Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Author Topic: [WIP] Hullmod Minimod idea, help and feedback needed  (Read 2903 times)

gun&drink

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 27
    • View Profile
[WIP] Hullmod Minimod idea, help and feedback needed
« on: April 03, 2018, 02:52:26 AM »

I probably have a similar story that other people that have come to this section of the forum in the past: I love this game, had a few ideas, and now I want to turn them into an actual, funcional thing within the game. And after playing this game for a while I have come to realize that, while I would love to make a ship or a weapon, there's something more subtle that usually completely changes the number of possibilities that the already insane amount of possible builds that modded Starsector already gives you: hullmods. I want to make a hullmod (possibly more if things go right) and I have some questions

but first let me explain what I have in mind

Name:State-of-the-art Maintenance Protocol

Effects:
-Peak performance multiplied by 2
-flux dissipation and flux capacity increased by 15%
-active system cooldown decreased by 25%
-active system charges increased by 50% (rounding would be upwards so that things like missile autoforge are affected by at least +1)
-maintenance cost/month multiplied by 3
-non-skeleton crew space subtracted, skeleton crew multiplied by 2
-cargo and fuel space removed

OP cost: probably the same as safety overwrites , maybe a little less

the idea is making it possible to give the player the possibility of making certain ace ships that are used often more effective, while giving a big enough drawback to the entire fleet so that it has to be used sparingly (the negative changes forces whatever ship is used on to depend on the rest on the fleet for maintenance, so it has to stop at some point).

so the questions are
-is any of the changes I just said difficult to implement on a hullmod? I have been checking some mod files, and both the code of the hullmods itself and the implementation outside the jar directory seem fairly easy to understand. I have programming background in java and so far I didn't see anything weird as long as hullmods are concerned
-opinions on the hullmod itself?

that is all, thank you for your time
Logged

Johnny Cocas

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 170
  • Murder Wedges!!
    • View Profile
Re: [WIP] Hullmod Minimod idea, help and feedback needed
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2018, 10:00:51 AM »

First off, welcome to modding!

Now onto the hullmod itself, the idea is good, although for the bonuses it gives I'd probably rethink its name, the hullmod itself seems to be giving a buff to ship systems and flux dissipation, so if it was me making this hullmod I'd probably call it "Electronics Augmentation Device" or something like that.

Looking at it, balance wise, it is powerful, but I also see that in the long run it can become costy, so I'm not sure... I'd probably use it on my flagship to further enhance it in combat but not much else.

Give it a try, all stats you posted there can be changed iirc.

EDIT: You should also join Starsector's Discord channel, you can get a lot of help and feedback in there
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 10:56:50 AM by joaonunes »
Logged

xenoargh

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 4882
  • naively breaking things!
    • View Profile
Re: [WIP] Hullmod Minimod idea, help and feedback needed
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2018, 11:25:18 AM »

I think all of that can be implemented, and it sounds like a great thing for stuff like the Hyperion and a few other High Tech toys, which desperately needs better CR and other bonuses to be competitive right now, as well as providing meaningful efficiency bonuses for certain player flagships, like the Aurora.
Logged
Please check out my SS projects :)
Xeno's Mod Pack

AxleMC131

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1709
  • Amateur World-Builder
    • View Profile
Re: [WIP] Hullmod Minimod idea, help and feedback needed
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2018, 11:48:12 PM »

@gundrik That's a very interesting idea for a hullmod, though I can see it definitely being abusable. Most ships are already more powerful in the player's hands than the AI's (with some exceptions), and giving such a blatant buff to such ships at the expense of logistical stats isn't the best way to balance the pros and cons, because at the sort of stage a player would use this mod to buff their flagship, logistics (supplies and such) are rarely an issue.

I wouldn't recommend Peak Performance Time as a stat to buff here either, and certainly not by such a huge amount. Most capitals for instance already have 10-12 minutes of PPT. If you want to solo in a 20+ minute battle before you start to suffer CR losses, then go for it, but PPT and CR exist to prevent such scenarios, and encourage the player to retreat/deploy ships over time during long battles. If you're going to buff PPT or CR in any way, then I'd reduce the rate at which CR decays once PPT runs out (such as what the Hardened Subsystems hullmod already does).

As for stuff that affects a ship system, I don't believe you can achieve such a thing without heavy scripting (if at all) and you might need to do an awful lot of edge-case scripting. System cooldown time and number of charges (for those that have them) aren't "mutableStats", which means you can't simply change a ship's value in a hullmod. Whether they can be changed at all I do not know, but if they can it's a pretty safe bet it will be far more trouble than it's worth. On the flipside, all the other stat changes are easily edited in a hullmod file.

I'm not rightly sure how you can make such a hullmod interesting I'm afraid, because at the moment while potent, it's also kinda boring sorry to say. And at the same time, the penalties should also be more interesting, and have bigger impact on a late-game fleet where the player would be most likely to use it (and where it would be at its most powerful). There are a number of nerfs you could give the ship - more expensive weapons so you have to specialize the loadout; chances of engine and weapon malfunctions; overall improved flux stats but worse active venting rate - and some are more interesting than others. But balancing such a mod would be quite a challenge. I'd have to give it more thought.

TLDR: The concept sounds fun, but the current execution is a bit dull and potentially extremely abusable. Needs some work, but definitely deserves the time.  ;)



... it sounds like a great thing for stuff like the Hyperion and a few other High Tech toys, which desperately needs better CR and other bonuses to be competitive right now, as well as providing meaningful efficiency bonuses for certain player flagships, like the Aurora.

@xenoargh, forgive me if this is going to devolve into another balance discussion (and to the OP forgive me for not immediately addressing the point of the thread), but when you make statements like this as you frequently do... If possible, can you disclose on whether your opinions are based on vanilla or your balance pack? Because:

- The Hyperion is one of (if not the) most competitive ship in the stock game. Have you played the "Sinking the Bismar" mission?

- The Aurora is arguably the most powerful and verging-on-broken cruiser, especially under player control. It's price and logistical profile are extremely appropriate. Why would you ever want to make it cheaper?

If you're speaking from the standpoint of content within your mods, then you need to disclaim that as other forum users may not know that. And if you're speaking from the standpoint of the unmodified game, then I guess we just disagree very strongly on game balance... Out of curiosity, how much time have you put into the stock game to learn its ins and outs?
Logged

gun&drink

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 27
    • View Profile
Re: [WIP] Hullmod Minimod idea, help and feedback needed
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2018, 11:19:11 AM »

First off, welcome to modding!

Now onto the hullmod itself, the idea is good, although for the bonuses it gives I'd probably rethink its name, the hullmod itself seems to be giving a buff to ship systems and flux dissipation, so if it was me making this hullmod I'd probably call it "Electronics Augmentation Device" or something like that.

Looking at it, balance wise, it is powerful, but I also see that in the long run it can become costy, so I'm not sure... I'd probably use it on my flagship to further enhance it in combat but not much else.

Give it a try, all stats you posted there can be changed iirc.

EDIT: You should also join Starsector's Discord channel, you can get a lot of help and feedback in there
thanks for the warm welcome

-the name is something I came on the fly, so it really could use some work
-It's costly, yes, but I think that for someone that does heavy lifting with their flagship is totally worth it. I hope I can implement some form of test quick to see how far does it go
-if I get really active I may join the discord, but right now it's going to be something really in the sidelines until at least summer.
I think all of that can be implemented, and it sounds like a great thing for stuff like the Hyperion and a few other High Tech toys, which desperately needs better CR and other bonuses to be competitive right now, as well as providing meaningful efficiency bonuses for certain player flagships, like the Aurora.

the CR wasn't the main focus, it was more like something that made sense for overall improvements of the ship. but I'm glad you can see an use for it right off the bat

 
@gundrik That's a very interesting idea for a hullmod, though I can see it definitely being abusable. Most ships are already more powerful in the player's hands than the AI's (with some exceptions), and giving such a blatant buff to such ships at the expense of logistical stats isn't the best way to balance the pros and cons, because at the sort of stage a player would use this mod to buff their flagship, logistics (supplies and such) are rarely an issue.

I wouldn't recommend Peak Performance Time as a stat to buff here either, and certainly not by such a huge amount. Most capitals for instance already have 10-12 minutes of PPT. If you want to solo in a 20+ minute battle before you start to suffer CR losses, then go for it, but PPT and CR exist to prevent such scenarios, and encourage the player to retreat/deploy ships over time during long battles. If you're going to buff PPT or CR in any way, then I'd reduce the rate at which CR decays once PPT runs out (such as what the Hardened Subsystems hullmod already does).

one of the reasons I went for logistical punishment for this was in part because if I even end up implementing this in a way that enemy fleets can use it (still a long shot) it's because their lack of logistics would make it busable even for the AI, but yeah I do agree that for a lategame player this is still pretty abusable. the other reason I made the punishment that way is because it makes sense in context (use more supplies-> better maintenance | empty cargo, non skelly crew and fuel -> more space for other stuff | high maintenance ship -> needs alot of crew, needs to come in support ships because why have passengers in a finely tunned killing machine). the the CR was just part of this line of thought, but it probably is a little too much right now. on the other hand this isn't necessarily a hull mod that benefits mostly capitals (I actually came up with the idea while wondering if a Neutrino Falken only run was possible with the mods I had at the moment) but I get what you are saying. I will probably nerf that part or make it incompatible with hardened subsystems

the last reason that I went for its because I have seen several times the opposite hull mod (in mods) to this: halving supplies and crew for worse performance. I just found it so weird that no one had gone for the opposite approach to that


 
As for stuff that affects a ship system, I don't believe you can achieve such a thing without heavy scripting (if at all) and you might need to do an awful lot of edge-case scripting. System cooldown time and number of charges (for those that have them) aren't "mutableStats", which means you can't simply change a ship's value in a hullmod. Whether they can be changed at all I do not know, but if they can it's a pretty safe bet it will be far more trouble than it's worth. On the flipside, all the other stat changes are easily edited in a hullmod file.
this is what I feared the most after fooling around a .java from a hullmod: I couldn't find any references to the active system. If this is the case then I may have to postpone this hullmod for a while until I get the hang of it, as making active systems was honestly what I was most excited about with this mod. in any case I have some other ideas about hullmods that should be fairly easy, as they only touch mutable stats

 
I'm not rightly sure how you can make such a hullmod interesting I'm afraid, because at the moment while potent, it's also kinda boring sorry to say. And at the same time, the penalties should also be more interesting, and have bigger impact on a late-game fleet where the player would be most likely to use it (and where it would be at its most powerful). There are a number of nerfs you could give the ship - more expensive weapons so you have to specialize the loadout; chances of engine and weapon malfunctions; overall improved flux stats but worse active venting rate - and some are more interesting than others. But balancing such a mod would be quite a challenge. I'd have to give it more thought.

TLDR: The concept sounds fun, but the current execution is a bit dull and potentially extremely abusable. Needs some work, but definitely deserves the time.  ;)

Like the more expensive weapons idea and overall improved flux stats but worse active venting rate idea, they could be really interesting applications. I was also thinking about making point-defense worse, but this sounds like something hard to implement (make auto aim worse if possible? make turn rate slow down?). I was also thinking about removing some of the bonuses as it seems a little aimless right now as a hullmod,

 on the other hand I have always found malfunctions to be a huge deal-breaker and never worth it,  on top of that it doesn't really make any sense taking into account what the hull mod tries to accomplish

so to wrap the fact that I'm unable to implement active system modifications and to make it more balanced I may make a test with all the pros and conts excluding AS modifications.

thank you all for your time, will update when I get some progress or I need more advice
« Last Edit: April 06, 2018, 11:28:25 AM by gundrik »
Logged

Blothorn

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 112
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: [WIP] Hullmod Minimod idea, help and feedback needed
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2018, 11:29:06 AM »

Do note that OP cost changes are not correctly applied when hullmods are added in the refit screen, so they are only supported for built-in hullmods.
Logged

xenoargh

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 4882
  • naively breaking things!
    • View Profile
Re: [WIP] Hullmod Minimod idea, help and feedback needed
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2018, 12:00:18 PM »

Right, can’t do OP changes.

Timing on Systems can be manipulated, IIRC; I’m not home atm but I’ll explain that later.

@Axlemc131:  Nah, I was referring to Vanilla.  The Hyperion can barely finish that scenario these days before CR starts counting down, unless you connect with two Reapers, which is a one-time luck kill.  It’s nothing like as cool as it used to be, when you could solo fleets with it, using Heavy Blasters.

The version in Rebal is almost as scary as it used to be, but other things keep it from being a fleet-killer :)
Logged
Please check out my SS projects :)
Xeno's Mod Pack

Blothorn

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 112
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: [WIP] Hullmod Minimod idea, help and feedback needed
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2018, 12:53:50 PM »

@Axlemc131:  Nah, I was referring to Vanilla.  The Hyperion can barely finish that scenario these days before CR starts counting down, unless you connect with two Reapers, which is a one-time luck kill.  It’s nothing like as cool as it used to be, when you could solo fleets with it, using Heavy Blasters.

To be fair to the Hyperion, I think that taking a 15-DP frigate more than justifies itself by taking down one battleship--even in player hands, it does not have to be able to solo a fleet to justify its cost.
Logged

AxleMC131

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1709
  • Amateur World-Builder
    • View Profile
Re: [WIP] Hullmod Minimod idea, help and feedback needed
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2018, 02:09:23 PM »

Do note that OP cost changes are not correctly applied when hullmods are added in the refit screen, so they are only supported for built-in hullmods.

Ah, darn, I'd forgotten that. :-[

@Axlemc131:  Nah, I was referring to Vanilla.  The Hyperion can barely finish that scenario these days before CR starts counting down, unless you connect with two Reapers, which is a one-time luck kill.  It’s nothing like as cool as it used to be, when you could solo fleets with it, using Heavy Blasters.

Well, as long as you remember that the current game is specifically focused around not soloing fleets. A huge amount of work went in to 0.8 to encourage the player to play with an actual fleet at their side, and soloing stuff was made a fair bit harder - a reasonable change if you ask me.

Also the Hyperion has limited PPT because if it didn't it would be utterly stupid. If it was able to reliably defeat the Onslaught before it started losing CR, then I think it could be considered blatantly overpowered: Remember that the Hyperion is a frigate, and the Onslaught is a capital. Right now the Hyperion is just "very powerful", and its logistical and CR profiles are very much appropriate for its combat potential. There are few things harder to chase, and few frigates with more powerful weapons.

To be fair to the Hyperion, I think that taking a 15-DP frigate more than justifies itself by taking down one battleship--even in player hands, it does not have to be able to solo a fleet to justify its cost.

Absolutely agreed. Fleet combat has become so much more important (and fun!) in 0.8, and having a Hyperion to fulfill a "chaser" role or something is far more appealing - and sensible - than fighting everything with just the one ship. If you want to run around in a solo supership, I can only point you to the Starsector Arcade added by the Ship/Weapon Pack mod.
Logged

JDCollie

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 256
    • View Profile
    • My Youtube Channel
Re: [WIP] Hullmod Minimod idea, help and feedback needed
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2018, 07:48:45 PM »

I think all of that can be implemented, and it sounds like a great thing for stuff like the Hyperion and a few other High Tech toys, which desperately needs better CR and other bonuses to be competitive right now, as well as providing meaningful efficiency bonuses for certain player flagships, like the Aurora.
Competitive against what? Very few ships are capable of such disproportionate effect on the battlefield relative to their deployment cost. The only thing keeping it from being blatantly overpowered is that it can't overstay its welcome very long.
Logged

gun&drink

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 27
    • View Profile
Re: [WIP] Hullmod Minimod idea, help and feedback needed
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2018, 03:31:28 AM »

Do note that OP cost changes are not correctly applied when hullmods are added in the refit screen, so they are only supported for built-in hullmods.
of course, that makes sense. between this and the active system modification it's going to be messy, but I have to study how to implement it. I wonder if you can make a dynamic creation of new ship variants, so that once the hullmod is installed the ship becomes a new ship with new stats and with a preinstalled hullmod. I know that sounds like an absolute mess to implement, but at the same time it would certainly answer the limitations I have right now.
in any case I need to do some serious investment in time to understand how to pull any of this off
Logged

Blothorn

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 112
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: [WIP] Hullmod Minimod idea, help and feedback needed
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2018, 11:37:33 AM »

Do note that OP cost changes are not correctly applied when hullmods are added in the refit screen, so they are only supported for built-in hullmods.
of course, that makes sense. between this and the active system modification it's going to be messy, but I have to study how to implement it. I wonder if you can make a dynamic creation of new ship variants, so that once the hullmod is installed the ship becomes a new ship with new stats and with a preinstalled hullmod. I know that sounds like an absolute mess to implement, but at the same time it would certainly answer the limitations I have right now.
in any case I need to do some serious investment in time to understand how to pull any of this off


I am fairly certain that is impossible in general (and particularly in missions)--in campaign you might be able to run a script to catch and replace ships with the hullmod installed, but even if possible I think that is reaching levels of player-unfriendliness sufficient to justify reaching for some other balance lever.
Logged