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Author Topic: Randomly buff hull mod on built ships?  (Read 7960 times)

Goumindong

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Re: Randomly buff hull mod on built ships?
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2018, 12:53:57 PM »

If these were to be implemented they would have to be as a part of post salvage. I.E. you randomly come across and old ship that was produced before the fall and its quality aspect has survive intact
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Thaago

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Re: Randomly buff hull mod on built ships?
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2018, 01:16:39 PM »

...

"To find one" is enough to make player do RNG roll grind.
As my OP stated it should NOT be a part of standard progression, either should it be always available after certain RNG incident else it's just another ITU.
It should be a constantly rolling process at every cycle of ship gen thus making there always "something" you can get "surprised".
By background locking the "prize" for 1 or 2 period beforehand is easy enough to block any possible save scum for "good" ships.
TBH I hate how ITU is like now and I believe I saw Alex mentioned somewhere this will be "fixed" in 0.9.

How would there be any RNG at all? If you look at the examples I gave - scavenging after defeating the Remnant station or completing the Hegemony quest line - THAT is what I mean by progression. Completing objectives.

I also hate how ITU is handled, but not because it is progression: I hate it because it is random, and there is no way to get it other than luck.

...

Just correct me if I'm wrong: players LOVE RNGesus.
Unpredictability is fascinating, it always has been.
In current system the closest play is ITU, but it's not repeatable, thus cannot retain the excitement.
Any D-mod is removable given enough money, so to be honest, it cannot really make your ship feel "unique" when near end-game since you'll be sitting on everything "gained in some kind of predictable process/progress". It's not like "Material Brave - Ignition-" having ridiculous amount of droppable items for player to "discover" and play with. Thus, making RNG plays on ship building cycle is my best bet, if any, liven up the game a bit.

I will correct you: players are ADDICTED to RNG, and while some confuse addiction for love, it makes for poor, lazy, frustration filled game design. There is a difference between unpredictability that allows a player to apply their knowledge and skill in new ways, and unpredictability that makes them just push the button over and over again. There is unpredictability that leads to new strategy vs a slot machine.

The current ITU is a slot machine ("Variable Ratio Schedule" in psychology parlance as there is a fixed chance per enemy fleet with it killed) with a single big payout: keep killing Remnant fleets, eventually after a random time you'll get it. Its frustrating and grindy and boring.

What you are proposing is a variation of the same thing, only instead of one big payout, it has many smaller ones: keep producing ships (and as ships cost resources, this is still player time), and you will be randomly rewarded at unknown intervals. Its a slot machine and I do not want it in SS.

Side note: The current way to buy ships is Variable Ratio Scheduling with a one month in game time delay between pulls of the slot machine lever. This is not as bad as ITU because the behavior being encouraged is limited by that one month delay - it can lead to a little bit of abuse (going out of your way to check markets) but that is inherently limited and leads to other gameplay. Its still bad, but is both limited and has been helped a lot by boarding as an alternate ship source.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 01:20:36 PM by Thaago »
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TaLaR

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Re: Randomly buff hull mod on built ships?
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2018, 01:29:12 PM »

I also hate how ITU is handled, but not because it is progression: I hate it because it is random, and there is no way to get it other than luck.

Isn't ITU fairly reliably sold by TT, as long as you are willing to take their commission? They might have fewer markets, but due to best modspec availability TT seems no-brainer for no salvage runs.
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Thaago

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Re: Randomly buff hull mod on built ships?
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2018, 01:35:51 PM »

I also hate how ITU is handled, but not because it is progression: I hate it because it is random, and there is no way to get it other than luck.

Isn't ITU fairly reliably sold by TT, as long as you are willing to take their commission? They might have fewer markets, but due to best modspec availability TT seems no-brainer for no salvage runs.

So for TT commissions its ok (checking every market, but limited by month so the behavior isn't too consuming), but for everyone else it is terrible. And the very fact that the player choice is "join this one faction" or "do grindy combat over and over" means that the existence of the ITU as a random loot has warped the game design.
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Megas

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Re: Randomly buff hull mod on built ships?
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2018, 03:16:19 PM »

I dislike that if I want most if not all of the good hullmods, I must join Tri-Tachyon.  I do not like it.

If I join this faction...
Hegemony:  I get (A) and (XIV) ships and some good small and medium ballistics (railgun, mauler, hvd, needlers).  Hullmods are lackluster.
Tri-Tachyon:  I get all of the good hullmods, access to heavy blasters and tachyon lance.  Easy access to Paragon and other high-tech ships.
Persean League:  Most of the hullmods Tri-Tachyon has.  Access to Mjolnir and Conquest.
Sindrian Diktat:  (A) ships, no other enemies aside from occasional events.  Inferior Hegemony clone all-around.
Luddic Church:  Nothing but junk.  One step above pirates.

Basically, if I want to join a faction, Tri-Tachyon or Persean League are the no-brainer choices.
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Igncom1

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Re: Randomly buff hull mod on built ships?
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2018, 07:17:20 PM »

I'd stick with PL as they have more ports to buy from.

TT does have better options for the good high tech stuff, but otherwise it's not very hard to get anything else you want with PL and independent ports.
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Megas

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Re: Randomly buff hull mod on built ships?
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2018, 07:33:35 PM »

Cannot blame you for that.  Hegemony and the League have the most ports.  Tri-Tachyon has less, but they have the most hullmods I want to buy, plus other stuff.  Currently, if I want lances but not signed to TT, I need to save-scum the relatively few endgame bounties with Paragon in it to get lances (and Hardened Shields).  Of course, the League has few things no one else wants to carry.

Independents are okay, but they have few military markets, their biggest market is in Ludd space (i.e., out-of-the-way), and you need to build rep to get the best stuff, which you do not have until later in the game.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 07:35:58 PM by Megas »
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Sutopia

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Re: Randomly buff hull mod on built ships?
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2018, 12:41:13 AM »

How would there be any RNG at all? If you look at the examples I gave - scavenging after defeating the Remnant station or completing the Hegemony quest line - THAT is what I mean by progression. Completing objectives.

I also hate how ITU is handled, but not because it is progression: I hate it because it is random, and there is no way to get it other than luck.

Scavenging IS RNG and ppl do try to save scum on this.


I will correct you: players are ADDICTED to RNG, and while some confuse addiction for love, it makes for poor, lazy, frustration filled game design. There is a difference between unpredictability that allows a player to apply their knowledge and skill in new ways, and unpredictability that makes them just push the button over and over again. There is unpredictability that leads to new strategy vs a slot machine.

..............................

So I see you're all against any kind of "slot machine" no matter what's in there while the suggestion was trying to fix my biggest hated part in current ITU: the price being predictablly too big.
If you really tear the game apart it's FILLED with slot machines, really. What kind of bounties are generated? What missions are generated? And the biggest slot machine has been on world creation: what kind of planest and systems are being generated?
I don't see it bad if all the RESULT of RNG is MINOR.
I don't see frustration either for the fact that it's "adding" something randomly, not what you'll get eventually "as granted".
If you're taking every best result RNGed as granted you're always frustrated no matter what kind of RNG it is and THAT is NOT game's fault.
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Histidine

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Re: Randomly buff hull mod on built ships?
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2018, 06:24:49 AM »

We interrupt this discussion of what RNG is good/bad to bring you these explanatory articles by Keith Burgun:
Randomness and game design
Three types of bad randomness, and one good one

(The key point made in these articles is the difference between output randomness (bad) and input randomness (good). I might describe it as: one gives the player something to work with, the other passes arbitrary judgement on the player.)

That is all. Carry on!
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Sutopia

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Re: Randomly buff hull mod on built ships?
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2018, 11:11:06 PM »

We interrupt this discussion of what RNG is good/bad to bring you these explanatory articles by Keith Burgun:
Randomness and game design
Three types of bad randomness, and one good one

(The key point made in these articles is the difference between output randomness (bad) and input randomness (good). I might describe it as: one gives the player something to work with, the other passes arbitrary judgement on the player.)

That is all. Carry on!

So I did mention in my OP

Of course, the chance is increased if the faction's industry level increase.

It can also get some kind of tendency based on your manufacturing preference
For instance, you're more likely to get (fine architecture: increase armor rating by 5%) if your faction focus more on building low tech, durable ships.
In that aspect this can now be something close to those "input randomness".
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: Randomly buff hull mod on built ships?
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2018, 09:18:36 AM »

If you actually read the articles, you would know full well that your solution is definitely NOT input randomness at all.  They even specifically call out the “but can change the odds!” mentality as inadequate.
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Sutopia

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Re: Randomly buff hull mod on built ships?
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2018, 12:23:05 PM »

If you actually read the articles, you would know full well that your solution is definitely NOT input randomness at all.  They even specifically call out the “but can change the odds!” mentality as inadequate.
:o Ooops, obviously I was too tired and confused with all the phrasing.

So I see input randomness is "random challenge player can see and make decisions to solve"
while output randomness is "presss a buttton and XXX will come out at OOOO odd."
It seems like my suggestion is more like output randomness which is "bad".

Another aspect of this can be "what" is being generated randomly: a direct result or a target player will be making further decisions to "predictably" achieve. Under this aspect, input randomness is nothing more than a "scroll slot machine" instead of a "money slot machine". It's putting larger chunks of gameplay achievement/progression into the prize list rather than some small direct result. It's throwing a list of predictable incident at players in unpredictable order. I see this "randomness in predictable overall progression" may be a rather rigid game designing method.

I think the author is ignoring some critical part in output randomness otherwise: how the odds were determined.
For instance, an easy way to determine hit chance in RPG game is attacker Acc - defender Agi + some constant.
So if you want to hit enemy easily, you should "predictably" train and increase your Acc and you'll be getting overall better at the way you expected.
Some similar mechanics were already introduced in SS: salvage, ship recovery, etc.
Players' effort can change the "prize list" before you go up and pull the lever of the "slot machine" and that's how just about every RPG game implement and success.

To sum it up, both type of randomness have pros and cons:
Input randomness basically sticks on predictability. At first glance it seems perfectly fine for player facing "different but solvable challenge" all the time but when player skill reach certain level it's going back to laboring the game for the fact that they know how to deal with just about every circumstances.

Output randomness means, most of the time, nothing is guaranteed. Even if you made theoretical best moves you may still fail to achieve certain objectives that "if the rolls were better you could've made it". A common workaround is making a "least outcome" no matter how bad your rolls are so you'll be achieving the goal if "you're good enough". For example, in a test you get 40% of the point by rand (0,40) and the other 60% by your own knowledge. Scoring 50 is a pass: lucky ppl only need 10 more points while the good students can pass the test with no problem. It can "aid" some not-so-good players to actually "win" at times while keeping "good" players take victories "as granted". You know you should "study hard" in order to pass the test and that's the part player "moves" kicks in to alter the "result odds" (pass/fail ratio) and make the game generally acceptable.

Playing a fair dice can be frustrating, but if you’re able to load you dice, things can get interesting.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 12:42:29 PM by Sutopia »
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Goumindong

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Re: Randomly buff hull mod on built ships?
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2018, 12:51:22 PM »

More or less, and player production should be consistent.

Not just because it’s player output randomness but because production isn’t a core game mechanic it’s a supporting game mechanic. The purpose of production is to set you up with replacements for your fleet so you can go shoot mans. Its also there as a player value (I like my colonies and will take action to defend them) and objective but the main thing is to facilitate shooting

All adding those types of mods to ships would do would facilitate micromanagement. Micromanagement is not shooting
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Sutopia

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Re: Randomly buff hull mod on built ships?
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2018, 07:43:06 PM »

All adding those types of mods to ships would do would facilitate micromanagement. Micromanagement is not shooting

I don't see any possible micromanagement invovled, mind elaborate?
If any, I do see the "priority" settings when you order your factories to produce ships can make some trouble.
Then, from time to time, you randomly get a ship with random buff. You're generally not able to specific what buff it is but you can somehow change production preference to make it "tend to" generate certain buff.
Ships are just as good as how they were except you can get randomly buffed. If you were able to win battles with unbuffed ships there is no really impact on you while some not-so-good can potentially get better chances to fight better.
To me, it seems just as macro as recovering ships with d-mod if they are permanently irremovable. You know some ppl do keep ships d-moded to reduce their maint cost, including myself. It's just making positive effect instead of negatives of d-mods.

Changes as of June 01, 2018

  • Ship production "quality" is based on many factors and affects the number of d-mods a produced hull will have

« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 07:53:58 PM by Sutopia »
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Goumindong

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Re: Randomly buff hull mod on built ships?
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2018, 10:40:09 PM »

Because you have to filter through your produced ships in order to find the ones that have the random positive hull mods you want.
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