support ships may be the key to victory in a given fight. This gives frigates and fast picket ships a role in late-game battles where the capitals tend to dominate.

Of course, this alters combat dramatically, which I wouldn't expect at this stage of development.

[Megas]

If there is an issue with cargo ships (and I'm not saying there is), it's that they are not directly assailable in most combat situations. They typically get held back in most fights and its only after the combat ships are dealt with do you even have a crack at taking down the loot pinatas.

Remember that players that venture beyond core need their tankers.  If tankers can be targeted, raided, and destroyed, then you will lose much of your fleet because you cannot carry enough to support your fleet.  Meanwhile, the world can spawn as many NPCs as it wants and if one dies, the game can simply make another.

[Cyan Leader]

It's hard to promote cargo ships too much when the game's core focus is on combat. They lose most of their appeal when killing others is such a big important part of the game. That said, I wouldn't mind some (drastic?) changes to make using them more desirable. Straight up zero deployment cost could work. You could get away with this by saying that civilian/cargo ships don't need the same sort of preparation military ships do and the impact would be that those lightly armed ships that you don't want to ever deploy might actually be appealing now if you are willing to risk them.

But going back to the original argument, I don't think cargo fleets is something that Alex is thinking of promoting. There're too many gameplay mechanics that are directly tied to combat and if you want to succeed in it you will need to use military ships and fleets in one way or another.

[Megas]

Straight up zero deployment cost could work.

Not with Converted Hangar around.  Buffalo and Tarsus fleet with Converted Hangar can do serious damage.

[Eji1700]

Straight up zero deployment cost could work.

Not with Converted Hangar around.  Buffalo and Tarsus fleet with Converted Hangar can do serious damage.

Actually on that note I think more mods like converted hanger would help a lot.  Right now it's literally the only way to get another weapon slot on a ship.  I'd love to see something specific to civilian hulls only that adds one or two weapon slots, although I can see that being a pain to code

[Linnis]

Civilian ships need to appear in more in combat either as combatants or targets to be protected or raided. Turning them combat capable by virtue of cheaper deployment support fodder is a round about way of doing it.

I have always been saying we need a system where players and AI can raid fleets. The smaller fleets can choose to attack/destroy the support ships where the large fleet had to defend them.

There are many ways to do such a thing but it be a great way for even endgame to be running around small fleets.

[Cyan Leader]

Straight up zero deployment cost could work.

Not with Converted Hangar around.  Buffalo and Tarsus fleet with Converted Hangar can do serious damage.

Just limit that feature to 3-6 ships max and it'd be good enough. There could be some cheese but it's not like the game doesn't have some already.

In fact, I can see this working as a skill pretty well. "Can deploy X civilian grade hull ships without paying for deployment costs".