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[zeno]

Now, let's imagine if there was a new large energy weapon that has the following stats:

Range: 600
DPS: 600
Flux/s: 400
OP:20-24

The hypothetical stats are a bit off but what you're describing sounds like the heavy blaster. Which i use on brawling odyssey already. Best part is it's about half the op cost you're suggesting so the extra op can be put into vent to get what you want.

No, the heavy blaster costs nearly twice as flux as what I'm describing.  Loading up on heavy blaster has the same problem as plasma, the terrible flux efficiency means you cap yourself out before break the opponent's tank.  With what I'm describing, you're paying an OP premium and the opportunity cost of a large mount for much more efficient close range weapon.

[Grievous69]

Love how every topic about high-tech stuff before 0.8 turned into a discussion about Aurora, now that Aurora has been fixed we're bullying Odyssey in every thread.

Anyways since Alex said it's a fragile destroyer it'll definitely have bad shields for a high-tech ship and I assume not good enough flux stats to put any 2 energy mediums hitting for hard flux. After all it's a light destroyer so it makes sense. Personally I'm not a huge fan of missile weapons but they're probably gonna be really good on Shrike if it ends up being a not expensive ship with a low-ish DP cost.

[Embolism]

I think the Shrike is great, but its dynamic with the Medusa feels a bit... off. It makes the Medusa seem beefier by comparison (as the Medusa seems to be larger, better armed and presumably has superior staying power in terms of flux and shields), when it's supposed to be... well, what the Shrike is described as being; relative to other tech levels.

Nothing wrong with that. Just a thought.

Now if the Medusa is considered too elite to be a "common" destroyer, will Aurora get the same treatment...? Will we get non-brick versions of the Enforcer and Dominator? Will we finally get a non-Capital high tech carrier!?

Ahem.

[Gothars]

Will we finally get a non-Capital high tech carrier!?

The Hyperion's teleport would be really cool on a fragile high tech carrier. Come in behind the enemy and launch a bomber run in its rear. That makes me think of a Cylon Bastestar!

[Embolism]

Will we finally get a non-Capital high tech carrier!?

The Hyperion's teleport would be really cool on a fragile high tech carrier. Come in behind the enemy and launch a bomber run in its rear. That makes me think of a Cylon Bastestar!

I can see a 1x wing high tech destroyer carrier with the Phase Teleporter (or rather a nerfed version that isn't as spammable), provided running out of combat readiness also disables strike craft! Would have be really really rare though, doesn't really fill the non-Capital high tech carrier niche.

The Heron already fits high tech doctrine to a T really. Perhaps we could just get a Heron (TT) with an obligatory Synergy mount instead of Universal and better flux stats (P.S. please give the TT Brawler better flux stats).

[Megas]

Now, let's imagine if there was a new large energy weapon that has the following stats:

Range: 600
DPS: 600
Flux/s: 400
OP:20-24

The new Odyssey would suddenly be a beast.  It can't do much when it's far away, but if you let it close in, it'll pretty much be murder.

P.S. More on topic, did anyone notice a difference in the Sabot?  It seems that stage 1 travels much faster now.

I prefer to make plasma cannon more usable.

The shield nerf really hurt Odyssey.  It could not tank very well with 0.8 shields, and now it gets popped easily with 1.0 shields if Odyssey cannot avoid enemies.  Other battlecruisers smash Odyssey as easily as other battleships can.  The only way Odyssey can compete with other capitals is to constantly backpedal while sniping with three lances, and that will be taken away.  I agree with Retry that it has poor OP.  It did not have much OP with one fighter bay.  It did not get more OP when it received its second bay, and it is OP starved.

I never thought of Medusa as being elite ever since it got peak performance and ballistics becoming unlimited.  It is roughly on or slightly above par with Enforcer and Hammerhead.

Shrike being "common" could mean most factions use it like they use Wolf.  It would be annoying if Medusa becomes as rare as Tempest, or worse, Hyperion or Scarab.

The Heron already fits high tech doctrine to a T really. Perhaps we could just get a Heron (TT) with an obligatory Synergy mount instead of Universal and better flux stats.

All it needs to be high-tech is a blue paint job.  It would be nice if it had a bit more OP.

[TaLaR]

Now if the Medusa is considered too elite to be a "common" destroyer, will Aurora get the same treatment...? Will we get non-brick versions of the Enforcer and Dominator? Will we finally get a non-Capital high tech carrier!?

Medusa is elite only when piloted by player and (ab)using phase skimmer to the max. In terms of straight firepower it is much weaker than Hammerhead (that uses better ballistic weapons and a system to boost them even farther).

[Megas]

Not to mention Medusa needs rare weapons to be good.  Hammerhead can do fine with weapons commonly found at Open Market and pirates' Black Market.

[Goumindong]

Autopulse:
Good-alpha, low flux, but no real sustain. The problem is that alpha isn't high enough to crack capital shield/armor, and sustain isn't enough to pressure the enemy.

With extended magazines a full burst of 2 Autopulse produces 10,800 damage before skills. (36 shots in 3 seconds). The current odyssey can do 1.5 of that for 16,200 damage. It won’t break a paragon alone but that is only 2 guns on the ship. And as soon as you’re on the side you’ve got a raw gun advantage.

I tend to setup with 2 Autopulse / 1 plasma cannon for brawling. You come in, pop some sabots, unload the auto-pulse, then side swap to the plasma cannon to finish off the target while the auto-pulses recharge. With the ability to get in range faster and not have to dink around at longer ranges may mean that you’re no longer at such a significant flux disadvantage before you start firing even if you’re not quite as bursty/efficient when shooting.

[TaLaR]

Autopulse:
Good-alpha, low flux, but no real sustain. The problem is that alpha isn't high enough to crack capital shield/armor, and sustain isn't enough to pressure the enemy.

With extended magazines a full burst of 2 Autopulse produces 10,800 damage before skills. (36 shots in 3 seconds). The current odyssey can do 1.5 of that for 16,200 damage. It won’t break a paragon alone but that is only 2 guns on the ship. And as soon as you’re on the side you’ve got a raw gun advantage.

I tend to setup with 2 Autopulse / 1 plasma cannon for brawling. You come in, pop some sabots, unload the auto-pulse, then side swap to the plasma cannon to finish off the target while the auto-pulses recharge. With the ability to get in range faster and not have to dink around at longer ranges may mean that you’re no longer at such a significant flux disadvantage before you start firing even if you’re not quite as bursty/efficient when shooting.

But you still have nothing to impress said Paragon with. 3 large not overlapping slots + some small (up to 6 at same time, I think) vs 4 large + 2 kinetic ballistics and lesser stuff not worth mentioning, from more distance and backed up by better flux and shield stats. And it's impossible to burst a Paragon due to fortress shield, you'd need to fire autopulses manually at reduced rate, while Plasma and Sabot will be blocked for cheap.

1v1 and without character skills advantage, Odyssey has no chance whatsoever outside of exploiting shield drop behavior with TLs.

[Megas]

Dirty ways Odyssey can beat Paragon in a duel:
* Odyssey has Hardened Subsystems, stock Paragon does not.  Odyssey kites and stalls until Paragon hits 0 CR first, then Odyssey kills crippled and shieldless Paragon.

* Odyssey fires Salamanders from long range.  Approach to force Paragon to raise shield at front.  Paragon lowers shield then raises it at the rear to block Salamanders.  Odyssey blasts Paragon while shield is in the rear.  Backpedal until Paragon drops shields altogether.  Repeat for the next attack run.  Very similar to Hyperion shield bypass cheese.

No way Odyssey can win in a fair fight.  At least Conquest has a chance with Gauss and Maulers, and Legion with full fighter backup can do it too, although Paragon is still an uphill battle for those two.

@ TaLaR: Odyssey can only aim four smalls (middle, right, two left) at the same time with the three larges for seven overlap.  I put four tacticals in those four turrets.  If all four tacs fire at one target, then all three larges can be fired at it as well.  Wait, you mean 0.9 Odyssey?  Nevermind.

[Embolism]

Re: Medusa being elite or not.... that's what I meant when I said its dynamic with the Shrike is weird. It feels like it's meant to be like Wolf vs Tempest, but Medusa doesn't feel special like the Tempest does; and it also shares its system with the "common" Wolf. I think Medusa needs considerably more to justify the Shrike elbowing it out of most fleets.

[Megas]

Medusa feels little more than a bigger Wolf, and Wolf is simply the basic high-tech frigate.  Shrike, not sure what to make of it.  I would say like Remnant, but Remnants tend to be more like high-tech bricks, with less speed but tough shields and high peak performance (high enough to outlast everything that is not of the Enforcer/Dominator/Onslaught series).

I would say that it would be nice if low-tech had a second combat destroyer, but then again, high-tech has no sub-capital carriers (unless you include Remnant's Scintilla or the high-tech-in-midline's clothing Heron).

[TaLaR]

Re: Medusa being elite or not.... that's what I meant when I said its dynamic with the Shrike is weird. It feels like it's meant to be like Wolf vs Tempest, but Medusa doesn't feel special like the Tempest does; and it also shares its system with the "common" Wolf. I think Medusa needs considerably more to justify the Shrike elbowing it out of most fleets.

But skimmer is clearly the superior system. It's instantly initiated, has invulnerability frames and can change direction much faster than time it would take for Shrike to rotate, without compromising ship facing in process.

Shrike's system inferior in every way, except maybe recharge rate. Why else would it be ok on a capital, while skimmer is deemed too good for that.
By vanilla standards anyway, Shadowyards Mimir has heavy skimmer system (slower recharge, longer jump distance), and it is as good as one would expect - now that is high-tech brawler capital that Odyssey could never be.

Dirty ways Odyssey can beat Paragon in a duel:
* Odyssey has Hardened Subsystems, stock Paragon does not.  Odyssey kites and stalls until Paragon hits 0 CR first, then Odyssey kills crippled and shieldless Paragon.

* Odyssey fires Salamanders from long range.  Approach to force Paragon to raise shield at front.  Paragon lowers shield then raises it at the rear to block Salamanders.  Odyssey blasts Paragon while shield is in the rear.  Backpedal until Paragon drops shields altogether.  Repeat for the next attack run.  Very similar to Hyperion shield bypass cheese.

Ok, I guess there are 3 ways then.
Big difference with Hyperion bypass is that here we are exploiting stupid behavior (bad prioritization of incoming threats), while Hyperion bypass is harder to prevent - either you need to keep shield down and perfectly react OR keep shield up always, at full 360. Both options have significant costs outside of 1v1. Trying to re-raise as AI does is pointless, as there is a delay. Similar considerations for phase frigate shield bypass.

Medusa feels little more than a bigger Wolf, and Wolf is simply the basic high-tech frigate.

It does fix Wolf's main problem of being unable to effectively handle shields by adding universal slots for railguns/needlers, beside being straight shield/flux upgrade. I mean what else could you improve without going full Desdinova (cruiser-level firepower with excellent mobility).

[Embolism]

But skimmer is clearly the superior system. It's instantly initiated, has invulnerability frames and can change direction much faster than time it would take for Shrike to rotate, without compromising ship facing in process.

Shrike's system inferior in every way, except maybe recharge rate. Why else would it be ok on a capital, while skimmer is deemed too good for that.
By vanilla standards anyway, Shadowyards Mimir has heavy skimmer system (slower recharge, longer jump distance), and it is as good as one would expect - now that is high-tech brawler capital that Odyssey could never be.

I didn't dispute that, in fact I've said before how I didn't like Plasma Burn because it feels like a discount Plasma Jets rather than a system of its own merit. In the same way the Medusa does not feel like an "Elite" destroyer compared to the Shrike, rather the Shrike feels like a discount version of the Medusa. The only "saving grace" we can see so far is it can mount Medium Missiles instead of Energy.