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Author Topic: Pirate Bases, Raids, and Objectives  (Read 27891 times)

Cyan Leader

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Re: Pirate Bases, Raids, and Objectives
« Reply #75 on: June 17, 2018, 06:57:22 PM »

The color stripes feature for fleets could come in handy here. All outlaws being red and then some small stripes around the circle (not half and half) to show the type.
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Alex

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Re: Pirate Bases, Raids, and Objectives
« Reply #76 on: June 17, 2018, 07:34:18 PM »

Will core worlds also get them? Seems like it would make the life of ordinary pirates much harder if patrols had extra burn and sensor strength.

Yeah - they haven't yet, but it's on the TODO list. It's not going to be an "every system has everything" situation, though.

Does the "luring away"-mechanic encourage the use of smaller fleets, though? Seems like it just doesn't discourage it further. Big fleets can lure away the enemy too, after all, for an even less risky (and thus statistically cheaper) fight. Not to be nitpicky, I'd just like to see some real advantage to the use of small fleets, not just a (partial) compensation of the disadvantages.

I mean, that's fair, but you're also totally nitpicking :) I think "this is a thing smaller fleets can do, and smaller fleets are more desirable for logistical reasons (while those matter)" is reasonable to call "encourage".

That said, I'm pretty partial to the idea of 1) changing the maximum SB bonus to 10 w/o skill and removing the skill impact on it, and 2) having it scale from +5 to +10 based on the fleet's sensor profile, with larger fleets getting a lower bonus. It has the nice side-effect of also encouraging stealth since a more stealthy fleet would have a comparatively higher SB bonus.

Long time lurker here. Unlikely to change, just wanted to chip in.

Welcome to the forum, for however long you de-lurk for :)

... but I've always appreciated the tone it sets by having pirates be a mix of outlaws, (noble?) rebels, bloodthirsty psychopaths, and people just trying to survive.

Hmm - conceptually, locking the reputation would be completely in line with that. Or, rather, more in line with it than having a global, changing reputation is.

Being able to get on their good side (typically at the expense of your reputation with the major factions) is something I've always enjoyed, even if it's typically quite difficult (which suits me fine).

The pirate playstyle represents a huge change to how you play the game and see things, and I've always enjoyed it as being very difficult, but also very rewarding. No other faction you join presents nearly as much of a change as the pirates do (both thematic and gameplay wise) - though I acknowledge exactly what makes me enjoy it so much also makes it so frustrating to integrate as an option, being so different from the standard approach of 90%+ of players.

While I understand that trying to account for the player being friendly to pirates might make a lot of events more difficult, please consider an alternative solution that would allow for the player to remain friendly with pirates, just because it's something I really enjoy about the game that adds a lot of depth to it (even though it's giving you a huge headache in terms of complexity).

As far as a pirate playstyle - is being friendly with the pirates an actual requirement here? Pretty much everything piratey you do, you can do, including trading with pirate markets, as long as you've got the the transponder off, regardless of your standing.

Besides, I'd hate to lose that wonderful pirate friendly market theme. It's amazing how the song transitions from being hostile, suspicious and threatening when you're hostile to the pirates, then going to noble and hopeful when you're friendly with a few small changes. Really gives the theme of a desperate rebellion, or just trying to stay alive.

Ah, hmm, that's a point :) I could see splitting out a few factions - such as the Charterist rebels - at some point, if it became gameplay-significant. I don't particularly want to split actual core pirates into subfactions based on type, since that very much feels like unnecessarily complicating things. In any case, not 100% set on anything here; will keep this in mind, but no promises.

(Basically, if I run into something that's enough of a pain to deal with and that locking rep solves (or if a related bug comes up), I'll probably do it. If I don't, I don't see a reason to go out of the way to do it.)
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Megas

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Re: Pirate Bases, Raids, and Objectives
« Reply #77 on: June 17, 2018, 07:50:01 PM »

Wasn't the point of Sustained Burn was to reduce tandem of traveling?  Lowering SB bonus just so small fleets have a point seems like a way to increase tandem, or at least make Navigation a skill tax (like it used to be during 0.65).
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Alex

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Re: Pirate Bases, Raids, and Objectives
« Reply #78 on: June 17, 2018, 07:57:35 PM »

Huh? Navigation would not be involved at all, you'd basically get that bonus for free except it would be sensor-profile-based, instead of being a flat +5 and requiring skill points.
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Sutopia

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Re: Pirate Bases, Raids, and Objectives
« Reply #79 on: June 17, 2018, 08:03:54 PM »

Is the map burn speed still capped at 20 even under nav buoy assist?
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Alex

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Re: Pirate Bases, Raids, and Objectives
« Reply #80 on: June 17, 2018, 08:05:37 PM »

Yep.
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Sutopia

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Re: Pirate Bases, Raids, and Objectives
« Reply #81 on: June 17, 2018, 08:07:37 PM »

Yep.
So I assume using SB is still quite uninterceptable unless they're far in front of you and have taken action to lay an intercept course?
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Techhead

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Re: Pirate Bases, Raids, and Objectives
« Reply #82 on: June 17, 2018, 11:19:15 PM »

That said, I'm pretty partial to the idea of 1) changing the maximum SB bonus to 10 w/o skill and removing the skill impact on it, and 2) having it scale from +5 to +10 based on the fleet's sensor profile, with larger fleets getting a lower bonus. It has the nice side-effect of also encouraging stealth since a more stealthy fleet would have a comparatively higher SB bonus.
With the huge profile on the Ox, is the +1 burn really going to be worth lowering your SB bonus? And similar issues with Augmented Drive Field. (Plus leaving aside the thematic headscratchers.) I think if you want to zip around and outmaneuver slower fleets to score strategically, there are high-burn ships in every size class like the Conquest and Falcon that suit these purposes just fine. If you want to accentuate the difference between high-burn and low-burn fleets (something SB currently negates), I'd just make SB a simple "2x Burn". It's straightforward, it preserves proportional speed differences, and it keeps the +Burn options quite relevant.

Yep.
So I assume using SB is still quite uninterceptable unless they're far in front of you and have taken action to lay an intercept course?
Either an intercept course or an interdiction pulse.
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Sutopia

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Re: Pirate Bases, Raids, and Objectives
« Reply #83 on: June 17, 2018, 11:34:57 PM »

Ah, hmm, that's a point :) I could see splitting out a few factions - such as the Charterist rebels - at some point, if it became gameplay-significant. I don't particularly want to split actual core pirates into subfactions based on type, since that very much feels like unnecessarily complicating things. In any case, not 100% set on anything here; will keep this in mind, but no promises.

(Basically, if I run into something that's enough of a pain to deal with and that locking rep solves (or if a related bug comes up), I'll probably do it. If I don't, I don't see a reason to go out of the way to do it.)

If Pirates had stuff (I cannot find in Open/Black markets) worth buying for joining them, I would think about it doing so.  As they are, they are a bunch of losers who failed to break out and make it big.  If I want to be a pirate in Starsector, I would join a major faction then beat up enemies.  I get access to better goodies and get paid for acting like a pirate.  If I get stuck with junk, I prefer to stay as a free agent (either to build my empire or destroy everything) than join with other losers stuck with junk.

I'm finding Megas' statement making perfect sense: who would even BE a so-called pirate in first place?
If not secretly funded by someone, my answer is NO. NOONE would ever be pirate on their own.

Take a look at modern piracy(physical, not cyber).
They are well-organized and probably have relationship with some kind of government or rebellions.
It's very much similar to modern privateer except noone is gonna claim responsibility to their done damage.

Take a look at revamped economy, players will somehow be able to reduce competitor's accessibility so player can win the trade war.
Privateer operations are not allowed unless two factions are at war, so there can be secretly funded armadas doing the nasty work.

Take a look at free port, I think Alex has not explained how the underground economy and crime will be handled in colony in detail?

I think it's a good chance combining these up, and again make things simplified but not ruin any fun.

Idea: remove general "pirate" from game. Change it into a hidden faction that is perfectly fine with fixed rep at -50.
General random piracy will be done by independent guys just like how it acts now in .81 in far-far-far away areas.
When a so-called "pirate" appears, it's secretly funded by a market's opponent to reduce accessibility of competitors.
It then perfectly explains how all the weapons and maybe even the blueprints get to those pirate stations: it's secretly funded.
It can be one part of the underground economy exercise: a raided colony's product and/or an intercepted trade fleet's goods will get more likely appearing in black market for a few months after such operation went successful.

I'm not sure how Alex will making the crime and underground activities in player's colony managing, but what I'm imagining is you'll need to spend some money to suppress crimes; or let loose and eventually your stability drop and organized crime appears. Players can also spend additional money to try "make friends" with mafia boss, take control of both light and dark side of your colony. Although it might cause somehow reduced stability since organized crime is prerequirement, you'll then be able to actually "fund them to set a pirate base" to reduce your competitors' accessibility without heavy reputation punishment. It's an option for player trying to act like a "very clever badass".

I'm not sure if it'll go over-complicated if making it possible to trace back to pirate's funder and ask for some kind of ransom or reparation, but under assumption of all pirates are funded by competitor, it's perfectly fine setting them at hostile (rep -50).

Edit:
I think I forgot about pirate distress calls? The already-existed independent scavenger can do the job.
As player can make real and fake distress calls, why can't everyone else do same?
Some greedy NPC might just do the same and try ambush you if they think they can take you; or they pretend they pressed the wrong button and give you some fuel/supply in return for the false call if they eventually find you too big to fight against.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2018, 12:47:07 AM by Sutopia »
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SCC

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Re: Pirate Bases, Raids, and Objectives
« Reply #84 on: June 18, 2018, 04:33:52 AM »

I think that, if anything, there should be subfactions that made up factions themselves, at least whenever applicable. Subfactions would have max relationships with one another, but one subfaction's relation on you would affect only partially another subfaction's standing. It wouldn't make much sense for Hegemony to be so fragmented that you can be at war with one part, but not the other, but pirates could be renamed "outlaws", made from subfactions raiders, pirates and smugglers, that were defined by what they do, so it'd be easy to differentiate them even without names. Theoretically Persean League or Ludds could be made from subfactions, but PL has an issue of being less defined by their activities and more by what their colonies are, so division could feel arbitrary if there aren't any politics (sub)factions could work with, and as far as I know there aren't. It runs into an issue where only really pirates would benefit from having subfactions, though. If those things were to happen, I'd sooner expect them to be in Starsector expansion, not base game.

Megas

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Re: Pirate Bases, Raids, and Objectives
« Reply #85 on: June 18, 2018, 06:07:03 AM »

With the huge profile on the Ox, is the +1 burn really going to be worth lowering your SB bonus? And similar issues with Augmented Drive Field. (Plus leaving aside the thematic headscratchers.) I think if you want to zip around and outmaneuver slower fleets to score strategically, there are high-burn ships in every size class like the Conquest and Falcon that suit these purposes just fine. If you want to accentuate the difference between high-burn and low-burn fleets (something SB currently negates), I'd just make SB a simple "2x Burn". It's straightforward, it preserves proportional speed differences, and it keeps the +Burn options quite relevant.
I did not think about that at the time but... since Sustained Burn is Burn Speed most of the time, gaining minimum burn but losing maximum burn seems silly.  (If I add Ox for +1 burn, then get -1 to SB, I would never use Ox.)

If player is expected to bring big fleets to explore or raid systems by endgame, he will be stuck with Atlas and/or Prometheus for capacity, the slowest ships in the game.

Currently, my endgame fleet always has a Prothemeus because I need its fuel capacity (because I need a big fleet to match and smash endgame bounties or Remnants), and thanks to thirty ship limit, I cannot afford to spare several fleet slots for four or more Phaetons.  Because my endgame fleet always has Prometheus, and usually Atlas too, burn speed is low without SB.  If I need to downgrade to smaller stat sticks (Buffalo, Colossus, Phaeton), then I probably would need to dedicate about half my slots to them, and I probably would not have enough slots for a proper war fleet, let alone vacancies to capture enemy ships.
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Embolism

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Re: Pirate Bases, Raids, and Objectives
« Reply #86 on: June 18, 2018, 06:17:08 AM »

The 30 ship limit always seemed like an arbitrary thing that's gonna go away once... whatever's meant to replace it comes into play. I dunno.

Re: pirate subfactions. If individual admiral/character reputations becomes a meaningful thing then that's probably enough as a pirate "subfaction" mechanic. Same goes for Independents to a lesser extent.

The Persean League on the other hand might benefit from a true subfaction mechanic given the individual worlds are meant to squabble and even go to war with one another except when facing an external threat. Things like the Lion's Guard and maybe Knights of Ludd, Ko Combine, Tri-Tachyon Phase Ops could become subfactions of their respective factions too.
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Megas

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Re: Pirate Bases, Raids, and Objectives
« Reply #87 on: June 18, 2018, 06:22:07 AM »

who would even BE a so-called pirate in first place?
If not secretly funded by someone, my answer is NO. NOONE would ever be pirate on their own.
No one with a brain, but there are the stupid people, possibly some juiced up from too many drugs.  Just watch a clip from Crooks Caught on Tape or something similar.  Or think Beavis and Butthead.  The pirate faction is probably full of idiots chanting "Huh huh, heh heh, this is gonna be cool! Yeh! Heh heh! Fire! Fire!.  … Huh huh, This sucks! Yeah, heh, heh, this sucks!" …if they are sober.  No telling what they are thinking or saying if high on dope.
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Sutopia

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Re: Pirate Bases, Raids, and Objectives
« Reply #88 on: June 18, 2018, 06:31:29 AM »

With the huge profile on the Ox, is the +1 burn really going to be worth lowering your SB bonus? And similar issues with Augmented Drive Field. (Plus leaving aside the thematic headscratchers.) I think if you want to zip around and outmaneuver slower fleets to score strategically, there are high-burn ships in every size class like the Conquest and Falcon that suit these purposes just fine. If you want to accentuate the difference between high-burn and low-burn fleets (something SB currently negates), I'd just make SB a simple "2x Burn". It's straightforward, it preserves proportional speed differences, and it keeps the +Burn options quite relevant.
I did not think about that at the time but... since Sustained Burn is Burn Speed most of the time, gaining minimum burn but losing maximum burn seems silly.  (If I add Ox for +1 burn, then get -1 to SB, I would never use Ox.)

If player is expected to bring big fleets to explore or raid systems by endgame, he will be stuck with Atlas and/or Prometheus for capacity, the slowest ships in the game.

Currently, my endgame fleet always has a Prothemeus because I need its fuel capacity (because I need a big fleet to match and smash endgame bounties or Remnants), and thanks to thirty ship limit, I cannot afford to spare several fleet slots for four or more Phaetons.  Because my endgame fleet always has Prometheus, and usually Atlas too, burn speed is low without SB.  If I need to downgrade to smaller stat sticks (Buffalo, Colossus, Phaeton), then I probably would need to dedicate about half my slots to them, and I probably would not have enough slots for a proper war fleet, let alone vacancies to capture enemy ships.

As bigger ships having lower base burn naturally, I don't really see a point making variable SB.
Also it's odd to vary it by fleet sensor profile since I thought it's determined by top 5 (or 3? I can't remember) profile ships only, meaning 30 dooms can have smaller sensor profile than just 5 paragons.
The general idea can be tweaked to total ship counts in fleet though: if a fleet gets sufficiently small amounts of ships it can SB at +10, otherwise the speed modifier decreases as the fleet grow.
It can also be calculated in EW fashion, different class contribute different score and high score(a lot of ships or big ships) results in low SB speed bonus.
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Sutopia

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Re: Pirate Bases, Raids, and Objectives
« Reply #89 on: June 18, 2018, 06:33:13 AM »

No one with a brain, but there are the stupid people, possibly some juiced up from too many drugs.  Just watch a clip from Crooks Caught on Tape or something similar.  Or think Beavis and Butthead.  The pirate faction is probably full of idiots chanting "Huh huh, heh heh, this is gonna be cool! Yeh! Heh heh! Fire! Fire!.  … Huh huh, This sucks! Yeah, heh, heh, this sucks!" …if they are sober.  No telling what they are thinking or saying if high on dope.
I doubt such idiot ever gain sufficient money to even buy a ship. *facepalm*
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