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Author Topic: Salvaging Mechanics Update  (Read 14281 times)

Alex

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Salvaging Mechanics Update
« on: September 06, 2018, 02:29:16 PM »

Blog post here.
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Eji1700

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Re: Salvaging Mechanics Update
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2018, 02:54:56 PM »

Good changes. Making the system easier to understand at a glance is a big improvement.

While we're at it are there any plans to give more of a purpose to salvage rigs outside of what basically equates to a salvage skill bonus?  I like the fleet composition is a thing tactically, but it's really really shallow strategically.  You basically have your fuel/cargo passive modifier ships (now with marines) and your battle ships, and that's basically it.

Support ships are worthless to the point of not existing tactically unless they're one of the few combat variants ( Gemini comes to mind), and there's really not much thought to how much space they take up in your fleet either, so the only other consideration comes with a few of the hull mods that provide fleet bonuses.  For example I was hoping we'd see a hull mod that lets you turn a salvage rig into a mobile refitting bay, lowering the supply cost of refitting when not at a planet (maybe only for smaller size ships).  Just something to make me give more thought to the support/logistics half of my fleet composition besides numbers.
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SCC

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Re: Salvaging Mechanics Update
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2018, 02:56:48 PM »

Quote
Two, Salvage Rigs only affect the various commodities found during salvage  – such as fuel and supplies – and not the more rare items.
Was that stated somewhere in the game? I can't remember. I always assumed it affects both commodities as well as hullmods and weapons. Bloody hell. I learned the other day that salvage rigs work only in specific circumstances and now my (false) understanding of salvaging has been completely undone.

Goumindong

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Re: Salvaging Mechanics Update
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2018, 02:59:36 PM »

Seems pretty good.

One of the things i liked as an idea was that the more you salvaged the more time it took on the campaign map. (So a burn drive restriction and a speed penalty after salvaging). Salvage rigs could reduce the duration of the penalty which would make it easier to salvage out from under enemies. Something a combat captain might not really care about (because getting attacked is more loot) but a specialist salvager (especially one looking to nick some "owned" salvage without anyone noticing)  might enjoy.
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Wyvern

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Re: Salvaging Mechanics Update
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2018, 03:02:15 PM »

Does that etcetera on things affected by salvage rigs include scuttling ships?

@Eji1700: I've wanted for some time to go through and (via mod) rebalance ships so that (aside from special cases like the rare pre-collapse Kite), every freighter is an at least vaguely-passable combat freighter, and the actual combat freighter designed ships (mule, apogee, wayfarer, etc.) are only marginally sub-optimal compared to straight-up combat ships.
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Megas

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Re: Salvaging Mechanics Update
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2018, 03:13:27 PM »

At least no debris field means I do not need to spam Salvage three or four times to get everything worth taking.  When I salvage, all I care about are the rare or special items that I cannot buy.
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Thaago

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Re: Salvaging Mechanics Update
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2018, 03:18:58 PM »

Looks good! I think having the bonus to the rare items being clear makes the choice much more impactful. I'm not sure if I would bring salvage rigs along at all, though stations do tend to give a lot of fuel/supplies, so it could keep the exploration trip going a long time... definitely something to think about.

How does scarcity vs repeat items factor into this? I get that there are a finite number of rare items in the game, but it doesn't actually benefit me to find 2 ITU's for example. I guess for everything thats not a hullmod, such as weapons and colony items, it would still be a long term benefit to have more of them.
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Alex

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Re: Salvaging Mechanics Update
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2018, 03:29:38 PM »

While we're at it are there any plans to give more of a purpose to salvage rigs outside of what basically equates to a salvage skill bonus?  I like the fleet composition is a thing tactically, but it's really really shallow strategically.  You basically have your fuel/cargo passive modifier ships (now with marines) and your battle ships, and that's basically it.

Not really, though I could see them giving a smaller bonus to post-battle salvage, now that diminishing returns are coded in. Hmm - maybe a fraction of the salvage operation bonus, say a quarter of it. Let me think about that a bit.

It's definitely not a salvage skill bonus, though, since it applies without the skill.


Quote
Two, Salvage Rigs only affect the various commodities found during salvage  – such as fuel and supplies – and not the more rare items.
Was that stated somewhere in the game? I can't remember. I always assumed it affects both commodities as well as hullmods and weapons. Bloody hell. I learned the other day that salvage rigs work only in specific circumstances and now my (false) understanding of salvaging has been completely undone.

... maybe? I'm not actually 100% sure. But in any case, all that really drives home the point re: the previous system having some unnecessary complications.

One of the things i liked as an idea was that the more you salvaged the more time it took on the campaign map. (So a burn drive restriction and a speed penalty after salvaging). Salvage rigs could reduce the duration of the penalty which would make it easier to salvage out from under enemies. Something a combat captain might not really care about (because getting attacked is more loot) but a specialist salvager (especially one looking to nick some "owned" salvage without anyone noticing)  might enjoy.

I hear what you're saying, but this seems like too much of a situational thing to really start doubling down on as an important mechanical point.


Does that etcetera on things affected by salvage rigs include scuttling ships?

No - again, seems situational and not necessarily good. There's no much room for scuttling to be both not completely awful and still worse than selling the ship; any boosts to its output are trouble.

Support ships are worthless to the point of not existing tactically unless they're one of the few combat variants ( Gemini comes to mind), and there's really not much thought to how much space they take up in your fleet either, so the only other consideration comes with a few of the hull mods that provide fleet bonuses.  For example I was hoping we'd see a hull mod that lets you turn a salvage rig into a mobile refitting bay, lowering the supply cost of refitting when not at a planet (maybe only for smaller size ships).  Just something to make me give more thought to the support/logistics half of my fleet composition besides numbers.

@Eji1700: I've wanted for some time to go through and (via mod) rebalance ships so that (aside from special cases like the rare pre-collapse Kite), every freighter is an at least vaguely-passable combat freighter, and the actual combat freighter designed ships (mule, apogee, wayfarer, etc.) are only marginally sub-optimal compared to straight-up combat ships.

Funny; I'd made some other changes that factor in here, but I don't want to talk about them because that's possibly another blog post :)

In addition, the Mule got a significant buff, and the Hound/Cerberus got a bit of one, too. Wasn't thinking about the Wayfarer; that might be worth another look too.


At least no debris field means I do not need to spam Salvage three or four times to get everything worth taking.  When I salvage, all I care about are the rare or special items that I cannot buy.

The debris field is still there post-salvage, it's just considerably less worth going through, and offhand I'd imagine doing it more than once would almost always be net-negative.


Looks good! I think having the bonus to the rare items being clear makes the choice much more impactful. I'm not sure if I would bring salvage rigs along at all, though stations do tend to give a lot of fuel/supplies, so it could keep the exploration trip going a long time... definitely something to think about.

Cool! That you're thinking whether bringing them along is worth it or not seems like a good sign. Could always tweak the bonus value, too.

How does scarcity vs repeat items factor into this? I get that there are a finite number of rare items in the game, but it doesn't actually benefit me to find 2 ITU's for example. I guess for everything thats not a hullmod, such as weapons and colony items, it would still be a long term benefit to have more of them.

For hullmods specifically, I'd made it so that ones you already know don't drop. This doesn't make it more likely that you'd get specific hullmods that you don't know, just stuff you already do know that would get generated, doesn't.

For blueprints etc, they tend to 1) be quite valuable in credits, anyway and 2) potentially have some uses beyond learning/using them. And, right, some of the colony items could be handy to have more than one of.
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Salvaging Mechanics Update
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2018, 04:00:46 PM »

Sucks that we can't get dupe hullmods anymore. They were nice little chunks of cash for 1 cargo space. Unless of course you are talking about how if the game chooses from like 4 mods and you have two, then the game would only choose to drop one of the two you have.

Also, what else is a "rare item"? Weapons? LPCs? Hullmods?
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Gothars

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Re: Salvaging Mechanics Update
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2018, 04:02:05 PM »

Quote
If they find a high-difficulty derelict and feel like they need to come back for it later, that’s also a problem, since coming back to a system that’s most likely been cleared of any dangers is often going to be a chore.

I wonder... isn't the real problem that a repeated system visit is, supposedly, a chore?
Maybe it would make more sense to equip systems with two (or more) tiers of challenges, the harder of which would not be accessible/visible/present until a certain development level is reached. For example, only past a certain level a *redacted* station takes notice of you, or pirates build an outpost in the system, or scavengers moved in to claim the debris. Then salvaging only a part of common and rare ressources first, and coming back for the rest later, would provide new challenges. Maybe not everytime, but often enough.
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Wyvern

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Re: Salvaging Mechanics Update
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2018, 04:36:06 PM »

Does that etcetera on things affected by salvage rigs include scuttling ships?

No - again, seems situational and not necessarily good. There's no much room for scuttling to be both not completely awful and still worse than selling the ship; any boosts to its output are trouble.
Alright - I'd suggest explicitly calling that out in the tooltip, though, as otherwise it seems reasonable to conflate "salvaging a derelict" with "deliberately scrapping a ship".  In particular, consider a case I ran into once: A derelict Prometheus, far out in the fringe.  My options are salvage it, incorporate it into my fleet, or leave it alone.  Presumably if I salvage it, the salvage rigs come into play.  But hey, free Prometheus - who'd turn that down?  Especially since derelict tankers tend to come with lots of fuel.
...Turns out this one didn't.  I incorporated it into my fleet, and then had to immediately turn around and scrap it because there was no way I could get it back to civilization.  At which point the salvage rigs... don't come into play?

And that whole situation just... doesn't quite feel right, somehow.  Either I should have been able to tell that the ship's tanks were empty before I recovered it, or recovering and then immediately scrapping it should yield the same resources as scrapping it from the get-go.

Support ships are worthless to the point of not existing tactically unless they're one of the few combat variants ( Gemini comes to mind), and there's really not much thought to how much space they take up in your fleet either, so the only other consideration comes with a few of the hull mods that provide fleet bonuses.  For example I was hoping we'd see a hull mod that lets you turn a salvage rig into a mobile refitting bay, lowering the supply cost of refitting when not at a planet (maybe only for smaller size ships).  Just something to make me give more thought to the support/logistics half of my fleet composition besides numbers.

@Eji1700: I've wanted for some time to go through and (via mod) rebalance ships so that (aside from special cases like the rare pre-collapse Kite), every freighter is an at least vaguely-passable combat freighter, and the actual combat freighter designed ships (mule, apogee, wayfarer, etc.) are only marginally sub-optimal compared to straight-up combat ships.

Funny; I'd made some other changes that factor in here, but I don't want to talk about them because that's possibly another blog post :)

In addition, the Mule got a significant buff, and the Hound/Cerberus got a bit of one, too. Wasn't thinking about the Wayfarer; that might be worth another look too.
Interesting... looking forward to that blog post, then!
In the meantime, though, here's a list of ships that I'd count as combat freighters, sorted by category:
Ships that are already at least vaguely decent at both combat and freightering: Kite, Shepherd, Wayfarer, Mule, Apogee
Ships that, lore-wise, are supposed to be able to defend themselves, but aren't actually all that good at it: Hound*, Cerberus*, Prometheus
Ships whose stats suggest that they ought to be combat freighters, but have various flaws that make me not want to use them for either purpose: Gemini, Venture

Also, I'd suggest promoting the Condor to combat freighter status, by simply increasing its cargo and fuel capacity; lore-wise it's a converted freighter, so it feels strange for it to be less freighter-y than the Drover.  I'd probably look at cargo capacity in the 100-200 range (somewhere between 1/3 and 2/3 of the Tarsus' 300), and a fuel capacity of 80 (matching the Tarsus).

And it'd be a decent niche for the Odyssey, too, though that notion may have already been obsoleted by combat upgrades you've mentioned elsewhere.

The last comment I'd like to leave, re combat freighters: please adjust their CR stats!  A ship like the Apogee should be cheaper to send into battle than an Eagle or a Dominator - but should also lose a much larger portion of its CR, and be slower to recover that CR.  Cost to deploy should scale with the actual value in battle of the ship in question - but ships that aren't dedicated warships ought to fare poorly if forced into multiple back-to-back battles.

_____
* The Hound and Cerberus would be fine if the makeshift shield generator were a bit less makeshift; the current design of that hull mod fails to recognize that none of the ships it can be installed on have strong flux systems, to the point that it's generally a defensive downgrade rather than an upgrade.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 04:39:55 PM by Wyvern »
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Alex

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Re: Salvaging Mechanics Update
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2018, 04:43:29 PM »

Also, what else is a "rare item"? Weapons? LPCs? Hullmods?

It's a bit more involved behind the scenes, potentially, but basically: anything that's not a standard commodity. So, yes to all of these.

Maybe it would make more sense to equip systems with two (or more) tiers of challenges, the harder of which would not be accessible/visible/present until a certain development level is reached. For example, only past a certain level a *redacted* station takes notice of you, or pirates build an outpost in the system, or scavengers moved in to claim the debris. Then salvaging only a part of common and rare ressources first, and coming back for the rest later, would provide new challenges. Maybe not everytime, but often enough.

I mean, sure - but that's already how things work, isn't it? You might find a REDACTED of any variety whose defenses are too tough to crack, or perhaps a pirate base. But that doesn't change that finding an undefended salvageable entity and having to come back to it later for efficiency reasons is not great. So it's just two different things; things that have defenses and ones that don't. And having a ton of enemies everywhere so that everything is always defended by something is not, I think, the right feel.
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Alex

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Re: Salvaging Mechanics Update
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2018, 05:24:47 PM »

Alright - I'd suggest explicitly calling that out in the tooltip, though, as otherwise it seems reasonable to conflate "salvaging a derelict" with "deliberately scrapping a ship".  In particular, consider a case I ran into once: A derelict Prometheus, far out in the fringe.  My options are salvage it, incorporate it into my fleet, or leave it alone.  Presumably if I salvage it, the salvage rigs come into play.  But hey, free Prometheus - who'd turn that down?  Especially since derelict tankers tend to come with lots of fuel.
...Turns out this one didn't.  I incorporated it into my fleet, and then had to immediately turn around and scrap it because there was no way I could get it back to civilization.  At which point the salvage rigs... don't come into play?

And that whole situation just... doesn't quite feel right, somehow.  Either I should have been able to tell that the ship's tanks were empty before I recovered it, or recovering and then immediately scrapping it should yield the same resources as scrapping it from the get-go.

Unless I'm misremembering, you only get more fuel if there's a "cargo manifest special" on that ship, which you should see a notification of when you explore. And it doesn't seem that unreasonable that recovering a ship uses up some of the stuff that might've been salvaged if the salvage operation was started right off...

All that is to say, I kind of see what you're saying, but it seems like a fringe enough case that, if we're being honest, I'm not sure is worth worrying about.


I've wanted for some time to go through and (via mod) rebalance ships so that (aside from special cases like the rare pre-collapse Kite), every freighter is an at least vaguely-passable combat freighter, and the actual combat freighter designed ships (mule, apogee, wayfarer, etc.) are only marginally sub-optimal compared to straight-up combat ships.

You know, I really like this idea. It'd be a bit of work - more than I want to try for 0.9 - but I'll definitely keep it in mind. And it aligns very nicely with some of the changes already made.

(Thank you for the freighter list and your thoughts, too!)
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SafariJohn

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Re: Salvaging Mechanics Update
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2018, 05:31:27 PM »

All that is to say, I kind of see what you're saying, but it seems like a fringe enough case that, if we're being honest, I'm not sure is worth worrying about.

Perhaps derelict tankers should get a line for when they don't have extra fuel?
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TauKinth

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Re: Salvaging Mechanics Update
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2018, 05:47:28 PM »

For example I was hoping we'd see a hull mod that lets you turn a salvage rig into a mobile refitting bay, lowering the supply cost of refitting when not at a planet (maybe only for smaller size ships).

This please!
It would add the ability to respond to specific types of fleets by changing ship loadouts before combat. I can see myself investing in a salvage rig(or whatever) early game so that I can change my wolf missile slots to reapers if I am fighting a pirate fleet with a destroyer, salamanders for distracting a few ships to overcome 2-1 odds, or even harpoons to get rid of that one ship that I am very worried about. :o
Not to mention in the late game having a "siege" fleet loadout for taking on a [REDACTED] rather than flying back to base to outfitting your entire fleet and flying back later(or eating the cr/supply penalty, which never occurred to me until now...)

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Can I borrow a lock of hair? I am totally not going to make a clone army of you and infiltrate every game company with said clones in order to make video games less shite.

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I love how you fix things like this even though nobody would have consciously noticed it being slightly un-fun. This is the reason why Starsector(formerly Starfarer) is my all time favorite game!
...I sure am glad I was messing around with modding FTL one day and came across only Starsector(formerly Starfarer) ship sprites, otherwise I would have never found this hidden gem.
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