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Author Topic: The Wasp sucks  (Read 3742 times)

Retry

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Re: The Wasp sucks
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2018, 03:56:04 PM »

whole problem with "weak" fighters in general is that they are simply too easy to hit. what made fighters effective in ages gone by was that "midcaliber"+ weaponry was almost entirely uneffective due to the fact that autoaim accuracy wasn't being boosted by skills and hull mods (maybe hull mods depending on ver.) now that HVM can pluck fighters out of the air at 4x the fighters' own range anything that isn't shielded/phase/etc is too vulnerable.

what makes fighters redeemable now is perhaps strike strength (weaponry power) and localized superiority (many carriers vs. one ship) wasps in particular are not good because in any reasonable sized engagement they die instantly because of weaponry accuracy. to offset the capital ship gains in accuracy you're going to have to either 1. massively rebalance accuracy, firepower, range on everything else or 2. increase wasp health, add shields, or basically re-add their ability to evade incoming fire (somehow) the game is "balanced" now because anti-capital weaponry is effective against fighters but PD isn't.. which doesn't make any sense to me.

personally i think this area needs a significant looking glass placed on it. PD weaponry needs to be enhanced to be more effective, especially at protecting more than ownship, while capital weaponry needs to stop being effective at stopping fighter wing(s) once PD is in a better place and capital weaponry isn't shredding every fighter wing in it's pretty significant standoff ranges, you can look at what fighters need more closely imo.

Accuracy was always a problem only in small skirmishes. When fighters cover whole frontal cone, and your fire density is about the same, you are going to hit alright.
The only way for fighters to have good avoidance without explicit cheat abilities (like % miss chance) would be giving them bullet-hell-player level AI and maybe improving acceleration on top of that.
Still won't save them from a TL though.

Hmm... I'm usually not a big fan of RNG-related stats for a game like this, but maybe an evasion sort of stat wouldn't be too bad of an idea here, with "missed" shots going above or below the fighter.  Something like a Reaper or Hellbore could have a close to, or exactly, 0% hit chance against fighters which could be helpful for the occassional "Talon soaks up your entire high-flux shot of doom" thing, while PD or anti-fighter specialized weapons like Thumpers and PD lasers could have 100% or close to 100% hit chance, like it is now.  In-between weapons like autocannons or IR pulse lasers could be in-between the two extremes.  Maybe this could be applied to frigates or phase ships or small destroyers, but on a much smaller scale.  It could give a pseudo-3D feel to this 2D space game if done right, of course doing it right would be the problem and it'd take some time to change the combat mechanics if at all possible in the first place.
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: The Wasp sucks
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2018, 05:34:45 PM »

That sounds like a stupid amount of work and a massive mess to balance just to add something that majorly clashes with SS's combat arch-type. Nothing is really random in combat and stuff that is, isn't an "all or nothing" bet like this would be
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Re: The Wasp sucks
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2018, 06:02:46 PM »

That sounds like a stupid amount of work and a massive mess to balance just to add something that majorly clashes with SS's combat arch-type. Nothing is really random in combat and stuff that is, isn't an "all or nothing" bet like this would be
It certainly would be a huge amount of work, not necessarily a huge mess to balance though as with its simplest you can make large weapons like aforementioned Reapers, Hellbores and such miss 100% of the time and the smaller/medium-sized weapons hit near 100% or exactly 100% of the time.

I was originally going to suggest an evasion stat that reduced damage by a % (similar to armor) for fighters instead of flat-out dodging but I nixed that since it'd likely make the whole Talons tanking Plasma/Reaper/Hellbore shots thing even more infuriating.

As far as nothing being truly random in combat that is flat-out wrong, but I'd rather not derail the discussion further.
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Cik

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Re: The Wasp sucks
« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2018, 07:25:52 PM »

That sounds like a stupid amount of work and a massive mess to balance just to add something that majorly clashes with SS's combat arch-type. Nothing is really random in combat and stuff that is, isn't an "all or nothing" bet like this would be

there are plenty of things that are random in combat unless you believe that this is a deterministic universe, in which case nothing is random.

probability of kill / malfunction etc. are all expressed as random chances in studies about combat my man.

but ultimately adding evasion to fighters might be helpful in balancing them and more feasible than simply making them touhou-capable platforms which would probably melt most CPUs in any large size fight (though i might be wrong about this)

it's probably more feasible than simply giving them more health, because giving them more health would result in a bunch of knock-on effects like needing to increase PD damage which might make PD then viable assault weapons which might skew game balance towards close assault etc. etc.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 07:34:05 PM by Cik »
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TaLaR

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Re: The Wasp sucks
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2018, 10:58:03 PM »

but ultimately adding evasion to fighters might be helpful in balancing them and more feasible than simply making them touhou-capable platforms which would probably melt most CPUs in any large size fight (though i might be wrong about this)

Touhou fighters would be very cool though, even if likely unfeasible.
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Megas

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Re: The Wasp sucks
« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2018, 06:49:54 AM »

Evasion has been suggested before, and I still think it is a bad idea.  I probably would feel like punching the screen or smashing the keyboard if I see something like a perfectly aimed shot from a big gun pass through the fighter when such a clean hit displayed on the screen would obliterate it.
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Goumindong

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Re: The Wasp sucks
« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2018, 10:08:02 AM »

Fighters already avoid your own missiles and weapon shots so it’s not a stretch to have them avoid enemy shots.

Though ideally if there was evasion it would be relatively consistent rather than random.  Maybe have them avoid all weapons not targeted at them. (If it was size dependent a lot of ships would lose the ability to defend from fighters entirely)
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Techhead

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Re: The Wasp sucks
« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2018, 10:36:10 AM »

but ultimately adding evasion to fighters might be helpful in balancing them and more feasible than simply making them touhou-capable platforms which would probably melt most CPUs in any large size fight (though i might be wrong about this)

Touhou fighters would be very cool though, even if likely unfeasible.
This post inspired me to suggest that the other route to increasing a fighter's evasion would just be smaller hitboxes. Better than a random-chance "you actually missed" at least.
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