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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: 'Engage as formation' mode for carriers  (Read 4621 times)

TaLaR

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'Engage as formation' mode for carriers
« on: September 18, 2018, 12:07:11 AM »

Leave current 'Engage asap' mode as is, and add as separate 'Engage as formation', tweak-able at design time.

Formation would be defined by:
1) Max distance to get ahead of previous step in formation:
Broadsword have speed of 200, Flash bombers 170 - they are closest thing to naturally occurring formation in game as is. And yet Broadswords would get too far ahead of Flashes, if target is too far away. Would be nice, if you could leash them some 100-200 range ahead of Flashes with transition to full speed attack at set range per formation step (you could always fine tune by switching to 'engage asap' manually). Before that formation travels at speed of slowest fighter wing.

2) Spacing within formation step.
Tight - Medium - Wide. (Either space to next wing within formation step, or distance from center if single and offset).

3) Offset of formation step.
Center - Side (whatever is closer from current position, just avoid center) - Other side than behind formation step - Other side than ahead formation step (2 ways to make it possible for slower fighter wing to pick closest, while faster one adapts to it).

4) Distance at which current step will break formation and switch to normal engage

So example formation could look like (6x, Astral):
- Wide, Any side, Break at 1000: 1x Broadsword. Offset left of right to the max - to prevent missing fire from hitting other fighters. (Suffers the brunt of long ranged fire, they are the cheapest + carry flares)
--200 space
- Medium, Center, Break at 1000: 2x Flash. (Deploy mines while Broadswords provide distraction, medium spacing to  better protect other fighters and avoid lumping)
--100 space
- Tight, Center, Break at 1000: 2x Longbow. They more or less want to hit center, where shield is most likely to be present. (Hide behind mines, fire sabots safely)
--100 or more space
- Wide, Any side, Break at 1000: 1x Dagger. Offset left of right to the max - shields deploy from dead center on front shield ships, side shots have chance to bypass.  (Fire Atropos timed to arrive roughly after sabots hit, while enjoying mine protection for self and Atropos in flight)

This is somewhat similar to what happens with this fighter set naturally, but Daggers fire Atropos too early, Longbows risk by getting ahead of Flashes and Broadswords can goo too far ahead if target is far. So it's very much not ideal.

Or (6x, Astral)):
- Wide, Any side, Break at 1000: 1x Broadsword. (same distraction as above)
--200 space
- Wide, Center, Break at 500: 5x Flashes. (Bomb the enemy from frontal cone and maybe even sides instead of single lump, deny as much area as possible)

Or (2x):
- Wide, Any side, Break at 1000: 1x Broadsword. (same distraction as above)
-- 200 space
- Wide, Other side than ahead step, Break at 1000: 1x Claw (exploit opening created by Broadswords on other side)

Or (2x):
- Wide, Any side, Break at 100: 1x Claw
-- 0 space
- Wide, Other side than ahead step, Break at 100: 1x Claw
Same thing, depends on implementation which would be preferable:
- Wide, Center, Break at 100: 2x Claw

(simultaneous attack from sides to bypass non 360 shields. 1st configuration looks somewhat awkward, but you get the idea. Break distance needs to apply to either wings themselves or formation step center, whatever is closer)

These 3 scenarios just do not happen naturally.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 12:50:43 AM by TaLaR »
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Alex

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Re: 'Engage as formation' mode for carriers
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2018, 11:02:29 AM »

Thank you for the suggestion! It spurred some thinking which in turn spurred this:

https://twitter.com/amosolov/status/1042461390068494336
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Deshara

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Re: 'Engage as formation' mode for carriers
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2018, 11:06:36 AM »

corresponding fighter power nerf in 5, 4, 3...
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CrashToDesktop

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Re: 'Engage as formation' mode for carriers
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2018, 11:46:41 AM »

Mmm, surprising turn of events.  Wasn't expecting something so quickly. :) Hurrah!

I absolutely adore that first GIF.  The Longbows peel off after they launcher their sabot missiles to reveal a wing of Daggers coming in to finish the job.  Absolutely terrifying how well-coordinated they turned out to be!
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 12:01:07 PM by The Soldier »
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TaLaR

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Re: 'Engage as formation' mode for carriers
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2018, 12:00:09 PM »

Fighters have gone really long way from role-playing migratory geese to competent wing tactics :)
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Gothars

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Re: 'Engage as formation' mode for carriers
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2018, 01:01:59 PM »

role-playing migratory geese

 ;D


Awesome!
Running the danger of repeating myself from twitter: Wouldn't this be awesome as special behavior you unlock via fighter command skills? It would be so nice to be able to actually see the result of a skill, instead of it being hidden behind numbers.
Although I'd understand if you'd want everybody to see this cool show all the time, Alex^^
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Thaago

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Re: 'Engage as formation' mode for carriers
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2018, 01:08:01 PM »

Wow, that looks great! I'm guessing that the offsets that you mentioned on the twitter comments are defined in the fighter csv?
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Gothars

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Re: 'Engage as formation' mode for carriers
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2018, 01:13:01 PM »

Wow, that looks great! I'm guessing that the offsets that you mentioned on the twitter comments are defined in the fighter csv?

Yup:

Quote
Yeah, it's a value in wing_data.csv. Since Sabots get launched at a certain range, travel at a certain speed, etc, this coordination is just achieved by having the right offsets for the bombers. It's not always this on point but it's fairly representative.
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Retry

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Re: 'Engage as formation' mode for carriers
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2018, 02:39:29 PM »

Wow, that was really fast.
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FooF

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Re: 'Engage as formation' mode for carriers
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2018, 03:01:30 PM »

Dang.

That's, like, really cool.

I think Gothars is actually on to something though with fighter coordination being skill-based. It's sort of like better auto-aim accuracy or target leading: your carriers get better at using their fighters via coordination. I wouldn't mind if all fighter behavior was like this but I wouldn't mind seeing a gradient in fighter effectiveness that isn't just numbers-based.
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Alex

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Re: 'Engage as formation' mode for carriers
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2018, 06:11:52 PM »

... role-playing migratory geese ...

Harsh! ... but possibly fair. And at least funny.

Running the danger of repeating myself from twitter: Wouldn't this be awesome as special behavior you unlock via fighter command skills? It would be so nice to be able to actually see the result of a skill, instead of it being hidden behind numbers.
Although I'd understand if you'd want everybody to see this cool show all the time, Alex^^

I think Gothars is actually on to something though with fighter coordination being skill-based. It's sort of like better auto-aim accuracy or target leading: your carriers get better at using their fighters via coordination. I wouldn't mind if all fighter behavior was like this but I wouldn't mind seeing a gradient in fighter effectiveness that isn't just numbers-based.

Hmm. So this kind of feels more like a core behavior to me. If it's tied to a skill, then it makes a lot of things tougher. Balancing gets trickier. It also gets more difficult for me to spot problems, as it's one more thing that can be on or off - meaning 99% of my testing will happen in one of those two states.

But the main thing is in addition to being a power boost to fighters, I think it's also a gameplay improvement. With this, fighters become more consistent in effectiveness, there are more viable combinations, and it's a mechanic that's more satisfying to interact with. Locking that away behind a skill feels wrong.

There's possibly a middle ground here with having it be sort of like autofire aim, though, where it's not on/off but operates with varying levels of precision...
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Megas

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Re: 'Engage as formation' mode for carriers
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2018, 06:23:06 PM »

I agree with Alex.  It is like breathing.  You do not have skills for breathing, unless the game is a parody.
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Cosmitz

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Re: 'Engage as formation' mode for carriers
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2018, 07:01:52 AM »

Help. I want to fly carriers now. This looks great. :D
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Histidine

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Re: 'Engage as formation' mode for carriers
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2018, 07:15:54 AM »

How tight are the tolerances on this system?

Like, hopefully modders aren't expected to spend hours tweaking wing offsets to make sure the different ordnance arrives at exactly the right time (and the player mixing fighter wings from different mods would likely muck it up completely). Will it work properly with the Wing Commander 1 fighter speed boost and/or Strike Commander 1 missile speed boost?
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Megas

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Re: 'Engage as formation' mode for carriers
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2018, 07:22:22 AM »

Wing Commander 1... I want it badly for Warthogs and bombers.  I almost do not want it on Thunders (they do not handle the extra speed well, though not as badly as prior releases).
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