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Author Topic: Starsector 0.9a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 304383 times)

TaLaR

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Re: Starsector 0.9a (In-Dev) Patch Notes
« Reply #270 on: September 22, 2018, 07:51:52 AM »

also we are going to need at least an additional missile destroyer (buffalo doesn't count as it sucks.. or at least make it better) converted merchantmen are all well and good but to truly embrace the MMM destiny we will need some heavier ordnance.

Buffalo is decent in terms of deployment cost to killing power ratio. The only problem - it's not sufficiently willing to commit to all-out-sabot spam strategy, which is the only thing it's good for.
Still, skill-less auto-piloted Paragon loses to less than it's worth of deployment points in sabot+swarmer+converted hangar talon Buffalos. And same equation seems to hold true for most other cruisers/capitals. I suppose some dedicated counter builds are possible, but against conventional builds Buffalos win decisively.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Starsector 0.9a (In-Dev) Patch Notes
« Reply #271 on: September 22, 2018, 09:06:34 AM »

I think thats more because sabots (and maybe talons) are a bit too strong and less because buffalos are any good.
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.9a (In-Dev) Patch Notes
« Reply #272 on: September 22, 2018, 09:11:31 AM »

Missiles are my bread and butter and the only thing stopping me from being known as a Missile Platform rather than a ship is the limitations on hardpoints.

Any chance we'll see some form of customization that'll let me become a missile man?

Sorry, I'm afraid not :) Missiles don't generally build up flux - and often have highly limited ammo - so they are near impossible to balance if they could be mass-installed on a ship. That goes double if they could be installed on *any* ship, not one specifically meant for it.
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Shrugger

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Re: Starsector 0.9a (In-Dev) Patch Notes
« Reply #273 on: September 22, 2018, 10:02:02 AM »

I guess you could make do with taking a missile-focused ship and not installing any non-missile weapons, spending your OP on the best missiles and hull mods instead?
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TaLaR

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Re: Starsector 0.9a (In-Dev) Patch Notes
« Reply #274 on: September 22, 2018, 10:49:45 AM »

I think thats more because sabots (and maybe talons) are a bit too strong and less because buffalos are any good.

Yeah, but what platform can pack as much per DP? It's 1 med missile + 3 small missile + 2 Tac lasers + Talon wing (slow replenish) per 4 DP, and 2 Vulcans to not get swatted by missiles right away. No armor or shields, but you can do without them if you suppress enemy with sabots.
Sabots are strong, but also very limited. For normal ships going Sabot heavy means crippling long term play. But Buffalos have no long term play to speak of, so for them it's not an important drawback.

Anyway, player can't use such attrition tactics in campaign. Plus they are definitely not fuel-cheap, only supply-cheap. But in a narrow sense, Buffalos are worth their DP cost alright, if correctly built.
Pirates running around with Buffalo stampedes could be fun though :) .
« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 12:42:49 PM by TaLaR »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Starsector 0.9a (In-Dev) Patch Notes
« Reply #275 on: September 22, 2018, 01:11:38 PM »

If you put any other missile in those slots, then the ships is terrible. This implies that 12 OP of missiles/4 dp is not good, it's just that stacking sabots is OP. I think the ship need a lot of help to be useful, especially in the campaign.
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TaLaR

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Re: Starsector 0.9a (In-Dev) Patch Notes
« Reply #276 on: September 22, 2018, 02:30:09 PM »

If you put any other missile in those slots, then the ships is terrible. This implies that 12 OP of missiles/4 dp is not good, it's just that stacking sabots is OP. I think the ship need a lot of help to be useful, especially in the campaign.

Any reasonable variant has to be able to handle both shield and armor, and shield is the more important part. Buffalo has no other options than medium Sabots for shields, so it's an obvious pick.

Small Sabot - 3000 (x3, 4 OP, 750 per OP)
Medium Sabot - 12000 (x12, 10 OP, 1200 per OP)

Clearly, taking small Sabots + whatever in medium slot is non-viable.
And even if Sabots were to be nerfed, there is just no alternative option. There is no small energy kinetics and Longbows/Broadswords are both too OP-expensive and unsustainable with low replenishment rate. And just plain not enough on their own.



« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 02:45:50 PM by TaLaR »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Starsector 0.9a (In-Dev) Patch Notes
« Reply #277 on: September 22, 2018, 03:07:57 PM »

This is the same state the Odyssey was in, with only one viable load out, that depends on a particularly strong weapon, and is of questionable value anyway. I think the complaints about the odyssey were valid and Alex also must have since he is changing it.

Anyway, player can't use such attrition tactics in campaign. Plus they are definitely not fuel-cheap, only supply-cheap. But in a narrow sense, Buffalos are worth their DP cost alright, if correctly built.
So what you're saying is that the Buffalo needs buffs to be useful to the player in the campaign. If it's worth its dp cost but only to the AI (or in non-campaign scenarios) with a very specific load out , what's the point? The AI doesn't care about supplies, and doesn't use the right load out or deploy them in large numbers, unless it just exists to be slaughtered and the player should never use it, which is not fun/good balance IMO.

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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.9a (In-Dev) Patch Notes
« Reply #278 on: September 22, 2018, 03:41:08 PM »

Quote
unless it just exists to be slaughtered and the player should never use it, which is not fun/good balance IMO.
Only if both sides need to be balanced.  If you need wimps that level 1 characters can fight and win, then such obviously inferior options serve their purpose.  Pirates are the rats, goblins, and kobolds in space that players get to kill before they become strong enough to safely take on dragons and kings.

Buffalo 2 has struck me as an obviously inferior ship for pirates to use, much like Thumper for weapons.  (Pre-0.8 Thumper was so bad that empty mount was a better option.)
« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 03:43:33 PM by Megas »
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Cik

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Re: Starsector 0.9a (In-Dev) Patch Notes
« Reply #279 on: September 22, 2018, 07:46:39 PM »

ultimately it could be made useful for players as long as it was made suitably cheap to deploy and recover.

for AI, anything can be good as long as it has sufficient mass.
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Voyager I

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Re: Starsector 0.9a (In-Dev) Patch Notes
« Reply #280 on: September 22, 2018, 08:55:50 PM »

Quote
unless it just exists to be slaughtered and the player should never use it, which is not fun/good balance IMO.
Only if both sides need to be balanced.  If you need wimps that level 1 characters can fight and win, then such obviously inferior options serve their purpose.  Pirates are the rats, goblins, and kobolds in space that players get to kill before they become strong enough to safely take on dragons and kings.

Buffalo 2 has struck me as an obviously inferior ship for pirates to use, much like Thumper for weapons.  (Pre-0.8 Thumper was so bad that empty mount was a better option.)

Yeah basically the whole purpose of Pirate ships is to be garbage fodder for new characters to farm.  I don't think there's a single P ship you would ever want in your fleet unless you were leaning really hard into a clunker run, but their existence serves a necessary role for the game.
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Ali

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Re: Starsector 0.9a (In-Dev) Patch Notes
« Reply #281 on: September 23, 2018, 06:40:03 AM »

Will all the currently empty skill slots on character screen get filled? i think there's 2 missing from leadership, 4 from tech and 5 from industry...

Any plans to add more hull mods please!!??  ( With positive effects only!! )

Would love to see a hull modd that can be installed to remove fighter bays in place for boost such as more flux capacity or across the board stat boost.. ( i know that's a bit contradictory to above comment ;p )

Also some more non-combat hullmods? So can further boost salvage, cargo vessel's etc...

Can't wait for release!!!!
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Arkiuz

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Re: Starsector 0.9a (In-Dev) Patch Notes
« Reply #282 on: September 23, 2018, 12:44:45 PM »

Missiles are my bread and butter and the only thing stopping me from being known as a Missile Platform rather than a ship is the limitations on hardpoints.

Any chance we'll see some form of customization that'll let me become a missile man?

Sorry, I'm afraid not :) Missiles don't generally build up flux - and often have highly limited ammo - so they are near impossible to balance if they could be mass-installed on a ship. That goes double if they could be installed on *any* ship, not one specifically meant for it.

Heck your balance!  Gimme explosions!
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Linnis

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Re: Starsector 0.9a (In-Dev) Patch Notes
« Reply #283 on: September 23, 2018, 01:55:21 PM »

Well there could be a hull mod with something like increase missile capacity by 500% but each missile weapon require 3× the op cost.
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Ranakastrasz

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Re: Starsector 0.9a (In-Dev) Patch Notes
« Reply #284 on: September 23, 2018, 02:39:04 PM »

Missiles are my bread and butter and the only thing stopping me from being known as a Missile Platform rather than a ship is the limitations on hardpoints.

Any chance we'll see some form of customization that'll let me become a missile man?

Sorry, I'm afraid not :) Missiles don't generally build up flux - and often have highly limited ammo - so they are near impossible to balance if they could be mass-installed on a ship. That goes double if they could be installed on *any* ship, not one specifically meant for it.

Heck your balance!  Gimme explosions!

This Complete overhaul certainly makes missiles quite common. It pretty much goes with the idea that missiles and fighters are infinite resources like all other weapons, alters PD to match, and it didn't fundamentally break anything.
https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=13183.0

That said, As the game is vanilla wise, Missiles are powerful but run out fast, so really aren't like normal weapons at all.
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