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Starsector 0.9.1a is out! (05/10/19); Blog post: Skills and Story Points (07/08/19)

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Author Topic: [0.9.1a] Sylphon RnD 0.9.5f  (Read 120026 times)

Hellya

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Re: [0.9.1a] Sylphon RnD 0.9.5
« Reply #255 on: May 19, 2019, 11:34:27 AM »

Okay Nia, I will have to pay closer attention to the varied ships. Your mod would appear to be more diverse than others. Very cool. I thought it was sort of like tri but with really cool purple ships.
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Nia Tahl

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Re: [0.9.1a] Sylphon RnD 0.9.5
« Reply #256 on: May 19, 2019, 04:36:49 PM »

Be sure to look out for the Sylphon prototype hullmods, too. They offer some really powerful effects.
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Bastion.Systems

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Re: [0.9.1a] Sylphon RnD 0.9.5
« Reply #257 on: August 02, 2019, 02:26:04 AM »

"Networked Targeting Linkup" hullmod does not have the "Sylphon RnD" tag.
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Wyvern

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Re: [0.9.1a] Sylphon RnD 0.9.5
« Reply #258 on: August 02, 2019, 10:07:13 AM »

So, a while back you'd asked for places where this faction departs from vanilla balance.  Here's one: it has two decently effective large energy weapons with a range of 800.  This makes those two guns my go-to options for large energy slots on other faction's ships (as well as on Sylphon ships).

Part one of fixing this is just dropping the ranges on those guns to 700; I think that's all the change the weapons need - the rest of their stats seem to be sufficiently in-line with vanilla options.

However, this leaves the larger Sylphon ships under-ranged compared to what they were designed for.  And, as far as I can tell, there's no way to make a hull mod that specifically boosts range for just "large non-beam energy weapons", which means there's no good way (that I can come up with right this second, at least, perhaps you'll have some brilliant notion I didn't think of) to give just those two guns an extra bit of range when installed on Sylphon hulls.

The best I can come up with would be adding in a second built-in hull mod to certain ships (Etrika, Valestri, Synastry, Frelia, Equilibrium, Replekia, and maybe also the Catora?)* that boosts energy weapon range by 125/135/155/175 (based on ship size - numbers picked to be equivalent to what you'd get from +100 range on the base weapon with ITU and Gunnery Implants).  Maybe also make it lock out use of Advanced Optics so you can't stack it for extreme-range beams?
That does, however, have the notable balance change of boosting range of small and medium energy weapons on those hulls.  Personally I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing... but it is a notable change none the less, and may not be what you want.

* Edit: Note that I deliberately left both the Dread Eagle and the Seresvalla off of this list; both of them are high-mobility hulls that fall in line with the standard vanilla high-tech doctrine, and I don't feel that they need the extra range.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 10:09:18 AM by Wyvern »
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Nia Tahl

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Re: [0.9.1a] Sylphon RnD 0.9.5
« Reply #259 on: August 02, 2019, 01:39:21 PM »

short answer: no

long answer:
just because the two non-beam large energies don't have a longer range than 700 doesn't mean a weapon with more range that can't exist. The longer-ranged energies in Sylphon fulfill different roles from their vanilla options. They have neither the raw output of a plasma cannon nor the insane burst of an autopulse laser. If you can't put those weapons to good use, that's not my problem, but there's plenty of reasons to use them.

your suggested "solution" is also stupid since it's just a needlessly complicated fix for a problem that doesn't actually exist and only messes with the overall balance of every single ship you intend to put it on.
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SCC

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Re: [0.9.1a] Sylphon RnD 0.9.5
« Reply #260 on: August 02, 2019, 02:11:09 PM »

Long-range energy weapons are an issue with most mods, I think. Range is such an important statistic (especially on slower, larger ships, like those with large energy guns) that it's often prioritised over everything else.
And Nia has a fetish for giving all energy weapons some EMP component the last time I checked.

Wyvern

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Re: [0.9.1a] Sylphon RnD 0.9.5
« Reply #261 on: August 02, 2019, 02:17:04 PM »

While it's true that non-beam large energies with longer than 700 range can exist without being wholly out of balance with vanilla*, neither of the guns in Sylphon are balanced at 800 range.

Let's consider a hypothetical universe where both of those guns are reduced to range 700 with no other changes.  Would they still be worth using with their current stats?  Well, yes.  Not 100% of the time, of course, but even a "go-to" option isn't "mount this 100% of the time".

* For an example of long-range energy weapons that aren't notably outside of vanilla balance, look at ORA, or the Obusier Shock Artillery from DME.  There are a number of traits these guns have in common, but the biggest one is that they have a very low shot speed and a notable degree of inaccuracy, making it difficult to use them with kiting tactics, and leaving them with a definite weakness against small fast ships where the range advantage would otherwise prove to be overwhelming.  They're also very expensive weapons for their damage output, and, if reduced to standard vanilla ranges with no other changes, would not be able to compete.
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Nia Tahl

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Re: [0.9.1a] Sylphon RnD 0.9.5
« Reply #262 on: August 02, 2019, 03:46:39 PM »

well, too bad, I'm not changing them. They are both perfectly fine at 800 range as far as I'm concerned. If I lower the ranges, it'll *** over all my ships and your suggested solution is crap.

Not to mention your comparisons make no sense. The Obusier is 800 range on a medium which is a massively greater range advantage for a weapon of that size compared to the minor range advantage of my weapons and pointing at ORA is utterly ridiculous when the Invocation Launcher is an absurdly powerful weapon that lets you kite for days.

Edit:
Honestly, this is a lose-lose situation. If I was to go with something like your solution, we'd suddenly have long-range autopulses which would open yet another problematic can of worms. Maybe I'll rework things at some point down the line in a more general manner, but no "simple" solution here will fix any perceived imbalanced without causing just as many new issues
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 04:17:14 PM by Nia Tahl »
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Nanao-kun

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Re: [0.9.1a] Sylphon RnD 0.9.5
« Reply #263 on: August 02, 2019, 04:51:20 PM »

I haven't seen any problems with range.
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Soren

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Re: [0.9.1a] Sylphon RnD 0.9.5
« Reply #264 on: August 02, 2019, 06:33:36 PM »

If you're going to use the Obusier as an example, part of the way I balanced it in terms of things like shot speed and DPS was treating it like a 1000-range Ballistic that just happened to do energy damage, then trimming down the range when that proved broken. I wouldn't hold it up as a paragon of balance; it probably does a bit too much per-shot damage, still.

I don't think 800 range on a large energy is nearly as problematic as it is on a medium, either; you can fit two on a Medusa and wreck serious face. Larges have a lot more balance leeway because as a rule, they're mounted on bigger, slower ships. 100 more range than a Plasma Cannon or Autopulse is easy to balance out with DPS, accuracy, shot speed, damage type, or OP cost.
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Wyvern

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Re: [0.9.1a] Sylphon RnD 0.9.5
« Reply #265 on: August 02, 2019, 07:57:47 PM »

Test platform: Sunder with no skills, 20 capacitors, 20 vents, ITU, stabilized shields, extended shields, hardened shields, choice of one large energy weapon.
Test 1: vs 1x balanced Hammerhead
Test 2: vs 1x close support Lasher, 1x standard Lasher
Test 3: same as test 1, but I put the Sunder under AI control.
I don't see any need to test versus the Lashers with AI control on the Sunder - the Lashers should beat that every time.

Test results:
Spoiler
ORA Invocation Launcher:
Test 1: Sunder wins, at no risk, though it costs the sunder nearly 200s of PPT.
Test 2: the Lashers win.
Test 3: Hammerhead wins, after the Invocation Launcher breaks due to low CR.

Adloquium Plasma Railcannon:
Test 1: Sunder wins, at no risk, and only 50 seconds of PPT.
Test 2: Sunder wins, at cost of ~30s PPT.  Moderate risk - while you're killing the first Lasher, the second one will push you pretty high on flux.
Test 3: Sunder wins, at no risk, costs ~180s PPT.

Purgatory Shock Cannon:
Test 1: Sunder wins, still at no risk, and still costing about 50s PPT.
Test 2: Sunder wins, at cost of ~30s PPT.  Risk about the same as with the Adloquium.
Test 3: Sunder wins, at cost of ~280s PPT - it doesn't get the kill until it pins the Hammerhead against the map edge, but it's never at any risk of taking damage.

Plasma Cannon:
Test 1: Sunder still wins, but requires some care in piloting as it can't just outrange the Hammerhead; cost me about 40s PPT, and was able to avoid taking more than trivial armor damage.
Test 2: Sunder wins, at cost of ~20s PPT.  Moderate risk, though no damage taken.
Test 3: Sunder wins, but down to about half hull and 44% CR.

Autopulse Laser:
Test 1: Still a tricky fight; was able to win without taking damage past shield, but it was close.  ~50s PPT used.
Test 2: Basically identical to the plasma cannon test, though I got a lot closer to taking damage on this one.  ~20s PPT used.
Test 3: Sunder wins, takes ~500 damage from a harpoon it didn't bother to shield, and costs ~100s PPT.
[close]

Now, is this a fair test?  No, of course not.  But it's still a useful one.

There are clear outliers here: against the Hammerhead, all three of the mod weapons I tested allow for victory with zero risk - the Sunder doesn't even have to put its shields up if you fly it right.  However, of those three, it's only Sylphon's guns that offer a reasonable kill time, neither far behind the much riskier fights with shorter-range vanilla weaponry.

Against the Lashers, by contrast, there's no option for a no-risk approach to the fight; whichever Lasher you focus on (it had better be the close support variant), the other will close in and attack.  For these fights, the vanilla weapons are understandably better: both offer better chances at killing one Lasher before it can get out of range and reset - the plasma cannon from raw DPS, the Autopulse from burst damage.

* * * * *

Based on this, though, I do have to revise my statement on why I consider the Invocation Launcher closer to vanilla balance than the Adloquium or the Purgatory.  It turns out it's not the shot speed that's the primary factor, it's the combination of a very low firing rate (so targets can lower shields inbetween shots) and extremely low armor penetration (so that it takes a large number of hits past shields to destroy even a frigate.)
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Nia Tahl

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Re: [0.9.1a] Sylphon RnD 0.9.5
« Reply #266 on: August 03, 2019, 04:33:31 AM »

Nice tests. Still don't give a damn.

Too bad your test parameters are garbage and cherry-picked
« Last Edit: August 03, 2019, 04:41:35 AM by Nia Tahl »
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Jaevwyn

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Re: [0.9.1a] Sylphon RnD 0.9.5
« Reply #267 on: August 03, 2019, 06:39:28 AM »

Hi All,

Just fresh installed my game to play this mod, crashes on startup. Extract of log below, any suggestions? :(

17963 [Thread-4] ERROR com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain  - java.lang.RuntimeException: Error compiling [data.scripts.weapons.MagicVectorThruster]
java.lang.RuntimeException: Error compiling [data.scripts.weapons.MagicVectorThruster]
   at com.fs.starfarer.loading.scripts.ScriptStore$3.run(Unknown Source)
   at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)
Caused by: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: data.scripts.weapons.MagicVectorThruster
   at org.codehaus.janino.JavaSourceClassLoader.findClass(JavaSourceClassLoader.java:179)
   at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClass(Unknown Source)
   at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClass(Unknown Source)
   ... 2 more
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Wyvern

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Re: [0.9.1a] Sylphon RnD 0.9.5
« Reply #268 on: August 03, 2019, 10:54:09 AM »

Nice tests. Still don't give a damn.

Too bad your test parameters are garbage and cherry-picked
"Garbage" may be debateable - I'd be happy to consider what you think is a fair test - but they're definitely not cherry-picked; this is literally the first set of actual tests I tried.  If I were aiming to 'cherry pick' tests I'd have excluded the results with the Lashers, anyway.

I will also note that I have, since then, run some additional tests with a Paragon versus 2x Onslaught; these tests have offered no particularly definitive results, however, which suggests that - at least for that particular match-up - your claim of vanilla balance is effectively correct.  Then again, I'm not sure why I expected anything else; the Paragon isn't really suited to taking advantage of extra range.  Probably the other way around would be more interesting: comparing the difficulty of taking down a Paragon with 800-range energy weapons versus 700 range ones - but that's rather more annoying to set up, so I haven't done it yet.
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Nia Tahl

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Re: [0.9.1a] Sylphon RnD 0.9.5
« Reply #269 on: August 03, 2019, 11:07:56 AM »

Hi All,

Just fresh installed my game to play this mod, crashes on startup. Extract of log below, any suggestions? :(

17963 [Thread-4] ERROR com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain  - java.lang.RuntimeException: Error compiling [data.scripts.weapons.MagicVectorThruster]
java.lang.RuntimeException: Error compiling [data.scripts.weapons.MagicVectorThruster]
   at com.fs.starfarer.loading.scripts.ScriptStore$3.run(Unknown Source)
   at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)
Caused by: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: data.scripts.weapons.MagicVectorThruster
   at org.codehaus.janino.JavaSourceClassLoader.findClass(JavaSourceClassLoader.java:179)
   at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClass(Unknown Source)
   at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClass(Unknown Source)
   ... 2 more

Did you make sure to install all the required libraries? Looks like you're missing MagicLib.


@Wyvern:
I'm done arguing this topic. I have yet to encounter a case where my 800 range weapons are causing actual significant issues and have no intention of fixing an issue that I don't see. If it bothers you, don't use my mod, but in all my testing, neither of the two weapons has been problematic due to its range. The Adloquium could maybe use some more tweaks, but that is for entirely different reasons.
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