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[TaLaR]

As bigger ships having lower base burn naturally, I don't really see a point making variable SB.

This is what made frigates (as a fleet) in 0.65 overpowered.  Frigates had naturally higher burn than everything else AND Navigation gave bigger bonus to small ships.  Combined with other advantages frigates had (low maintenance, fast recovery), frigate swarm was optimal.  Could tear apart endgame fleets as easily as anything else, but traveled across the map much faster.  The only thing frigates could not do was haul (like Atlas fleet).  The extra speed was nice for taking out bounties between food runs.

Well, frigate fleets are absolutely dead now due to 10 officer limit (unless you set ridiculously low battlesize). And I don't think it's a particularly good thing either.

[Megas]

The 30 ship limit always seemed like an arbitrary thing that's gonna go away once... whatever's meant to replace it comes into play. I dunno.

It replaced 0.6 style Logistics, which affected your fleet size (which varied by ship size) and how much personnel you could bring.  Unskilled, you did not have enough Logistics to support a single capital (other than Conquest, which was bad at the time).  At max Leadership/Fleet Logistics, you had enough to support three or four capitals (only), thirty or forty-something frigates, or some combination in between.  You could exceed Logistics but took penalties, and if you took too much, you get accidents.  For those who did not take Leadership, they needed overpowered Combat (and Technology) to solo entire fleets with a small ship because supporting a viable fleet (or even a lone capital ship) was not an option.

0.7 introduced fleet cap, which was 25.  Problem?  Fighters counted as ships, and the limit only applied to the player.  Endgame NPC fleets regularly broke the cap, often having a ten to fifteen ship advantage over your fleet (or twenty or more if you left vacancies for captured ships).  On the other hand, (I think) there were only core worlds, so player did not need Prometheus just to function (although it was occasionally useful to exploit fuel shortage before trade broke).

If player does not need to travel to fringe worlds, then 30 ship limit is okay.  Although it would be nice if after battle displayed all ships that could be captured instead of only enough to max your fleet.  (Makes that one perk that increases capture chance worthless.)  At 30 ships, player can match enemy fleets provided he is not forced to dedicate too many to haulers and does not leave many vacancies for captured ships.  Unfortunately, player raiding fringe worlds needs Atlas and Prometheus to carry enough fuel and supplies to maintain ships, and have capacity to carry loot.

Since my primary way of acquiring new ships is capturing them from the enemy or salvaging them from debris fields, I try not to let my fleet exceed twenty ships, so I have plenty of space for more ships.  Thus, I often have a slight numbers disadvantage against the enemy.  (I frequently use captured ships to auto-resolve pursuits.  They probably do not have the weapons I want on them, just the junk I looted from previous battles.)

Well, frigate fleets are absolutely dead now due to 10 officer limit (unless you set ridiculously low battlesize). And I don't think it's a particularly good thing either.

If this was 0.7, I would agree.  However, skills have been weakened enough that officers are not too much stronger than ships without them.

However, I think frigate swarms may be dead because of the AI's 0.8 era cowardice.  If the enemy has enough ships to prevent yours from swarming them (and vice-versa), they all dance like Spathi until CR is at zero and then they taunt you like Monty Python's dismembered black knight by floating around on the screen like Oolite's trumbles.  Frigates have low peak performance and are devastated by stalling.  Not to mention that fighters eat frigates up like popcorn (which is a reason why my fleet has a lot of fighters).

The main reason to bring a big fleet is to have replacements.  With a big enough fleet, it is not possible to deploy everything thanks to size limits, even if maxed at 500 (max should be higher than this).  The extra ships are handy when player is forced to chain-battle.  I cannot use Paragon for everything.  Sometimes, I deploy the Legion, or Heron, or Hyperion, so that my Paragon is handy when I need it.

[TaLaR]

If this was 0.7, I would agree.  However, skills have been weakened enough that officers are not too much stronger than ships without them.

Skill advantage may seem small in absolute numbers but it's absolutely decisive. Having somewhat more speed, range, weapon effectiveness, shield effectiveness, raw flux... Transforms fight between otherwise equal opponents into one-sided beating, where losing side can't even retreat at will (because it's slower).

Of course, stuff that doesn't scale much with ship stats anyway can be somewhat useful even on trash hulls without officers.
For example, 8 buffalo mk2 with Sabots and Converted Hangar Talons can defeat a skill-less auto-piloted Paragon. So they are in a way supply effective. But I don't want to do that in campaign due to horrible attrition rate. Plus, 30 buffalo mk2s are only 120 points - not enough for battlesize above 300 even before counting logistics and player-piloted ships.

So in the end 30 ships total + 10 officers mean that any mass tactics are nonviable past early game.

[Megas]

Hmmm... by endgame, I use unskilled clunkers (except flagship) against undamaged enemy ships (deserters or Remnants in standard, or anything non-pirate in Nexerelin), some of which have officers (for double advantage in favor of the enemy and disadvantage against my fleet), and I can often win with few, if any casualties.  (Some of the casualties is my hard-to-replace flagship for making a dumb mistake, which means reload.  The rest are clunkers that are easily replaced - the reason why I use clunkers, so I do not need to grind for rare stuff.)  Of course, the advantage of clunkers is I can deploy more and/or bigger ships for less cost (although I mainly use clunkers to avoid grinding, since I usually cannot buy what I want, I much prefer to use undamaged ships with the best weapons).  The challenge is not a single enemy fleet, but attrition from multiple fleets, either to attack multiple bounties to maximize profit or farm Remnants for rare items (HVDs, Sparks, or cores).

I do not doubt that several high-level officers gives an edge.  It is not so much that unskilled does not have a chance.  In 0.7, the difference was so much that officers were unbeatable and unskilled had no point.  Today in 0.8, officers are not unbeatable (but they do have an edge).

[Sutopia]

Quick question, do we gain access to nav buoy and sensor array in friendly faction controlled system just as how we grant access to comm relay in current release?

[TaLaR]

Hmmm... by endgame, I use unskilled clunkers (except flagship) against undamaged enemy ships (deserters or Remnants in standard, or anything non-pirate in Nexerelin), some of which have officers (for double advantage in favor of the enemy and disadvantage against my fleet), and I can often win with few, if any casualties.  (Some of the casualties is my hard-to-replace flagship for making a dumb mistake, which means reload.  The rest are clunkers that are easily replaced - the reason why I use clunkers, so I do not need to grind for rare stuff.)  Of course, the advantage of clunkers is I can deploy more and/or bigger ships for less cost (although I mainly use clunkers to avoid grinding, since I usually cannot buy what I want, I much prefer to use undamaged ships with the best weapons).  The challenge is not a single enemy fleet, but attrition from multiple fleets, either to attack multiple bounties to maximize profit or farm Remnants for rare items (HVDs, Sparks, or cores).

I do not doubt that several high-level officers gives an edge.  It is not so much that unskilled does not have a chance.  In 0.7, the difference was so much that officers were unbeatable and unskilled had no point.  Today in 0.8, officers are not unbeatable (but they do have an edge).

Against same opponents as above a fully elite fleet (8-10 officers) can win without any losses most of the time. It's convenient to not have to refit replacements constantly.
Occasional minor (major would be a reload) losses get replaced at commission military markets or black markets. By the way, are  investigations still in? Haven't gotten any on last version. Just buying whatever you want from BM seems quite safe.

[Megas]

@ TaLaR: At least for weapons, Black Market tends to sell the same junk (i.e., light assault guns, pulse lasers, occasionally heavy mauler) over and over after the initial early game stock gets phased out.  No matter the black market, I almost never find unusual weapons like Mjolnir or Tachyon Lances by endgame.  (I may find them early in the game, but after they are gone, they never get restocked.)  Some of the stuff I want, only military markets have (or black market does not have enough, in case of heavy mauler), and if I cannot get them (due to no commission), then the only way to get the weapons is to loot them from enemies (or research stations with Salvaging 3).

I think the only annoying penalty is custom scans if you trade at a black market that is not a free port.  I tend to raid black markets of enemies (i.e., pirates) or anything with a free port.  (I tend to stop by Kanta's Den, Barad, and Tse Port #3 for my black market needs.  Nortia might be a free port too.)  I do not want to deal with customs, so I do not bother with every black market.

At the time I played, I did not have high-level officers because I was too lazy to (save-scum their skills and) level them up.  Later (in Nexerelin games), I just had two or three fighter-specced officers and threw them into carriers, then maybe one or two generalist officers to take care of my backup flagships.

Against same opponents as above a fully elite fleet (8-10 officers) can win without any losses most of the time. It's convenient to not have to refit replacements constantly.

I need to outfit my new acquisitions, whether they are replacements or not.  And refitting replacements is faster than replaying a battle after reloading a game.  Even with clunkers, I do not always take a casualty.  It is when I do, I do not always reload the game like I used to during 0.7 (since nearly everything worth using was rare).

[Thaago]

Also Megas, if you aren't using a massive clunker fleet you don't need to bring a Prometheus at all, lesser tankers will do just fine. Investing in Navigation helps even more (and quality of life currently trumps endgame power because no current enemy is powerful enough to need maxed combat power).

[Megas]

Also Megas, if you aren't using a massive clunker fleet you don't need to bring a Prometheus at all, lesser tankers will do just fine. Investing in Navigation helps even more (and quality of life currently trumps endgame power because no current enemy is powerful enough to need maxed combat power).

I want Navigation so bad, but there are not enough points, especially if I think about putting points in Industry.  I might have as much skill power as max level officer if I give up Industry and every other QoL skill (and possibly Officer Management too).  If I get Navigation or anything in Industry (after I spend about half skill points on universal skills every character should have, like Loadout Design 3, Fighter Doctrine 3, Fleet Logistics 3, and few others), I have less combat skill power than a max level officer, and that is unacceptable.  With colony skills likely coming in the next release, the skill point squeeze may be worse, depending how that feature plays out.

There is no kill like overkill.  No such thing as too much combat power in 0.8 (which is a shadow of what we used to get before), only not enough.

P.S.  The main fuel hogs are my elite quad lance Paragon that I personally pilot, my backup Legion when Paragon needs to rest, and Atlas or two as bag of holding.  Plus, Prometheus itself is a fuel hog itself (that can carry loads of fuel.)  Finally, if I want to recover capitals used by the enemy (like Onslaught XIV or another Paragon or Legion), they too will guzzle fuel.  My disposable clunkers do not take that much fuel compared to my best ships (which are probably undamaged).

[Zhentar]

Going back to the original thought... trying to buff stealth gameplay by tweaking SB speeds seems pretty backwards since SB is already pretty much completely incompatible with stealth. What if fleet size/sensor profile affected burn speed and/or acceleration while gone dark? That would make evading detection in hostile systems much more viable for small fleets.

[Megas]

Going dark already halves normal burn speed.  Sometimes, that helps sneaking; other times, an unaware patrol blunders into you, and you cannot get away fast enough before they see you.

[Sutopia]

One part of it is that pirates will periodically establish bases near player colonies – being away from the core worlds, they’re more vulnerable – and the bases will need to be dealt with.

This part is fairly odd.
If I recall it right, establishing colony near core world already gives you some sort of population bonus AND chances of exporting goods for additional income.
Adding the danger of pirate bases, doesn’t this whole thing bounds player to set their colony right next to core world?
Unless the generator is making it higher chance for better planets as the distance from core world grows, I suggest pirate activity decreases as the colony distance away. It’s already pain to get to colony if you’re trying to explore the opposite side of the sector, adding more pirate activity is doubling the risk and making no profit at all.
This can again get well explained if the “funded pirates” idea gets implemented: since you’re not trying to even join the economy war, they’re less likely to get pirates to hunt you down.

[Alex]

Going back to the original thought... trying to buff stealth gameplay by tweaking SB speeds seems pretty backwards since SB is already pretty much completely incompatible with stealth. What if fleet size/sensor profile affected burn speed and/or acceleration while gone dark? That would make evading detection in hostile systems much more viable for small fleets.

It's about creating an extra upside for smaller fleets, one that doesn't become obsolete when the player is set up with a lot of income/production/etc. Stealth is ancillary here.

One part of it is that pirates will periodically establish bases near player colonies – being away from the core worlds, they’re more vulnerable – and the bases will need to be dealt with.

This part is fairly odd.
If I recall it right, establishing colony near core world already gives you some sort of population bonus AND chances of exporting goods for additional income.
Adding the danger of pirate bases, doesn’t this whole thing bounds player to set their colony right next to core world?
...

That's just an off-hand statement about the backstory motivation/reasoning for that happening. In terms of the actual game, where you establish the colony won't matter for that; the pirates will find a way to put down a base somewhere relatively nearby.

[Midnight Kitsune]

Going back to the original thought... trying to buff stealth gameplay by tweaking SB speeds seems pretty backwards since SB is already pretty much completely incompatible with stealth. What if fleet size/sensor profile affected burn speed and/or acceleration while gone dark? That would make evading detection in hostile systems much more viable for small fleets.

It's about creating an extra upside for smaller fleets, one that doesn't become obsolete when the player is set up with a lot of income/production/etc. Stealth is ancillary here.

One thing I worry about is even more trolling from smaller fleets that use their now faster speeds to pull in their much larger friend's fleets...

[Sutopia]

That's just an off-hand statement about the backstory motivation/reasoning for that happening. In terms of the actual game, where you establish the colony won't matter for that; the pirates will find a way to put down a base somewhere relatively nearby.

What is the merit, if any, for setting colonies away from core world then?
I’m just afraid player save scum on world generating, try finding some seemingly V planet near core world at game start and regen new game if the world is not that desirable.