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Author Topic: Aliviating / Nerfing players abilities to change ships  (Read 12026 times)

Cyan Leader

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Aliviating / Nerfing players abilities to change ships
« on: April 03, 2018, 06:12:53 AM »

As I keep trying to find new ways to play the game, I've been starting to chain ships a lot more often lately. I've always been a fan of fighting with only a couple really strong ships against big fleets, which usually involves a lot of kiting and it's very rewarding. In my last save I've been running fleet configurations with destroyers and cruisers, deploying the former first to handle frigates and the like, and the the latter to face against capitals and such. The problem is that, especially with hardened subsystems, by the time I retreat my destroyer and switch over to my cruiser, the enemy fleet (which most have deployed since I also deployed my other ships prior, I just kept them in a corner giving me some ECM) is exhausted. Most frigates CR are close to running out and when my cruiser starts engaging even their destroyers are suffering. As the fight drags while my cruiser is around half CR, even their capitals are starting to fail.

I really dislike this, it feels like I'm cheesing the game even further and it can trivialize anything in the game but station battles. I really like the ability of changing ships in the middle of a battle though, so I'd like suggest a balance change:

If the new ship the player is transferring to has: a higher CR rating than their last ship AND it has been in combat (as in the state in which your CR drains, not just deployed) for a a certain amount of time (a minute would be good place to start experimenting) less than the original ship, then the enemy ships gets their CR adjusted upwards to compensate (to the value of the new ship would be good I think). This would prevent fleets getting adjusted upwards when you, say, change from a frigate to a cruiser mid battle with both ships engaging but it would prevent the enemy fleet from being crippled by chaining ships.

I have no idea on how to integrate this in a way that would make sense world-wise, but that's the most balanced solution that I can come up with.

PS. This would not prevent, however, exhausting enemies with player ships and then asking your AI buddies to wipe out the crippled fleet.
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TaLaR

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Re: Aliviating / Nerfing players abilities to change ships
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2018, 07:05:58 AM »

Currently there is a rule that your CR ticks only against somewhat threatening opponents (combined). So a solo frigate is enough for another frigate or DE, but not a Cruiser or Capital.

How about a more general replacement system:

- 1 ship-specific CR tick is worth 1/2/3/4 universal CR ticks (determined by ship size).
- 1 universal CR tick of one side can wipe up to 3 universal CR ticks of other side. No accumulation between ticks, spreads randomly, can't double tap same target, no waste as long as there are appropriate targets (a Capital can't shield CR of allied frigates).

So you still need at least 2 frigates to make a Capital tick at all. 1 frigate can drain 3 enemy frigates at normal rate, 6 frigates at about 50% rate (over long enough time), etc.
Such system even makes winning by CR harder for a single capital, among other things.

This way there is no need to punish chain-deployment. It remains a viable, but not a no-brainer strategy.

On the downside, it may be hard to figure out what's actually happening with CR in combat. Maybe add some additional bar, showing universal CR balance around a ship (or battlefield in general?).

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Alex

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Re: Aliviating / Nerfing players abilities to change ships
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2018, 09:52:22 AM »

(A cruiser can't tick down a capital unless it's a carrier - which, really, I should probably change - that's a holdover from before the new fighter mechanics, iirc.)

That aside, though, yeah, this is a bit of a problem. I almost wonder if throwing objectives into the mix might not be a good idea. Something like, "if one side controls the middle of the map, the other side's peak time ticks down no matter what, including reserves" might work. The center would then be something you have to hold to win the CR war - you either hold it and fight, don't hold it and still fight, or lose by CR. Seems like it would have no effect on smaller battles, where everything ticks down anyway. Plus, it would provide an opportunity to clarify the mechanic, through the objective's text.

Hmm. Thoughts on this? Any exploit potential I'm missing?
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MajorTheRed

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Re: Aliviating / Nerfing players abilities to change ships
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2018, 10:06:20 AM »

That aside, though, yeah, this is a bit of a problem. I almost wonder if throwing objectives into the mix might not be a good idea. Something like, "if one side controls the middle of the map, the other side's peak time ticks down no matter what, including reserves" might work. The center would then be something you have to hold to win the CR war - you either hold it and fight, don't hold it and still fight, or lose by CR. Seems like it would have no effect on smaller battles, where everything ticks down anyway. Plus, it would provide an opportunity to clarify the mechanic, through the objective's text.

Hmm. Thoughts on this? Any exploit potential I'm missing?

Like the AI, need proper thinking about AI behavior which is sometime unable to hold a position but is instead pushed aside by ennemy fleet.
Still, could be also benefit to prevent cluster of ships randomly around the map (the objective could be defined as a default regroup waypoint). It would also prevent abusing kitting and the situation where the other side has obviously lose, but still don't want to flee (ex: a last frigate vs 3 or 4 ones).
I think it could also bring some realism : one rarely fight to the death for the sake of it, even more if it's a naval engagement. If you look WWII or Jutland, in regard to fleet engage, lose are often minimal in proportion (to a few exception). I'm not telling that I want something that boring in Starsector, but fighting for something else than killing every one could be interesting
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TaLaR

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Re: Aliviating / Nerfing players abilities to change ships
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2018, 10:26:06 AM »

That aside, though, yeah, this is a bit of a problem. I almost wonder if throwing objectives into the mix might not be a good idea. Something like, "if one side controls the middle of the map, the other side's peak time ticks down no matter what, including reserves" might work. The center would then be something you have to hold to win the CR war - you either hold it and fight, don't hold it and still fight, or lose by CR. Seems like it would have no effect on smaller battles, where everything ticks down anyway. Plus, it would provide an opportunity to clarify the mechanic, through the objective's text.

Hmm. Thoughts on this? Any exploit potential I'm missing?

What about fights against MUCH larger fleet (like 10x yours)? You start with elite units and manage to hold center - ticking down *whole* enemy reserve in process. Then swap to a few reserve ships (since they didn't lose CR) for mop up. Something that would probably not happen under current system (CR death due to endless reinforcement waves).
Especially since player can reduce combat size to fit his current fleet.

Makes fleet size disadvantage much less important, as long as you have really good first wave.
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Megas

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Re: Aliviating / Nerfing players abilities to change ships
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2018, 10:39:23 AM »

I only resort to outlasting the enemy as a last resort.  (e.g., I cannot safely attack and win against an overwhelming force any other way.)  Waiting that much is not very fun.  (That is the real reason Remnants are overpowered in player hands, they have more peak performance than most ships and can outlast them if their weird loadouts make it too hard to win conventionally.)

If reserves start to tick down (or I foresee that coming), I probably would call full retreat to end battle as soon as possible.  If some ships are too slow, say Mora on my side, I might shoot my own slow pokes (only instead of more XP exploit, simply to get them off the map now).  I would also be more hesitant to join battles as allies.

Also, that would make CR drain intolerably huge as during early 0.6.  I hated CR back then, and unlimited ballistics (plus other minor tweaks) made the CR more tolerable.  If CR ticking down in combat for all is a thing, thing CR costs would need to be lower so that player does not lose 50% for the whole fleet in one battle, but that may encourage full retreats more for perhaps other reasons like reloading missiles.

On the other hand, if I am winning a battle, I might order my allies to avoid a crippled ship so that the CR of enemies in reserve ticks down all the way down to zero.  Let that enemy ship live long enough to cripple everyone else.
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SCC

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Re: Aliviating / Nerfing players abilities to change ships
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2018, 10:44:52 AM »

Hmm. Thoughts on this? Any exploit potential I'm missing?
I thought about boring and hidden "if DP disparity between sides is bigger than 30% (bigger fleet's DP/smaller fleet's DP), then CR depletion speed is multiplied by disparity ratio".
Any exploits? Don't know, but it might potentially make early game harder.

Alex

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Re: Aliviating / Nerfing players abilities to change ships
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2018, 10:48:39 AM »

What about fights against MUCH larger fleet (like 10x yours)? You start with elite units and manage to hold center - ticking down *whole* enemy reserve in process. Then swap to a few reserve ships (since they didn't lose CR) for mop up. Something that would probably not happen under current system (CR death due to endless reinforcement waves).
Especially since player can reduce combat size to fit his current fleet.

Makes fleet size disadvantage much less important, as long as you have really good first wave.

Hmm, that's a good point.

Thinking it through: if the enemy outnumbers you that much, they have more stuff deployed, so it feels like - while your forces may be very much superior - they'd still get attacked and have to either destroy the enemy ships or be destroyed. That seems like it'd leave time for a few follow-up redeployment waves, at least. And after that, the enemy could full-retreat and re-engage, meaning the whole thing gets restarted, with lower CR for your elite first wave. A "don't reinforce and full-retreat when reserve peak time is 0" check seems /fairly/ straightforward.

Also, to clarify: I wasn't thinking that *CR* would tick down for reserves; just peak time. Not super relevant for this particular point, but thought I'd mention it.


I only resort to outlasting the enemy as a last resort.  (e.g., I cannot safely attack and win against an overwhelming force any other way.)  Waiting that much is not very fun.  (That is the real reason Remnants are overpowered in player hands, they have more peak performance than most ships and can outlast them if their weird loadouts make it too hard to win conventionally.)

Ideally, this change (which is very much only "potential") would make those cases unwinnable instead, forcing you to adjust your tactics and "what's viable" into something that's actually also fun. For example, if you're hiding in a corner with an Onslaught trying to wait stuff out, they could just pull back to the middle of the map and wait *you* out.

If reserves start to tick down (or I foresee that coming), I probably would call full retreat to end battle as soon as possible.  If some ships are too slow, say Mora on my side, I might shoot my own slow pokes (only instead of more XP exploit, simply to get them off the map now).  I would also be more hesitant to join battles as allies.

Also, that would make CR drain intolerably huge as during early 0.6.  I hated CR back then, and unlimited ballistics (plus other minor tweaks) made the CR more tolerable.  If CR ticking down in combat for all is a thing, thing CR costs would need to be lower so that player does not lose 50% for the whole fleet in one battle, but that may encourage full retreats more for perhaps other reasons like reloading missiles.

On the other hand, if I am winning a battle, I might order my allies to avoid a crippled ship so that the CR of enemies in reserve ticks down all the way down to zero.  Let that enemy ship live long enough to cripple everyone else.

Right - it would be just peak time for reserves, not CR.

(I've also got a TODO item to stop missile reloads from retreating and redeploying...)


I thought about boring and hidden "if DP disparity between sides is bigger than 30% (bigger fleet's DP/smaller fleet's DP), then CR depletion speed is multiplied by disparity ratio".
Any exploits? Don't know, but it might potentially make early game harder.

Hmm. I think that might unduly punish soloing styles - and, right, the early game. It'd basically reduce the player's peak time/CR in any situation, rather than only when they're trying to avoid a fight.
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Megas

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Re: Aliviating / Nerfing players abilities to change ships
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2018, 10:51:44 AM »

One way to "Aliviating / Nerfing players abilities to change ships" is to remove the Hardened Subsystems hullmod and the perks that increase maximum CR and peak performance from the game.  This enables high-tech ships like Aurora to solo things it otherwise could not due to having a peak performance advantage.

This is one reason I consider Fleet Logistics one of the most important skills in the game.
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Megas

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Re: Aliviating / Nerfing players abilities to change ships
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2018, 11:03:30 AM »

If peak time can tick all the way down to zero, I might call full retreat and restore peak performance.  Ideally, ships should retreat before it expires and the only reason I do not do that is that loot bug that causes the player to forfeit all loot from previous rounds if he full retreats from the current round (but returns to win the following round), all in the same encounter.

Once CR begins to decay, it ticks down rather quickly.  I am not sure a fleet burning in with no peak performance can crush a fleet quickly enough that they lose less CR than to full retreat and fight the next round.

Also, if player might think his fleet may be vulnerable to peak performance drain (and do not bother with full retreat), then Safety Override could be more attractive.  Its peak performance penalty hurts, but if the fleet already lost it, then that drawback does not apply.
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Thaago

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Re: Aliviating / Nerfing players abilities to change ships
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2018, 11:52:51 AM »

(A cruiser can't tick down a capital unless it's a carrier - which, really, I should probably change - that's a holdover from before the new fighter mechanics, iirc.)

That aside, though, yeah, this is a bit of a problem. I almost wonder if throwing objectives into the mix might not be a good idea. Something like, "if one side controls the middle of the map, the other side's peak time ticks down no matter what, including reserves" might work. The center would then be something you have to hold to win the CR war - you either hold it and fight, don't hold it and still fight, or lose by CR. Seems like it would have no effect on smaller battles, where everything ticks down anyway. Plus, it would provide an opportunity to clarify the mechanic, through the objective's text.

Hmm. Thoughts on this? Any exploit potential I'm missing?

EDIT:
Quote
Also, to clarify: I wasn't thinking that *CR* would tick down for reserves; just peak time. Not super relevant for this particular point, but thought I'd mention it.


This nullifies the CR damage to reserve aspect, but I'll leave them as examples.

Spoiler
From my observations, in any fight that matters the player is badly outnumbered, and rarely will they be able to hold a static point until they have managed to whittle the enemy down some. (Specific 'heavy' fleet builds designed to just ball up and outlast might be able to do this, but even then you usually get pushed slowly back until the tide turns and the enemy breaks). Not talking about cheesing where you hide your forces in a corner for range/speed, or chain deploying fast flagships to harass and deal CR damage without really being effective combat-wise, but just ordinary engagements.

Problems:

What about fights where we underdeploy strategically, or when are reserves are already CR damaged? And what about civilian ships?

I don't deploy frigates in large fleet actions as they are too vulnerable, but keep a few around for chases. If I'm in a tough battle where I don't hold the center that much, but manage to win in decent time with my destroyers starting to tick down, then my chase frigates will be completely wiped. At large supply cost, too! (A drained CR frigate costs more in supplies than a cruiser deployment!) Same for civilian frigates like the Dram.

I have often been in the situation when getting chain ganked by remnants that my main combat ships are starting to be in CR trouble from repeated deployment. I start to deploy less of my fleet, sometimes down to just the bare minimum of ships I think can scrape a win. If the reserve is being CR damaged, then I can't do that, which I think would be a shame: These tense battles are some of the best fights.
[close]

Problem:

What stops the player from harassing the enemy fleet to CR exhaustion with a few ships, full retreating to end that combat round, then crushing the enemy in a new round? Same effect, just a little more waiting.

Suggestions (each standalone):

Instead of (or in addition to) making the enemy readiness timer tick, the center objective stops your own. This still allows for legitimate hit and run strategies against a larger AI, such as using your own fast ships in one wave to deal with the enemy fast ships, then deploying heavier ships, but removes the CR advantage element of it. It is a slower tempo correction though, which might be bad.


Another suggestion: One AI change that would really alter game flow: have the AI retreat when they start taking CR damage. And if this leaves the forces left too small, have them retreat as well. This would make engagements have more "rounds" and be more punishing and expensive, so there would be balance consequences. However, it would stop the 'corner hiding' cheese because the player would take the full CR hit each time.

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Goumindong

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Re: Aliviating / Nerfing players abilities to change ships
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2018, 01:21:45 PM »

Taking out ways to abuse the enemy by smart understanding of combat mechanics is probably bad. There isn’t a good reason to make players feel less good about themselves while also pushing the game towards more of a fleet check than it already is.

The only significant problem is that there exists no mechanic to force ships to engage. Running is almost always a worse idea that engaging and then running after you use what few combat ships you have to clean their fast movers.

I almost feel like there should be two fights every fight. The first fight determines who gets loot. The second fight is just to blow stuff up and the second fight is composed only of ships not deployed in the first fight and you must deploy all ships. (From lowest to highest DP until combat size cap). The loser of the first fight gets to determine whether or not this is a flee fight or a normal fight
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Alex

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Re: Aliviating / Nerfing players abilities to change ships
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2018, 01:48:41 PM »

Taking out ways to abuse the enemy by smart understanding of combat mechanics is probably bad.

Well, it's good or bad depending on whether the gameplay this engenders is fun or not, right. Here, we're talking about something that occasionally creates gameplay that's very obviously not fun.


What about fights where we underdeploy strategically, or when are reserves are already CR damaged? And what about civilian ships?

...

I have often been in the situation when getting chain ganked by remnants that my main combat ships are starting to be in CR trouble from repeated deployment. I start to deploy less of my fleet, sometimes down to just the bare minimum of ships I think can scrape a win. If the reserve is being CR damaged, then I can't do that, which I think would be a shame: These tense battles are some of the best fights.

Hmm - so "no CR ticking down for reserves" mostly does take care of this, right? If you strategically under-deploy and win, you're fine. If you lose, you either still have enough peak time on reserves, or you retreat and redeploy.

I don't deploy frigates in large fleet actions as they are too vulnerable, but keep a few around for chases. If I'm in a tough battle where I don't hold the center that much, but manage to win in decent time with my destroyers starting to tick down, then my chase frigates will be completely wiped.

Do you mean chase frigates for the separate pursuit phase? (If so, then naturally we're good since peak time would be reset for that.)


What stops the player from harassing the enemy fleet to CR exhaustion with a few ships, full retreating to end that combat round, then crushing the enemy in a new round? Same effect, just a little more waiting.

I think a combination of a few things: if they only deploy a few ships, the AI will not over-deploy very much, and the few/faster ships that might be used to harass to CR exhaustion also have lower peak times, so not being able to effectively chain-deploy them (as a result of reserve peak time ticking down) will limit how much you can actually wear the enemy down this way. E.G. if you use a single Tempest or Medusa to wear down maybe 4-5 times their weight in ships, but at the cost of extra CR loss by that ship (or other ships), then you might as well deploy 2-3 of them and just win outright.

The scenario in the OP is a bit unique in that deploying and then hiding extra ships causes the enemy to over-deploy, making them much more vulnerable to getting CR-exhausted efficiently.

Adding a "control point" (or several) seems like overkill to solve /just/ that, but I like its potential to 1) replace other objectives entirely, with something that matters, and 2) naturally cause fights to drift to the center of the map, helping to reduce the amount of map border cheese and just awkwardness from fighting near one.


Instead of (or in addition to) making the enemy readiness timer tick, the center objective stops your own. This still allows for legitimate hit and run strategies against a larger AI, such as using your own fast ships in one wave to deal with the enemy fast ships, then deploying heavier ships, but removes the CR advantage element of it. It is a slower tempo correction though, which might be bad.

Can't do it because of phase ships and SO builds.

Another suggestion: One AI change that would really alter game flow: have the AI retreat when they start taking CR damage. And if this leaves the forces left too small, have them retreat as well. This would make engagements have more "rounds" and be more punishing and expensive, so there would be balance consequences. However, it would stop the 'corner hiding' cheese because the player would take the full CR hit each time.

It might work, but I think the main issue with that is it can lead to boring fights. If enemy phase ships retreat when their peak time runs out, for example - which is smart! - then just ugh. You certainly can't catch them, and this would mean waiting out their peak timer as many times as they decide to re-engage.
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Aliviating / Nerfing players abilities to change ships
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2018, 04:54:44 PM »

I feel like this is an over kill fix for an issue that already has a fix. Plus it feels very arbitrary and gamely
Also, what happens if I push the enemy back to their side of the map? I play very aggressively and usually end up near their spawn about 2/3rds through the fight. If I'm going to be punished just because I'm not watching some arbitrary point(s) on the map
Another thing: CP are going to have to regen faster or the order to capture and control these points will need to be free. This will need to be done along with keeping the AI closer to the points and making the default, no order AI try to cap these points without orders
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Megas

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Re: Aliviating / Nerfing players abilities to change ships
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2018, 05:00:15 PM »

Unless I play Op Center commander build, I only have enough CP to do what I really want if I totally ignore objectives (another good reason to get both Coordinated Maneuvers and Electronic Warfare 1 each).  Objectives are CP sinks, and you only break even if you are have at least a slight power advantage over the enemy to begin with to capture objectives.
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