Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: A Case for the Gemini  (Read 5814 times)

Philder

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 142
    • View Profile
A Case for the Gemini
« on: April 06, 2018, 10:15:39 PM »

Most people probably don't like the Gemini given the cost and what you get in it as a combat ship, but after some thinking I believe that it can be made viable. Not the best, no, but viable enough to be an additional option when you're in the early and mid-game and are struggling to get ships that can more quickly deal with the enemy with lower risks of death.

Now, why do I think the Gemini can be worthwhile? 4 things: Reserve Deployment, Medium Missile slot, EMP, and Medium Ballistic slots.

First, RD: RD's benefits are quite obvious to most people, but to optimize it you have to play to its strengths: utilize wings and fighters with longer times to replenish both individual ships and whole wings, and wings that strongly benefit from the number of additional craft. The magic numbers are 2 and 4, which give you 1 and 2 (respectively) additional fighters for the best bang for your buck.

Medium Missile Slot: Both the Annihilator Pod and Pilum LRM have good damage, and tons of ammo to fire on potentially many many different targets. The only problem is that they're either too slow, weak or dumbfire. And that's where EMP comes in.

EMP: I really like fighters with EMP for two reasons. EMP typically costs a lot of flux, so offloading it onto your fighters is free flux dissipation for you, and fighters will naturally flank, so killing ships engines is a breeze, making them sitting ducks for your various missiles.

Medium Ballistic Slots: Medium Ballistics gives you access to excellent PD and more easily accessible long ranged kinetic weapons to kill your opponents shields. Gemini has comparitively more limited flux dissipation considering it's weapon mounts, so you can really only afford a single kinetic weapon. Ideally a Heavy Needler, but Heavy Autocannon, Arbalest, Light Needler or Railgun are fine, too. As for the other slot, I like a Flak Cannon for the PD, range and efficiency. If a frigate gets within range, it's highly efficient as a whole against the combination of defenses. Dual Flak is good too. And you can eventually drop an HVD or two on it to keep it effective in mid-game.

Anyway, the strategy here is essentially just disable engines, overwhelm shields, missiles go kaboom, and to do that you're going to need either a Thunder or Claw wing. Thunder benefits from getting a 50% increase in the number of fighters in the wing from RD and circumventing the long 15sec base replacement time (2x15sec=30sec). Claw benefits from a lesser increase of fighters, but can replace a larger build time equivalent of fighters (5x8=40sec). I prefer the Thunder because they're much faster, provide greater shield pressure, the rockets are nice distractions for the PD, they themselves are helpful as PD, and their massive engagement range also pretty much guarantees you can catch a ship trying to flee. Claws are great totally disabling ships, however, so they go well with Pilums if you can't get your hands on Anni Pods.

Devils Advocate: You can do a similar build with the other two carrier destroyers. Condor is slightly cheaper, but doesn't open up the option for Medium Ballistic weapons and has drastically worse flux stats. It also doesn't have Reserve Deployment. While that's easily offset by having two flight decks, it also means you'll need to procure an additional fighter lpc, which can create some problems. Getting your hands on two Thunder lpcs is going to be difficult, and mixing Thunders with another type will have compatibility problems; your Thunder fighters will always get to the target first, which may result in their premature death, meaning you now have wait to for them to rebuild to get that EMP on the ship engines. If your other wing is a Claw, what's the point of having the Thunders if they're going to have trouble with replenishment and getting their EMP off? Might aswell opt for something more effective against shields....but then you lose the incredible speed and engagement range to chase flee'ers.

Drover only suffers from being stuck with small slots, but that's sort of made up by the higher flux stats, additional missile slots, and additional fight deck. You would go with 4x Swarmer instead of 1x Anni Pod. If I had a choice, I'd pick the Drover as it has a higher ceiling of capability and viability further into the campaign. It is, however, 33% more expensive and requires more slots filled with potentially rarer stuff.

And finally, the cargo space is also really nice at the beginning of the game. Many people underestimate the usefulness of gratuitous amounts of cargo space, especially at the beginning of the game, even if you're going full bounty-hunter. Think of how often you have to keep going back and forth to sell stuff. That ends up turning into a lot of wasted monthly supply and wasted time while bounties tick away. It also limits how many supplies people are willing to stock up on. One of the things that helps me tremendously with early game is hunting for cheap supplies and getting as many as I can afford and fit into my fleet. And because supplies cost so damn much in the majority of stations, it's very simple to liquidate my stash (for a significant profit) when I need to buy something.

Again. Not saying Gemini is exceptionally good. Just saying it's viable early to mid game until you replace it with more efficient carriers, freighters, and platforms for long-range kinetics.
Logged

MajorTheRed

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 289
    • View Profile
Re: A Case for the Gemini
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2018, 07:51:05 AM »

I rarely get a Gemini in my fleet because I rarely found one, and in late game I take dedicated carrier and haulers.
Still, I like to get one early on. When you have not so much cash, to have a 2-in-1 ship. Most often I use the standard layout but use the Wasp wing. He is deployed only in case the ennemy fleet is too big (hello, pirate-fleet-spawning-in-your-face-just-after-you-jump-just-because....) or when I need an additional interceptor cover.
Logged

xenoargh

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 5078
  • naively breaking things!
    • View Profile
Re: A Case for the Gemini
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2018, 09:14:08 AM »

If Geminis and Thunders were readily available and the Gemini was a little more functional, this isn't a terrible idea, although I don't think you'd keep the Gemini past 100K Bounties.  I don't think it has much of a role past that point, though, mainly due to some basic factors:

1.  No matter how you equip one, the Gemini should not engage anything in direct combat unless defensively (much like the Condor) but, unlike the Condor, it only has one Wing.  For the cost to deploy one, you should get Condors and keep them peripheral to the main battle line. 

2.  Compared to the Drover, where you can give it Railguns and ITU and expect it to stay away from threats when dealing with a defensive battle while putting Hard Flux on targets, the Gemini's offensive options are pretty bad.  Given that the weapons are mounted towards the rear, it is at a decided disadvantage there, and it's so fragile that it can be expected to eat missile strikes past early game.

3.  The Gemini would be fine if it launched two Wings, or if it had built-in Drones again (and, well, if the Drones were a little better) and enough speed to stay out of trouble.  The older Gemini was almost, but not quite, functional; the Drones kept it from being quite as squishy as it is now, by absorbing some missiles and fighters.  I'd like to see a better version of the Mid Tech drones on a Gemini, making it like a Shepherd+.  Also, the Gemini is a little OP-starved; it needs about 10 more to really have a good solid build.

4. The Gemini is simply too rare and Thunders are too rare for any of this to be more than theoretical most of the time.  By the time I see both in the same place, I usually have a Drover or a couple of Condors.  A Drover's superior in every way that matters and two Condors are not only cheap, they're almost totally expendable; if I lose them during midgame play, I'm usually already so far ahead on Credits that I simply repair them or start replacing them with endgame gear.
Logged
Please check out my SS projects :)
Xeno's Mod Pack

Philder

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 142
    • View Profile
Re: A Case for the Gemini
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2018, 11:05:32 AM »

I'm not so pessimistic about the differences between the three carrier destroyers. The medium slots are a distinct advantage over the Drover for the reasons I previously mentioned. I agree with most of your points, though definitely not about its vulnerability to missiles and range issues. Again, you can equip a Flak or Dual Flak which is exceedingly superior to small ballistic PD and fighter PD except Burst PD Laser, but then you'd be giving up offensive options to acquire that Burst PD. You can also give it an HVD to stay out of trouble. On the Drover, you only have two small slots for PD, so your choice for missile PD is two *** small PD, or one *** small PD and one lesser offensive kinetic weapon. Like I said before, Medium Ballistic gives you many more options, and in the case of PD, much better options. When it comes to onboard weapons, Gemini is definitely superior.

Condor is also very much weaker on the defensive side. And without RD it can't quickly replenish it's wings, making it a little easier to get passed its fighter screen. Combine that with its weak weapons and defenses means that it can't hold up against offense whatsoever. Its ONLY strength is cheap fighters. The Gemini at least has the defenses to hold up against frigates without its fighters, at the very least.

Think about it this way: 6 supplies/mo is half a Drover. Take half a drover, and consider what you get for that 3 additional monthly cost. For 3 supplies, you get upgraded to a Medium Ballistic mount plus an extra, a more OP efficient Medium Missile mount, 210 additional cargo space, less crew required, more spare crew capacity for fighter expenditure, nearly half the initial CR cost to deploy, and an omni shield. The only thing you lose is a bit of flux, armor and hull stats, and speed. Against frigates, the speed is negligible because all frigates will be faster than you either 50 or 75. The speed is only useful when you're facing cruisers and up.

The speed and flight decks of the Drover is the only reason it's a superior pick for mid-game, which I already said. By the time the Gemini can no longer trade shots, the Drover will have long since lost its ability to trade shots safely.

Again, not saying Gemini is the best pick. Just saying it's a viable alternative.
Logged

Goumindong

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1896
    • View Profile
Re: A Case for the Gemini
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2018, 12:34:27 PM »

The real problem for the Gemini is that it’s easier to field a mule and Drover (16 DP) and stick a bulkhead and burst laser on the mule. Than it is to field two Gemini. Two Gemini is 18 DP for 2 bays, 4 effective missiles*, and 4 med slots you can barely use... with 250 Armor.

The Drover+Mule is 6 effective missiles with 650 Armor. And one can easily be fit for what is essentially suicide defense with heavy armor and a bulwark.

Also possible is Condor/Mule for a total DP of 14.

*unless you use harpoons/Sabots. Then it’s 8. But these aren’t easy to find early.
Logged

Philder

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 142
    • View Profile
Re: A Case for the Gemini
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2018, 06:58:16 PM »

Sorry, I disagree with all of your reasonings.

DP isn't an issue early game, or midgame if you aren't fielding trash ships/loadouts. Deployment cost is more important, IMO, and as I said before, Drover is nearly twice as expensive to deploy.

Your equivalencies are erroneus. Mount sizes are not scalar. Each mount size and type have their own unique options. If your reasoning was true, a mass of OP equivalent frigates would be just as good as their capital counterpart.

I've already outlined an outfitting for Gemini med ballistics that works with its flux stats. "...and 4 med slots you can barely use." is just obtuse fudging. Burst Lasers on this scale also aren't nearly as effective as Flak.

Armor is not end-all be-all of tanking.

See my previous comments on Condors.

Harpoons/Sabots have three uses. Annilator Pods have 100. Pilums have infinite. Even if you equivocate Anni Pods to Harps/Sabs as far as damage done, Anni Pods still come out way ahead, even if you count misses.

.....AGAIN: Not saying Gemini is the best pick. Just saying it's a viable alternative.
Logged

xenoargh

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 5078
  • naively breaking things!
    • View Profile
Re: A Case for the Gemini
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2018, 07:45:09 PM »

I agree with Philder, regarding DP:  Gemini is off the table before that matters.  But, for what it's worth, the Condor and Drover aren't, at least if you're willing to lose them. 

I'm not saying the Gemini's trash, really it's not.   It's more that it's almost good at a bunch of things, but it's not good enough at any of them to be great. 

It's not quite fast enough to be the fast, kiting Destroyer-carrier.  It's not quite well-armed enough to be the offensive one (Drover has that in spades, imo) and the Condor's so easy to get and is so expendable, I largely don't care if it dies past midgame.

I think Gemini's best niche would be as the defensive carrier.  Drover's the obvious choice on offense and the Condor's the choice if you just want cheap; it's always been a flimsy piece of junk and I don't really mind that, so long as it has two Wings (at one, there'd be no point to it).  I'd like a carrier that I can just leave alone and not expect it to get killed by casual attacks, but which I cannot expect to send in deep without it dying.  The Gemini almost fits the bill, but it's just not quite there; it's too slow to elude Destoyers, too weak against fast-movers.  If it had that role, I'd be OK with it, even at one Wing.
Logged
Please check out my SS projects :)
Xeno's Mod Pack

Philder

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 142
    • View Profile
Re: A Case for the Gemini
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2018, 01:42:46 PM »

IMO Condor's are at their most effective when used to fuel a fighter swarm. ie: when there's no chance that they'll get attacked. Unstable Injectors are also a must; to keep them safe and give them chase. And the only weapon I'd give them is Salamander Pod or Pilum, for fear they'd think they can trade shots with anything.

Expendable is expensive, though. LPCs aren't cheap. IMO it's too expensive to be a true expendable ship. I'd rather use the bountiful cheap crap frigates being thrown at you all the time as throw-aways.

My only gripe with Gemini is the speed, which opens it up to being outmaneuvered by other destroyers, and you'd need a ton of OP to fix that. This is the main reason I rank Drover over Gemini.

I'm not convinced, xeno :). I still think Gemini is a viable alternative. As I said previously, if I had limited funds and both Gemini and Drover were available for purchase, I'd pick the Drover. But if I had enough for both, I'd pick both. Condor vs Gemini, though....I'd probably pick Gemini because it has better survivability and bonus utility. The only good thing about the Condor is cheap Flight Decks.
Logged

Igncom1

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1496
    • View Profile
Re: A Case for the Gemini
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2018, 02:50:43 PM »

The Gemini is the armed freighter/carrier right?

It was never supposed to be a line carrier, and in it's job of fending off pirates and luddites it does the job just fine. Good civilian sector ship. A Drover needs support cargo and fuel ships to operate where as a Gemini is largely self sustaining.

Trade for military craft when possible, but the Gemini works just fine for exploration/pirate hunting/salvaging and so forth operations.
Logged
Sunders are the best ship in the game.

Goumindong

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1896
    • View Profile
Re: A Case for the Gemini
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2018, 07:57:33 PM »

Sorry, I disagree with all of your reasonings.

DP isn't an issue early game, or midgame if you aren't fielding trash ships/loadouts. Deployment cost is more important, IMO, and as I said before, Drover is nearly twice as expensive to deploy.

Your equivalencies are erroneus. Mount sizes are not scalar. Each mount size and type have their own unique options. If your reasoning was true, a mass of OP equivalent frigates would be just as good as their capital counterpart.

I've already outlined an outfitting for Gemini med ballistics that works with its flux stats. "...and 4 med slots you can barely use." is just obtuse fudging. Burst Lasers on this scale also aren't nearly as effective as Flak.

Armor is not end-all be-all of tanking.

See my previous comments on Condors.

Harpoons/Sabots have three uses. Annilator Pods have 100. Pilums have infinite. Even if you equivocate Anni Pods to Harps/Sabs as far as damage done, Anni Pods still come out way ahead, even if you count misses.

.....AGAIN: Not saying Gemini is the best pick. Just saying it's a viable alternative.

Deployment cost == deployment points - reduction. So they’re either both relevant or they’re both not.

While there usually is no mount equivalence there IS mount equivalence for medium and small missiles... because they field the same missiles, some just shoot more. (Piliums are worthless more or less). A small salamander shoots half as fast as a medium salamander. Hence the 2 to 1 equivalence. Except when sliding sabots/harpoons because a Harpoon pod shoots 4 missiles 3 times while a launcher shoots 1 missile 3 Times...

Armor isn’t the be all end all of tanking but the Mule has 3000 effective shield, 5500 hull*, and 650 armor. While the Gemini has 3375 shield, 3500 hull, and 250 armor. Plus the Mule can be set up in a manner such that you barely care if it explodes(just give it bulkheads and recover it). Fighter LPCs are never really cheap or plentiful enough for you to not care if your Gemini’s explode.

*minimum armor for hull will also make this significantly larger against the majority of weapons until you’re fighting things that ylare significantly above weight.
Logged