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Author Topic: Reasons to (temporally) use a small fleet  (Read 6357 times)

TaLaR

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Re: Reasons to (temporally) use a small fleet
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2018, 03:29:58 AM »

Maybe combine the two, a skill that makes downsizing the fleet less cumbersome.

Fails for same reason as most utility skills - taking them reduces your endgame power.
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Megas

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Re: Reasons to (temporally) use a small fleet
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2018, 06:02:08 AM »

Maybe combine the two, a skill that makes downsizing the fleet less cumbersome.

Fails for same reason as most utility skills - taking them reduces your endgame power.
It fails for those obsessed with maximum endgame power like you and I, but there are people who are willing to take crutch skills to give them more power to survive early-game even if it sacks endgame power.  Then there may be those who take skills based purely on fluff or role-play.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Reasons to (temporally) use a small fleet
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2018, 06:16:02 AM »

Given that, I think something like this would work better if it worked out to being a playstyle choice rather than something you go back and forth on often.

But can it ever be a viable playstile choice? The way I see it, you're building a game about managing a grant fleet and building your own star nation. The (mid- and late-game) challenges in the game are all build with that in mind. Providing a host of entirely different challenges that can be overcome (only) by a small fleet would basically mean building content for another entire game!

That's why I suggested small-fleeting as a part-time job; players could still do Starsector's main thing while occasionally dipping their toes into other waters. You'd need much less content than you would for enabling it as a playstile all on its own.

Hence why I suggest trying to design things so mid-sized fleets are ideal (and thus the norm). An elite fleet with like 1 cruiser, 3 destroyers, and 3 frigates is enough ships for combat to work well and few enough ships to get attached to individually. This would leave room for large fleets like the old System Defense Fleet to exist as special challenges, and, by lowering the average size of fleets, would increase the effective power of small fleets.
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Alex

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Re: Reasons to (temporally) use a small fleet
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2018, 03:20:09 PM »

Skill Idea: Fleet Optimization

Years of discerning the exact capabilities of every ship in his/her command gives an experienced commander the ability to do more with less. Operating a fleet less than 50/30/20 Deployment Points gives the following bonuses,

Level 1: +5/10/15 maximum Combat Readiness (all ships in fleet).
Level 2: 15/25/35% reduction in CR Deployment Cost and Recovery Cost. 2/3/5x per ship bonus for Coordinated Maneuvers & Electronic Warfare.
Level 3: +5/10/15% Flux Dissipation (all ships in fleet).

The rationale here is that is a.) not all or none and b.) rewards small fleets with both campaign and combat bonuses. I also thought about the "deploy more to gain buffs" of EW and CM and worked those in as well. An intentionally tiny fleet could chain-deploy, likely have both speed and range advantages (if you capitalized on CM and EW), and win flux wars with otherwise equal ships. If you maxed all this out early, your initial fleet would be pretty powerful but as soon as you start adding, you would see less and less positive effect until you completely outgrow it and lose all the bonuses completely. This has the net effect of making the skill points useless. You might have to put in a warning or visual queue that the skill isn't working because your fleet is too big.

Hmm. If a smaller player fleet gets combat bonuses - sufficient to make it competitive with a larger player fleet - then that might obsolete larger fleets, no? It seems like trying to tune this using combat power is a bit dangerous. Not necessarily impossible, though.


It's the main reason I conceived of the system, really. Growth is a fundamental part of the progression of this game, but growth does not necessarily mean more/bigger ships. What if instead we can focus on building a small but elite taskforce?

Probably too intensive to implement at this stage of development, but I do hope some form of this makes it into the game.

There's really a lot to think through there, as far as implications on everything, and, as you say, it's quite a bit of effort - an entirely new progression system for ships.


But can it ever be a viable playstile choice? The way I see it, you're building a game about managing a grant fleet and building your own star nation. The (mid- and late-game) challenges in the game are all build with that in mind. Providing a host of entirely different challenges that can be overcome (only) by a small fleet would basically mean building content for another entire game!

That's why I suggested small-fleeting as a part-time job; players could still do Starsector's main thing while occasionally dipping their toes into other waters. You'd need much less content than you would for enabling it as a playstile all on its own.

Hmm, maybe? For example let's say a smaller fleet was able to get around *a lot* faster. Combine that with patrols and static defenses at your colonies, and it would enable you to effectively protect a more wide-spread set of colonies, giving you access to more desirable worlds. The point being that once your colonies get off the ground, a lot of the quantity-scaling-up can be offloaded from the player fleet onto patrols and stations. Offensive use of patrols/war fleets would also be something to consider.

Also, I *think* temporarily scaling up for a larger challenge feels better than scaling down from your "usual" fleet. You get to keep your core fleet and get some expendables, and there's the feeling of taking on a greater challenge. Scaling down feels more uncomfortable because you don't have the stuff you're used to having, and if the reason for doing it is something smaller, then it might also feel more like a chore.

Maybe something fairly uncomplicated like "the effect of SB depends on fleet size" could work. Have it give +10 burn w/o the skill point, and then it'd vary from say +3-5 to +10 depending. Would have to quantify "fleet size" in some elegant way, though. Fleet points are not player visible, and "number of ships" would favor large ships excessively. Could possibly be based on the sensor profile, hmm - then you'd have some added benefits to keeping that down, and it "makes sense" in that ships with degraded/augmented engines etc cause more disruption to the drive bubble etc.
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Goumindong

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Re: Reasons to (temporally) use a small fleet
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2018, 03:42:36 PM »

Also you cannot SB into a planet on this construction. You win if you aren’t seen. Not if you aren’t scanned.
That is the thing.  Even if I try to be stealthy (with a small fleet), it does not always work (and not reliable enough).  Sure, it is a bit easier to sneak with a smaller fleet, but not enough to be worth it (to give up my main fleet).  If I fail with a big fleet, I get a consolation prize of ships, weapons, and other junk left behind from the enemies I kill, and I move on to the next market to try again while things cool down.  If I fail with a stealth fleet, the jig is up, and it is time to reload (either because I get caught and ruined or I waste too much time evading fleets in vain).

Are you saying you cannot dock while SB is on in this latest release?  No matter, I guess that means turn it off before I reach the planet?  Would make things a bit harder, but maybe not enough to matter too much.

Under my construction it would be a “smuggling mission” that would hard fail if you get seen.

You accept the mission to get 1 unit of “highly sensitive super macguffinite” onto a specific planet upon delivery you will be paid 200k credits. If you get seen while in the target system you fail the mission, get no credits, and get a reputation loss. Just as if the mission had timed out.

The mission payout would be higher for planets that had larger populations/more populated systems.
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Megas

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Re: Reasons to (temporally) use a small fleet
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2018, 04:53:53 PM »

If there were lucrative missions that required stealth like those you propose, then yes, stealth would be more useful.
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Goumindong

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Re: Reasons to (temporally) use a small fleet
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2018, 12:49:19 AM »

If there were lucrative missions that required stealth like those you propose, then yes, stealth would be more useful.

Yes. The lack of missions/things to do which require small fleets is what makes small fleets an issue
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Megas

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Re: Reasons to (temporally) use a small fleet
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2018, 04:23:57 AM »

That said, the suggestion of a mission where you cannot be seen sounds like a luck-based mission due to patrols' sensor burst.  If a patrol onscreen decides to ping a burst, there is nothing you can do about it, and you will be seen.  Also, if you want to sneak into a place where there are too many patrols (and you cannot be seen at all), you cannot use sensor burst to lure them away (then go dark to disappear from them).
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