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[Baqar79]

It's definitely just more expensive for that specific case, but, well, making it more expensive is kind of the point. On the flip side of not caring about the replacement rate, you also don't care about the speed penalty, and the damage taken penalty doesn't seem huge in that case either - and if it is an issue, then the replacement rate is better, and that factors in too.

As far as larger ships, I *think* a higher cost for hullmod is probably warranted because fighters can add a lot of flexibility and act as a force multiplier for the ship; e.g. a wing of say Longbows is worth more on a ship with the firepower to back them up, etc. It kind of has to be a case of picking an optimal set of fighters for a ship to maximize the effectiveness, rather than slapping on any fighter being baseline-beneficial.


_{(It's hangar! Sorry; pet peeve.)}

I'm not really sure; if the speed is decreased and the damage taken is increased, then I would think it would be less able to take evasive action to reduce the incoming damage, making it still more fragile.  Though it is more the cost increase that seems excessive, currently I need 30 OP for the converted hangar and Xyphos wing, this gives me:

2 x Burst PD lasers (14 OP worth)
2 x Ion Beams (24 OP worth)

Alright, so looking at that a 50% increase isn't that bad and will bring it in line with the cost of the weapons they use (it feels expensive, but even these numbers are telling me that it isn't true).  Well looks like I've taken the wind out of that argument, but there is still the remaining OP cost of the hangar itself (That hangar/hanger will take some getting used to, so I may accidentally swap in the 'e' at anytime, so I apologize in advance ).

In most cases I've noticed with hull-mods there is a pretty good explanation or buff for the increase in OP cost that comes with different sizes of ships. eg
-Blast Doors (more crew, bigger ship)
-Reinforced Bulkheads (bigger ship, more volume to cover)
-Integrated Target Unit (better range)
-Unstable Injector (bigger engines for a heavier ship)
-Hardened Shields (bigger shield emitter, more volume to encapsulate)

If the hangar's is identical whether it is on a Destroyer/Cruiser/Capital Ship, what is causing the additional OP cost?

All right I guess this is where game balance comes in (rather than rationalizing the changes with what you expect in reality or the rules of a made up one), and if I'm a bit more honest there are some hull-mods that do this (eg Expanded Missile Racks depends on ship size rather than how many missiles you are using).

Maybe you could apply a bonus depending on the size of the ship the hangar is installed on:
Destroyer: -33% speed, +50% damage taken
Cruiser: -22% speed, +33.3% damage taken
Capital: -11% speed, +16.6% damage taken

In any case I like the changes for the Apogee for the most part, I'll miss the damage a bit and I'm just a little lost as what to do with those medium energy mounts now (kind of almost wish they would just disappear all together so I don't have to think about it), but those amazing shields are still there so it's all good.

My Favourite Apogee configuration in 0.8.1a:

Spoiler

[close]

(BTW, do you generally round down or up in the case of fighter OP costs?, (15*1.5 = 22.5) 22 OP would still allow me to use this same configuration here by removing the Expanded Magazines, although I'll likely change this with the new weapon arcs...hmmm...however as a thought, expanded magazines would increase the Autopulse Laser to 45 projectiles now wouldn't it?)

[Algro]

It's kinda sad to see the Apogee losing its two medium weapon slot frontal firepower because of the ship layout.

Apogee is my favorite ship and has always been since the 0.6 era, the extended 20% increased firing range was what made it unique out of the bunch. Although this was changed it still had its shields and my favorite heavy + medium long-range laser combo for map control.

My usage of this ship is to equip only a Locust, a Plasma Cannon, and two medium graviton beams. Using hull mods this ship can have massive flux dissipation rates, amazing shields, extreme range and complete usage of its only large energy mount. In this setup, everything counts, the two beams lock the enemy in place 1000+ range away and most importantly doesn't let the opponent recover flux. (I use no small slots because I expect some sort of escort)

But with this change, by losing two medium weapons, it almost loses all of its ability to keep its pressure on 1v1 engagements, and thus truly turning the Apogee into a support ship with only two large slots. This could be the intention, but it still nonetheless takes a massive chunk of its fighting potential away from it.

Being a rare ship with military capabilities and advanced scientific technologies, it already lost its high tech long-range edge when its system was changed, now the change threatens its usage as a capable military vessel. I really hope to see the two medium slots viable in combat and not turned into PD slots, even at the expense of higher deployment costs.

[Megas]

@ TaLaR:  Only light needlers are losing range.  It seems heavy needlers still keep 800 range.  That said, I agree with you that light needlers will probably be obsolete if railguns are an option.  Not only that, but refire delay will be even longer, so unless it outright overloads shields (for significant duration) like AM Blaster, so-called "burst damage" will be a wash.  OP totals for most ships are low, and I do not want to spend 2 more OP on a fancier railgun than a basic railgun.

Thought about heavy mauler a bit, and with its DPS cut, it seems it will go from all-purpose weapon to pure sniper weapon when range is paramount (like Gauss Cannon).  It may seem too much of a nerf if all else stays the same.  With less DPS, it would be nice if either accuracy is improved (heavy mauler's accuracy degrades enough with sustained fire) or its OP cost lowered a bit (to 10 or 11).

Also, Heavy Mauler will no longer be a pure upgrade over Heavy Mortar, but a sidegrade instead.  That is, trading DPS for range.  We have two medium HE weapons for mid-range combat or longer.  Heavy Mortar, which is slow and has 700 range, and Heavy Mauler, which will become a HE HVD with less accuracy.  I don't know about you (no one in particular), but Heavy Mortar is a bit of a pain to use, with slow shot speed and only 700 range, and mauler will fire slower, so two slow-firing weapons.  Currently, Heavy Mauler is the one HE to rule them all and clear upgrade over Heavy Mortar, but that will no longer be the case.  This means we will no longer have a fast, high-powered anti-armor medium weapon to use.  Basically, a new gap in medium anti-armor weaponry.  I almost want the classic Assault Chaingun back, but with better accuracy and 800 range.  In other words, I would not mind a clear medium-range upgrade over Heavy Mortar that costs 10+ OP, whatever it is.  Could be super LAG/chaingun or single-barreled Mjolnir with 800 range, anything aside from slow mortars or weak mauler.

Re: Apogee
While its lore has always been explorer ship, it was basically a warship of the line until 0.8, not unlike Venture.  Apogee is simply evolving toward its purpose.  However, I would not mind if the two small hardpoints were upgraded somehow.  They are kind of useless, poking with beams is not much help, and anything else is no good when enemies play keep away.

[Schwartz]

Yeah, Apogee will be more awkward to play with different medium arcs. I'm not sure what its role will be... it had good shield efficiency and was a bit lumbering, lending itself well to the sniper role. Now it's supposed to go into the thick of it, but it's not that agile for a front-facing gun boat.

Needlers did not need changing imo.
Mauler nerf is a bit much, half that would have been fine.

That's about it, everything else is AOK and I look forward to the changes.

Has that crackling sound issue when combat starts and everybody fires their afterburners ever been fixed? Because I bet that's because of many overlapping sound sources. Increasing the # of voices, we might get more crackling in places.

[Megas]

Yeah, Apogee will be more awkward to play with different medium arcs. I'm not sure what its role will be...

Non-combatant (after early game) that can use a few guns effectively if desperate, like Wayfarer, 0.8 Mule, and Venture.

[Sutopia]

I kind of wonder what arcs do Apogee's med energy mount get then?
I read they "not cover front", do they shoot at least parallel?
If they do it's still good to mount things like ion beams to add extra pressure as long range beam support, otherwise they'll both go burst PD(small) for me.

[Megas]

Either burst PD or left empty.  Apogee is a bit OP-starved if it wants to use plasma cannon and some missiles.  There is always Converted Hangar if it needs more weapons and you somehow have OP to burn.

[The Soldier]

I kind of wonder what arcs do Apogee's med energy mount get then?
I read they "not cover front", do they shoot at least parallel?
If they do it's still good to mount things like ion beams to add extra pressure as long range beam support, otherwise they'll both go burst PD(small) for me.

Currently, those arcs do shoot parallel.  The distance is pretty wide though.  With this update they'll not be able to do that.  They'll probably get used for point defense now, or just get rid of them for more spare OP (in my case, probably Converted Hangars).

[Sutopia]

Either burst PD or left empty.  Apogee is a bit OP-starved if it wants to use plasma cannon and some missiles.  There is always Converted Hangar if it needs more weapons and you somehow have OP to burn.

The converted hanger is now super OP consuming so it's out of the list. Just putting a longbow LPC is a total cost of 39 OP, which I don't think it really worth the price. Even just putting some fighters for PD, why not just get Apogee itself filled with burst PD? Maybe wasps fits, idk...

I've never considered using plasma cannon for Apogee, though. Considering it's cruiser hull, I prefer tachyon lance/tactical laser and squall build. As squall constantly build hard flux, tachyon lance starts to arc and rip the armor/hull. It doesn't have speed like sunder to gun and run thus range is quite essential.

[TaLaR]

@Megas
Yeah, it seems Heavy Needler does not get range nerf.

And you are correct that we won't have a decent HE weapon to pair it with. Heavy Mortar is too short ranged (700, but efficient range is even less due to shot speed) and Mauler is really low dps.
At this rate, Heavy Blaster will probably be the best medium 'HE'.

[Megas]

At this rate, Heavy Blaster will probably be the best medium 'HE'.

Not for ballistic mounts, which cannot use it.

Heavy Mortar's 700 range and slow shot speed makes it an awkward pair for Heavy AC/Needler.  Currently, Heavy Mauler is good enough to pair with AC/Needler (when HVD DPS is not enough), but not with the altered one in 0.9.

[intrinsic_parity]

I definitely agree that the forward small energies on apogee could use some change, they are pretty useless

[Megas]

Before 0.8, small energies were useful for AM Blasters or ion cannons for close range builds with autopulse up front and heavy blasters on the rear medium mounts, when AI did not cower and stall.  Even tac laser poke was handy before 0.8 because AI always kept shield up if in range.

Today, I am better off leaving them (and other mounts) blank so I have enough OP to tank up on flux stats and use plasma cannon effectively, maybe add Locusts as a finisher.

[Alex]

(That hangar/hanger will take some getting used to, so I may accidentally swap in the 'e' at anytime, so I apologize in advance ).

It's the effort that counts

In most cases I've noticed with hull-mods there is a pretty good explanation or buff for the increase in OP cost that comes with different sizes of ships. eg
-Blast Doors (more crew, bigger ship)
-Reinforced Bulkheads (bigger ship, more volume to cover)
-Integrated Target Unit (better range)
-Unstable Injector (bigger engines for a heavier ship)
-Hardened Shields (bigger shield emitter, more volume to encapsulate)

If the hangar's is identical whether it is on a Destroyer/Cruiser/Capital Ship, what is causing the additional OP cost?

All right I guess this is where game balance comes in (rather than rationalizing the changes with what you expect in reality or the rules of a made up one), and if I'm a bit more honest there are some hull-mods that do this (eg Expanded Missile Racks depends on ship size rather than how many missiles you are using).

Right, it's gameplay/balance driven. But it's fun (and usually easy!) to come up with some in-fiction reasons, too. So, let's see: it's a conversion of the ship's main hangar, right, or at least a portion of it. Presumably, for a larger ship, messing with its hangar disrupts the ship's operations more because, well, there's more to disrupt. It may have a larger hangar, meaning a smaller portion of it is converted, but that's not necessarily linear with the amount of disruption caused. More stuff has to be put on hold while those Talons are whizzing out of the hangar, or being repaired, you know? Can't just carry on regular operations with live ordnance being loaded in 10 feet away. Therefore: a higher OP cost.

My Favourite Apogee configuration in 0.8.1a:

Spoiler

[close]

Cool! I'm a fan of the Locust myself, it's really versatile.

(BTW, do you generally round down or up in the case of fighter OP costs?, (15*1.5 = 22.5) 22 OP would still allow me to use this same configuration here by removing the Expanded Magazines, although I'll likely change this with the new weapon arcs...hmmm...however as a thought, expanded magazines would increase the Autopulse Laser to 45 projectiles now wouldn't it?)

It's rounded, so it'd be 23 OP.

Being a rare ship with military capabilities and advanced scientific technologies, it already lost its high tech long-range edge when its system was changed, now the change threatens its usage as a capable military vessel. I really hope to see the two medium slots viable in combat and not turned into PD slots, even at the expense of higher deployment costs.

Re: Apogee
While its lore has always been explorer ship, it was basically a warship of the line until 0.8, not unlike Venture.  Apogee is simply evolving toward its purpose.  However, I would not mind if the two small hardpoints were upgraded somehow.  They are kind of useless, poking with beams is not much help, and anything else is no good when enemies play keep away.

Yep, very much this. Keep in mind it's also way, way cheaper to deploy now.

Has that crackling sound issue when combat starts and everybody fires their afterburners ever been fixed? Because I bet that's because of many overlapping sound sources. Increasing the # of voices, we might get more crackling in places.

I haven't actually experienced this myself, so it's not a universal thing, though I do know what you're talking about. In general, things should be better in this department becaus of some changes to the combat sounds which separate them out into different frequency ranges more.


Re: Heavy Mauler - hmm, I think you all might be 1) underestimating how great it was to begin with, and 2) overestimating the importance of raw DPS for an HE weapon. I guess we'll see how it plays out, though!

I will say that in general I'm ok with the "medium HE" niche being somewhat underwhelming because that's a gap that can be more easily filled in with missiles of various flavors.

[FooF]

re: Apogee

For being a potential starter ship, it has to be toned down. I think for an exploration vessel, medium hardpoint arcs notwithstanding, it's still pretty well-armed. That it's able to do its intended role now is just par for the course.

re: Heavy Mauler

It really was The King and nothing else came close. That it's nerfed doesn't make it bad, it just puts it on par with everything else. It's closer to the HVD now, which is still a good weapon. It still crushes armor and at range. Misses will hurt a lot, though.

Now the real question that needs to be answered is where is the Light Mauler? A higher damage-per-shot, low-RoF, long-range Small HE would be welcome.