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Author Topic: Starsector 0.9a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 279398 times)

StarGibbon

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Re: Starsector 0.9a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #930 on: November 23, 2018, 12:07:08 PM »

Returning player here for the new build.

Tutorial battle still far too difficult for a *tutorial*.  I'm a long time player and was  comfortable with .8 combat, but Im struggling with this fight with the exceptionally bad D-mods on the starter fleet. If an experienced player has this much trouble just from being rusty, a new player is going to be frustrated. I realize the fleets can be evaded, but that is not what the tutorial steers the player to, having just handed them a new fleet and a bunch of weapons. The most experienced continuous players have probably lost their ability to fairly gauge this, as anything save for the most extreme challenge feels trivial to them with all their game knowledge.

Steam games are refunded in the first two hours. The unforgiving nature of the random, open gameworld already gives challenge oriented players plenty to chest thump about, and nobody has ever returned a game because it *didn't* force them to reload the same battle a dozen times during the first 30 minutes. I don't see any good reason to force players to fail over and over again in the tutorial.  Let players get hooked with some early successes before beating them with the "git gud" stick.
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Venatos

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Re: Starsector 0.9a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #931 on: November 23, 2018, 12:49:11 PM »

Returning player here for the new build.

Tutorial battle still far too difficult for a *tutorial*.  etc.


returning player here too, i just played the tutorial 2 days ago.
i started on normal difficulty with the big combatfleet, the tutorial just about doubled my fleet before the big tutorial endfight and it pretty much played itself as i remember.
did you by any chance take the hard or merchant start?

edit: either way, the tutorial should allways be exeptionaly easy, so if the endfight needs some cutting back, im all for it.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 12:54:08 PM by Venatos »
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Fandanguero

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Re: Starsector 0.9a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #932 on: November 23, 2018, 01:07:43 PM »

So, system-wide bonus-giving structures are not defended and our patrols don't recapture them?
I do not know.  Remnant fleet captured my relay one time.  I do not remember if I recaptured it or one of my small patrols did.
One of patrols did recapture it after some time.
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Shad

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Re: Starsector 0.9a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #933 on: November 23, 2018, 01:14:27 PM »

I'm loving the revamped Doom Cruiser. It really is a nightmare in the right hands. BTW, the phase mines make for an excellent way to clear fighter formations.
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StarGibbon

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Re: Starsector 0.9a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #934 on: November 23, 2018, 01:25:33 PM »


returning player here too, i just played the tutorial 2 days ago.
i started on normal difficulty with the big combatfleet, the tutorial just about doubled my fleet before the big tutorial endfight and it pretty much played itself as i remember.


edit: either way, the tutorial should allways be exeptionaly easy, so if the endfight needs some cutting back, im all for it.

Not certain I understand. I started with the wolf and the drone tender on normal difficulty, and was given the combat-useless crew carrier, crippled hammerhead, crippled condor, and another wolf from the salvage mission. No other ships were recoverable, and there was no further "doubling" of the fleet.  Had to reload the battle against the enemy fleet containing the hammerhead and the rocket cruiser at least 6 times before I made it through without unacceptable losses. The D-mods on the salvaged ships seemed especially severe (a damaged flight deck on a carrier renders it essentially useless).

I realize this opens the door for everyone to tell me how much I suck, which is fair, but Im just telling you if I found it problematic, then there are plenty of other new players who will too. If the tutorial requires overly specific strategy or skill selection to succeed without explaining this, there's a problem.

Personally, I would remove the larger ships from the tutorial fight altogether. Let them fight waves of smaller ships which even a new player should  be able to shoot their way through without optimized strategy, and quantity can stretch the battle out for an epic feel.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.9a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #935 on: November 23, 2018, 01:57:44 PM »

When I started 0.9, I got lucky and both fleets moved far enough away from the gate that I could sneak to it and fix it, return to base, then fight the gate guards after the bounty was posted for free money.

0.9 AI still has a trace of the cowardly behavior from 0.8, though not quite as severe.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.9a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #936 on: November 23, 2018, 02:12:57 PM »

Just plopped down my fifth colony on a Arid world with 100% hazard, mostly as a waystation world, and reactivated a Domain comm for news.  Unfortunately, it has positive growth (even with my inferior admins) so it is a matter of time before it reaches size 4.  After my experience with Independent relay jumpers, reloading game to colonize without the relay probably means the indies will take the comm relay (and then I cannot take it later without becoming enemies with Independents).

I wish there was a way to freeze growth or abandon colony regardless of size.  I like to setup some colonies as a temporary base.  It would be annoying if I need to abandon bases periodically just to prevent permanent lockup of my colony or admin slots.  (It would be tacky if I need to rely on enemies or destabilization to remove grown colonies I do not want anymore.)

Speaking of growth, eventually, I need to swap my character for an admin with negative growth to maintain size 3 on gas giant colony.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Starsector 0.9a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #937 on: November 23, 2018, 02:24:21 PM »

The D-mods on the salvaged ships seemed especially severe (a damaged flight deck on a carrier renders it essentially useless).

I think the tutorial ships' D-mods are random. (Which is very bad IMO, for cases like this.)
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Shoat

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Re: Starsector 0.9a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #938 on: November 23, 2018, 02:47:16 PM »

The D-mods on the salvaged ships seemed especially severe (a damaged flight deck on a carrier renders it essentially useless).

Wow. You're gonna have a very tough time in 0.9 if you are that unreasonably picky.

The damaged flight deck is fine, having any fighters (even talons and broadswords) out at all is a HUGE difference in an early game "both you and the enemy have tons of d-modded crap ships" battle and can very easily swing the fight on their own, even with reduced speed and health from a damaged manufactory or with reduced replace rate from the other fighter d-mod.
2 sets of basic fighters with that d-mod debuff can still solo-kill any destroyers (or venture) in those tutorial battles (i literally just quickly re-did the entire tutorial to test this to make sure i wasn't just lucky in my past few savefiles) while you just dart around punching frigates. Heck, in the second battle I just hung back and did nothing and still won with no losses.


The other d-mods aren't a big deal, either, your opponents' ships are just as *** as yours and you outnumber them (after salvaging ships in the tutorial, your fleet is bigger than either of the two pirate fleets, and they don't seem very enthusiastic to engage 2v1).


Again, I do not understand how you can find this tutorial battle difficult. If you have to restart 6 times to "not have unacceptable losses" (which is already questionable, if you consider all the d-modded ships you're given "useless" how can any los be "unacceptable"?) I wonder how the hell you're playing the game, if I can quickly destroy those without any ship taking hull damage at all, on normal difficulty, without putting in all my skill points (to save time in this quick test run).
Those battles are extremely easy given the huge pile of advantages the game gives you to prepare for them.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 02:49:36 PM by Shoat »
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StarGibbon

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Re: Starsector 0.9a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #939 on: November 23, 2018, 03:18:52 PM »

I wonder how the hell you're playing the game, if I can quickly destroy those without any ship taking hull damage at all, on normal difficulty, without putting in all my skill points (to save time in this quick test run).

Alright. Took at least 4 replies for someone to be a complete ***, obliviously missing the point. By modern internet standards that's actually pretty decent, so the forum can feel--good?--about that I guess.  If you don't want to pay attention to someone reporting a problem that it's possible to have in the first few minutes of the game, in the age of the 2 hour Steam refund, that's fine. But I've got better things to do.

Please carry on thumping your chest. I'm going to demonstrate how impressed I am by doing almost anything else.  Continue talking about how great you are at the game, and write really long indignant responses to this one. I promise you Im going to be listening very closely, and not, you know, forgetting that I even bothered to report it 5 minutes from now.
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SCC

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Re: Starsector 0.9a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #940 on: November 23, 2018, 03:28:47 PM »

It's true, though. In 0.9 there are many more (D) mods and less methods of preventing (D) mods from occurring. Most of them render the affected ships "essentially useless", so you just have to clench your teeth and make up for (D) mods with skills, or cough up for restoration.

Sy

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Re: Starsector 0.9a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #941 on: November 23, 2018, 03:52:36 PM »

I'm loving the revamped Doom Cruiser.
+1 to that!

also, i feel it needs to be said, the sound effects of the mines are amazing. many great new sounds in 0.9 in general, and i especially love the varied and tiered skill-up ones, but those teleporting mines are still my favorites. sooo satisfying, and scary if i'm on the receiving end. ^^
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.9a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #942 on: November 23, 2018, 04:02:09 PM »

Returning player here for the new build.

Tutorial battle still far too difficult for a *tutorial*.  I'm a long time player and was  comfortable with .8 combat, but Im struggling with this fight with the exceptionally bad D-mods on the starter fleet. If an experienced player has this much trouble just from being rusty, a new player is going to be frustrated. I realize the fleets can be evaded, but that is not what the tutorial steers the player to, having just handed them a new fleet and a bunch of weapons. The most experienced continuous players have probably lost their ability to fairly gauge this, as anything save for the most extreme challenge feels trivial to them with all their game knowledge.

Steam games are refunded in the first two hours. The unforgiving nature of the random, open gameworld already gives challenge oriented players plenty to chest thump about, and nobody has ever returned a game because it *didn't* force them to reload the same battle a dozen times during the first 30 minutes. I don't see any good reason to force players to fail over and over again in the tutorial.  Let players get hooked with some early successes before beating them with the "git gud" stick.

I appreciate the feedback! This is a bit of a tough call for me. I feel like the tutorial should prepare the player to play the game. Having to reload multiple times to win this fight ... well, it contributes towards that goal, doesn't it? It's the game saying "you *can* do this sort of fight", and it sets up some expectations regarding possible difficulty.

That seems better than the player breezing through an easy fight at the end of the tutorial, and then more organically running into a fight they can't win - and don't know whether or not they're supposed to be able to win. That's practically unavoidable at some point and will happen anyway.

In some sense, the final tutorial battle is like a pre-defined main-menu mission - the thing that it's often advised for newer players to do to get better at combat - but integrated into the campaign.

On the flip side, it could also be frustrating; I hear that. But, well, it'd also be frustrating to get into the same situation a few minutes later after finishing the tutorial, wouldn't it? At least this is a more controlled environment.

(Side note: on "easy", the fight is indeed easier, it doesn't have a Venture.)


I'm loving the revamped Doom Cruiser.
+1 to that!

also, i feel it needs to be said, the sound effects of the mines are amazing. many great new sounds in 0.9 in general, and i especially love the varied and tiered skill-up ones, but those teleporting mines are still my favorites. sooo satisfying, and scary if i'm on the receiving end. ^^

:D I really love what Stian did with those!
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BillyRueben

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Re: Starsector 0.9a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #943 on: November 23, 2018, 04:09:52 PM »

Just did my own quick test run of the tutorial, and I can see Star's point. I didn't use any skills, made sure to select the normal difficulty, and used Autofit to equip my fleet. I ended up going 2v1 against the pirate fleets. I was piloting the Wolf frigate, and I didn't give any of my ships orders. The fight was a little harder than I expected. Granted, I didn't use any of the knowledge I used during my playthroughs of the game (don't approach a Sunder from the front, use a phase skimmer to get around the Hammerhead and shoot it in the engines, ect.). The tutorial could end a little easier, but then the rest of the game is a little rough at the start for a new player as well. It's kind of a toss up for me.

Personally, I would remove the larger ships from the tutorial fight altogether. Let them fight waves of smaller ships which even a new player should  be able to shoot their way through without optimized strategy, and quantity can stretch the battle out for an epic feel.

I think that is a pretty decent compromise. Introduce the player to a good helping of frigates, so they can get their feet wet. I think it would also be a good idea to have a larger fleet in the system, and tempt the player with a nice bonus if they want to tackle it.

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Venatos

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Re: Starsector 0.9a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #944 on: November 23, 2018, 04:35:53 PM »


I think that is a pretty decent compromise. Introduce the player to a good helping of frigates, so they can get their feet wet. I think it would also be a good idea to have a larger fleet in the system, and tempt the player with a nice bonus if they want to tackle it.


+1 to that, the tutorial endfight should be one that shows the new-player what he can attack and win consistently, with a harder optional fight for some extra cash and xp, if he feels up for it.
i think there should be 1 destroyer as flagship in the enemy fleet to give the player a little taste, but let him have the "weight" advantage.
after that he knows what 1 destroyer can do and will be carefull around 3+ destroyer fleets.
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