Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[TaLaR]

I didn't dispute that, in fact I've said before how I didn't like Plasma Burn because it feels like a discount Plasma Jets rather than a system of its own merit. In the same way the Medusa does not feel like an "Elite" destroyer compared to the Shrike, rather the Shrike feels like a discount version of the Medusa. The only "saving grace" we can see so far is it can mount Medium Missiles instead of Energy.

Oh, I see. "Elite" is a hard label to stick when we get accustomized to seeing best-in-class as baseline (in Medusa's case for player-piloting only).
"saving grace" indeed, sabots are powerful (what else is worth putting into medium missile on ballistic-less ship?), but relying on limited resources like that pushes Shrike even farther from player-ship position.

[SCC]

Shrike's got what, 2 medium synergy and 5 small energy mounts? I doubt it has enough flux to make good use of them. And what the hell is Desdinova anyway?

Medusa is elite only when piloted by player and (ab)using phase skimmer to the max. In terms of straight firepower it is much weaker than Hammerhead (that uses better ballistic weapons and a system to boost them even farther).

That's more of an issue with energy weapons than anything.

[TaLaR]

Shrike's got what, 2 medium synergy and 5 small energy mounts? I doubt it has enough flux to make good use of them. And what the hell is Desdinova anyway?

Medusa is elite only when piloted by player and (ab)using phase skimmer to the max. In terms of straight firepower it is much weaker than Hammerhead (that uses better ballistic weapons and a system to boost them even farther).

That's more of an issue with energy weapons than anything.

Desdinova is a DE from Blackrock mod.

Energy weapons are balanced around being sub-par (outside of few specialist weapons like AM-blaster for phase frigates or TL for Sunder/Paragon/0.8 Odyssey). If they were as good as ballistics (and no other changes anywhere), low and med-tech ships would be pointless.

[Cyan Leader]

Hum.. I think it will boil down to how good the system is. When I opened the thread I was thinking of the Desdinova because of how acceleration/momentum is important for that ship, but while reading this thread I recalled how you lose all of that with this new system once the burst ends. Maybe if it can have 6 charges in total with a decent refresh rate it can compete with the skimmer?

[Megas]

Ok, I guess there are 3 ways then.
Big difference with Hyperion bypass is that here we are exploiting stupid behavior (bad prioritization of incoming threats), while Hyperion bypass is harder to prevent - either you need to keep shield down and perfectly react OR keep shield up always, at full 360. Both options have significant costs outside of 1v1. Trying to re-raise as AI does is pointless, as there is a delay. Similar considerations for phase frigate shield bypass.

That is why I call it dirty.  It is not practical in a typical fleet battle.

Energy weapons are balanced around being sub-par (outside of few specialist weapons like AM-blaster for phase frigates or TL for Sunder/Paragon/0.8 Odyssey). If they were as good as ballistics (and no other changes anywhere), low and med-tech ships would be pointless.

Which stinks for midline ships as some have more mounts than OP or flux to support, and energy mounts are an easy choice to leave empty (or fill with cheap filler while ballistics get the good stuff) while ballistics are a no-brainer to fill.  Energy weapons should have some advantage.  I liked that in the version when ballistics had clips, energy weapons had an obvious sustained DPS advantage over ballistics.  (Not that I liked clips, but energy weapons had a point.)  Even then, I still preferred ballistics, but energy weapons were worthwhile then.  Now, most energy weapons are clearly inferior to ballistics.

Re: Elite
Among destroyer warships, there is a three-way tie between Enforcer, Hammerhead, and Medusa.  In pre-0.8, it was two-way between Enforcer and Medusa, while Hammerhead had OP shortage and Ammo Feeder system was a suicide button (because back then, flux built up faster and flux was easily maxed before it wore off, and AI could not manage it), not to mention small energy mounts instead of hybrids before the latter were introduced.  For a destroyer to be elite, it needs to be comparable to current Drover.

[Thaago]

I would say that currently destroyers are Hammerhead> Sunder = Medusa >>>> Enforcer. Enforcers are good in junk fleets because they pack missiles and enough OP for a converted hanger - things which aren't degraded by D mods and can be stacked to great and deadly effect. But they are slow, have terrible shields, and low ballistic firepower, making them outclassed by everything they can catch except for civilian vessels.

I would like energy assault weapons to be rebalanced, which would also require a pretty big tuning of the flux stats on high tech ships. Also just a single no-gimmick large slot energy weapon that could fill the "I need some damn dps" role would be nice.

[TaLaR]

I would say that currently destroyers are Hammerhead> Sunder = Medusa >>>> Enforcer. Enforcers are good in junk fleets because they pack missiles and enough OP for a converted hanger - things which aren't degraded by D mods and can be stacked to great and deadly effect. But they are slow, have terrible shields, and low ballistic firepower, making them outclassed by everything they can catch except for civilian vessels.

AI:
Hammerhead is simple - either it has enough firepower to overwhelm the enemy or not. Which is why it so good for AI.
In AI vs AI with both being decently optimized Enforcer performs quite close to Hammerhead. Though I guess significant part is that "rotate to distribute armor damage" behavior helps Enforcer, but hampers Hammerhead. Another reason is that Hammerhead suffers more from converted hangar Talons (even if both bring them, they are harder to afford for Hammerhead and easier to counter with Enforcer flaks).
Then again, there is something to improve about Enforcer behavior too - it could do better with more aggressive play, just forcing armor trades to the end, without allowing multiple vent cycles.
EDIT: after running a few more fights - I guess Enforcer winning is a rare fluke after all, at least outside of Sabot build.

AI is not capable of piloting Sunder and Medusa well enough to make it worth doing. They are only good when making full use of their ship systems.

Player:
For player-piloting Medusa is better at fighting direct combat cruisers, catching frigates and just being generally elusive. While Hammerhead is much better against carriers.

TL Optics Sunder is good at DE vs DE (trivial vs Enforcer, impossible/stalemate vs anti-soft-flux optimized Medusa) and hunting frigates, but can't do much against any cruisers (not enough soft flux damage output). AP Sunder is just a Hammerhead wannabe, so what's the point?

Enforcer... Anything it can do, player-piloted Hammerhead can do better. Except sabot spam.

[lethargie]

Relative balance of existing destroyer is also linked to the existing weapons. If next update modify either weapon balance or add weapon all discussion about "ship" balance goes kinda out of the window. The same could be said of AI.
If escort meant "support" instead of "throw your flux maxed medusa in front of the enemy paragon to save my onslaught's armor" Ship like the medusa could do wonder swatting smaller ship from the back of slower ones.

We also have to look at what we are using them for. I found Advanced Optic TL sunder far more useful in large engagement than hammerhead, they could support without throwing themselves in the way. But of course this is the result of a particular AI/Weapon intersection and not intrinsic to the ship.

[Embolism]

I feel the Shrike would feel more "right" if it had Phase Skimmer, and Medusa receive Plasma Jets. Reasons being 1. the Shrike is more comparable to the Wolf than the Medusa is and 2. a weaker ship should at least pretend to have a mobility advantage. Yes Phase Skimmer is comparable to Plasma Jets but at least it's not almost strictly inferior like Plasma Burn is: Plasma Burn is for a ship too powerful to have a better system (Odyssey), not for a ship that's already weak to begin with.

As an aside I don't feel HEF fits Tempest very well, I think it gives it way too much firepower compared to other high tech frigates (Hyperion is supposed to be top dog dammit, though it's more of a showpiece ever since it got the Phase Teleporter). Plasma Burn might fit here... for the same reason Odyssey can't have Plasma Jets, the Tempest is already top tier enough that it can afford to take a discount system.

[lethargie]

The Tempest is already the fastest frigate bar the Hyperion I think. Giving it a mobility system would just make it even more awful to try to catch.

If the base speed of the shrike is fast enough, a quick burst of speed is all it need. It could be pretty fun to hunt frigate with.
 Ship that can broadside are usually useless in large engagement because the AI can't use them properly though, so that's really what worry me most.

[Megas]

Tempest has the fastest base and burn speeds.  Other ships need phase or systems to go faster on the field.  Without teleporter, Hyperion is slower.

High Energy Focus is fairly ordinary, no better than ammo feeder for ballistics.  Actually, HEF on Tempest makes it the good counterpart to Glimmer (The Remnant omni-shield Wolf that has HEF instead of Skimmer).

Plasma Burn is for a ship too powerful to have a better system (Odyssey)

That is funny.  Odyssey is weak compared to every other combat capital, and the one tool it has to somewhat compete at their level (backpedaling with triple tachyon lances) will be taken away (no more three turret overlap).

I feel the Shrike would feel more "right" if it had Phase Skimmer, and Medusa receive Plasma Jets.

I like to test drive the ship first.

[Embolism]

Plasma Burn is for a ship too powerful to have a better system (Odyssey)

That is funny.  Odyssey is weak compared to every other combat capital, and the one tool it has to somewhat compete at their level (backpedaling with triple tachyon lances) will be taken away (no more three turret overlap).

Didn't we have this very conversation on another thread where you argued Plasma Jets on Odyssey would be too powerful?

Context is king.

[Megas]

@ Embolism: Yes for Plasma Jets, but Plasma Jets and Plasma Burn are different abilities.

Plasma Jets would be too powerful because Odyssey can backpedal from everything quickly like Aurora can while sniping with lances, although it will not do much good with only two lances instead of three.  Then again, with Hardened Subsystems, it can play the waiting game and beat anything with less peak performance.

Plasma Burn, which the Odyssey will trade High Energy Focus for, only lets it charge forward, where it will get clobbered by an enemy capital that is not itself (or Onslaught if outmaneuvered), thanks to terrible defenses.

[SCC]

I feel the Shrike would feel more "right" if it had Phase Skimmer, and Medusa receive Plasma Jets.

There's little difference between skimmer and plasma jets, mainly that one gets invulnerability frames and the other does not. Plasma burn doesn't allow you to evade using it, so it's more similar to burn drive.

[Alex]

(Side note: it's not a broadside ship, it's just capable of bringing most of its firepower to bear on either side, giving it more freedom to maneuver.)