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Author Topic: Ship Tier List  (Read 190541 times)

Megas

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #210 on: May 02, 2018, 06:55:39 PM »

I finally got the chance to try the decloak invulnerability frame exploit on phase ships, which I did not know about until it was linked and explained a few pages back, and that is some stinking cheese that makes the smaller phase playerships (more) overpowered.  AM Blaster Afflictor does not need Quantum Disruptor against anything short of a Paragon, although it helps make getaways more painless.  Shade is almost as overpowered as Afflictor with that exploit.  (I probably should try the pirate phase ships; they only need two universals for AM blasters to abuse decloak invulnerability frames this way.)  Even Harbinger is not too bad with triple Mining Blasters thanks to that exploit.

This is much like invulnerable or high-priority moves in fighting games, like point-blank Shoryuken from Ryu or Ken in early Street Fighter II, or Shun Goku Satsu (a.k.a. Raging Demon) from Akuma in later games in the franchise.
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Eji1700

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #211 on: May 02, 2018, 07:40:12 PM »

And that's why I will not be finishing my tier list.

You should.  Tier lists are always argued (and I think the metrics you were using were more than fine).  Ignore the detractors and finish it out if you want.  If RL is a problem ,well things happen, but it's a net gain for the community and the people who want to discuss it if you finish.

Personally ignoring actual in game scenarios for hypotheticals seems like a poor metric.  The number of times i've need to solo a paragon in a frigate is literally 0.  The number of times i've had 4+ tempests (which is about how many you get for one hyperion if I recall right), tear things apart is many.  Sure the hyperion can alpha things out until it runs out of CR or you screw up, but I don't think that's a linear scale.  After some point it hits the "yes its good in player hands" line and sorta falls off because many ships are, and in much more common scenarios than 1v1 vs a paragon.

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Dark.Revenant

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #212 on: May 02, 2018, 10:01:18 PM »

The reason is that I'm out of touch.  I barely even play the game anymore.  I'm quoting out-of-date behaviors on a ship I haven't used in my fleet in more than a year IRL.

The whole list is the rantings of an armchair general.
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SCC

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #213 on: May 03, 2018, 12:56:29 AM »

The reason is that I'm out of touch.  I barely even play the game anymore.
So do I, every update pulls me back in for quite a few hours. It's not like the game changed while you weren't playing, it's not an MMO.
At least ship icons you did were nice.

Tartiflette

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #214 on: May 03, 2018, 05:45:01 AM »

I don't understand how this can be an argument. The Hyperion is the best player frigate and priced accordingly and a passable AI ship. The Tempest is among the best player frigates, the best AI frigate by a large margin and way underpriced compared to its performances. Given that the tiers are set for the AI first then as player piloted ships, having the Hyperion at B++ and the Tempest S seems perfectly logical.

Reasonable and respectful, constructive criticism following the guidelines you yourself made?
Gratuitous jab that doesn't hold water given that the "constructive" criticism is made relative to very skewed and specific solo playstyle requirements. The Tempest isn't worth a S for Megas, but he himself admits not playing the game like most people do, or was intended to.
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Megas

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #215 on: May 03, 2018, 06:42:04 AM »

Hyperion is easy to use, but it costs more than every destroyer save Harbinger, and it does not have much time to kill very much.  A problem with AI Hyperion is it is too cautious.  You are paying roughly the equivalent of a Falcon to use it.  If AI cannot do enough with Hyperion, then giving it a Falcon or a bigger D-mod ridden cruiser instead to tank and beat down the enemy with heavier firepower... or better yet, D-mod ridden Heron or Mora to saturate the area with more fighters (provided your flagship is a frontline unit to make use of automatic fighter escort from AI wingmen) would probably be more useful.

Until I experienced invulnerable just-frame phase ships, I probably would have agreed Hyperion being the best playership frigate.  Now, I am not so sure.  AM Blaster Afflictor abusing invulnerability frames to completely avoid damage from explosions of ships it kills is pretty sick.  It can use Quantum Disruptor to prevent the enemy from counter-attacking too much while phase cloak recovers.  Phase frigates are cheaper to use than Hyperion.

I used to solo everything, but in the 0.8 era, I lean more toward deploy all clunkers and lots of carriers (and every big ship has Converted Hangar) to partially counter AI constantly kiting a bit like Timid officers until everyone's CR drains to zero.

Maybe the only thing possibly unusual I do today is auto-resolve nearly every pursuit.  It is effective enough, and not only do I not need to risk good ships, but I can use slow and/or bad ships (like minimally armed civilians or recovered trophy ships) and they mop up about as well.  For example, deploy my tankers or cheap clunkers to auto-resolve an enemy fleet full of frigates and other fast ships my ships cannot catch, and more than half of them are dead after auto-resolve, and their loot is mine.

As an AI ship, Tempest is not an S, merely A or A+.  It gets slaughtered sooner or later like other frigates, and (as a conventional warship) it cannot punch too much above its weight despite outperforming most other frigates.  Tempest is great in small fleet action.  In large fleet action, it eventually makes a mistake and gets popped by a capital or equivalent about as easily as a Wolf.  What makes Tempest really good is it can solo things a bit more easily than other conventional frigates because its drone can distract things, effectively making it like two ships in one for purposes of distracting AI ships.

I solo much in the simulator, but I believe that a ship that can solo things is better than a ship that requires assistance in fleet action.  After all, is it not too uncommon for a pair of ships to get separated far enough from both fleets and get locked into a duel.

P.S.  Soloing enemies is a great way to conserve resources, but such opportunities do not occur very often in 0.8.  Generally, that happens when you fight a smaller force that refuses to flee (for easy auto-resolve pickings), such as Remnants in the first 0.8 release.  Also, sending a lone Hyperion or phase playership to assassinate a killer enemy capital (because you do not have a capital yourself to match it) before it can arrive and slaughter half of your fleet or more is useful.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2018, 07:01:05 AM by Megas »
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Thaago

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #216 on: May 03, 2018, 08:06:55 AM »



Quote
Reasonable and respectful, constructive criticism following the guidelines you yourself made?
Gratuitous jab that doesn't hold water given that the "constructive" criticism is made relative to very skewed and specific solo playstyle requirements. The Tempest isn't worth a S for Megas, but he himself admits not playing the game like most people do, or was intended to.

Well... thats a bit revisionist. Megas wasn't the first person to say that the Tempest isn't S, he just agreed with it and gave his own personal reasons.

I play pretty "normal", though I tend to stop once I have a few capitals because more isn't very interesting yet (fingers crossed for level 3 stations!), and I play on ironman so sometimes suffer nasty losses and need to deal with that. I don't usually use junk ships and industry because I don't find it very fun, though I've done two runs with it. Sometimes I'll do a carrier heavy fleet, other times not. I start with either the usual tutorial start, though sometimes I'll do single frigate for nostalgia. Tempest is not S class for me - its A.

Rubric
S: Powerful to the point that it breaks the game.  Extremely OP; clearly better than everything else.
A: Unambiguously powerful, enough that it can be considered best-in-class.  Typically the best option for a given role.

Is it powerful to the point it breaks the game? No. If in the early game there's a Tempest in the enemy fleet then I just either set a pair of Talons or a mixed interceptor wing after it, or 2 fastish frigates. It can pick off stragglers so I need to be careful fighting it and not let my frigates fly off alone, but then so could a Medusa to frigates or Aurora to destroyers. If in my fleet a Tempest is a nice powerful ship, but it does not perform any miracles. Phase ships are S class - they perform miracles, even under AI control.

Is it clearly better than everything else? No. Both phase frigates are better at capturing points, better at surviving, better against cruiser and capital threats, better at instantly ganking an enemy when given the 'eliminate command', and better against fighters! The Omen is a better escort and better against fighters. Monitors are tougher and a better escort. Scarabs are (or would be if they weren't impossibly rare) comparable. Lashers are better fodder (kinda stupid, but kinda not - if I need to distract an overwhelming enemy to protect another ship (say in an escape scenario or to save a cruiser from a capital), I would much rather use a disposable Lasher than a rare Tempest).

Is it unambiguously powerful, enough that it can be considered best-in-class? Yes, if we consider the "class" to be a normal gunship frigate. Is it typically the best option for a given role? Yes, if what you want is a normal gunship. But as discussed above it is not the best for all roles.


Going by the rubric the Tempest is a pretty textbook 'A'. Best in class, not game breaking.

Comparing it to the other ranked ships - the only others that were given an A rank are the Onslaught (A- due to vulnerability to flanking), Paragon (A+), and Aurora (A+). Can the Tempest do to frigates what those ships can do to their own classes? For normal situations/builds, yes it can. Does the Tempest deserve a '+' denoting that in situations it can perform at the S level? ... Maybe, but I don't think so. Think about what an elite weapon Paragon or a sabot Aurora with proper fire groups can pull off. The Tempest cannot match that.
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Eji1700

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #217 on: May 04, 2018, 06:23:32 PM »



Quote
Reasonable and respectful, constructive criticism following the guidelines you yourself made?
Gratuitous jab that doesn't hold water given that the "constructive" criticism is made relative to very skewed and specific solo playstyle requirements. The Tempest isn't worth a S for Megas, but he himself admits not playing the game like most people do, or was intended to.

Well... thats a bit revisionist. Megas wasn't the first person to say that the Tempest isn't S, he just agreed with it and gave his own personal reasons.

I play pretty "normal", though I tend to stop once I have a few capitals because more isn't very interesting yet (fingers crossed for level 3 stations!), and I play on ironman so sometimes suffer nasty losses and need to deal with that. I don't usually use junk ships and industry because I don't find it very fun, though I've done two runs with it. Sometimes I'll do a carrier heavy fleet, other times not. I start with either the usual tutorial start, though sometimes I'll do single frigate for nostalgia. Tempest is not S class for me - its A.

Rubric
S: Powerful to the point that it breaks the game.  Extremely OP; clearly better than everything else.
A: Unambiguously powerful, enough that it can be considered best-in-class.  Typically the best option for a given role.

Is it powerful to the point it breaks the game? No. If in the early game there's a Tempest in the enemy fleet then I just either set a pair of Talons or a mixed interceptor wing after it, or 2 fastish frigates. It can pick off stragglers so I need to be careful fighting it and not let my frigates fly off alone, but then so could a Medusa to frigates or Aurora to destroyers. If in my fleet a Tempest is a nice powerful ship, but it does not perform any miracles. Phase ships are S class - they perform miracles, even under AI control.

Is it clearly better than everything else? No. Both phase frigates are better at capturing points, better at surviving, better against cruiser and capital threats, better at instantly ganking an enemy when given the 'eliminate command', and better against fighters! The Omen is a better escort and better against fighters. Monitors are tougher and a better escort. Scarabs are (or would be if they weren't impossibly rare) comparable. Lashers are better fodder (kinda stupid, but kinda not - if I need to distract an overwhelming enemy to protect another ship (say in an escape scenario or to save a cruiser from a capital), I would much rather use a disposable Lasher than a rare Tempest).

Is it unambiguously powerful, enough that it can be considered best-in-class? Yes, if we consider the "class" to be a normal gunship frigate. Is it typically the best option for a given role? Yes, if what you want is a normal gunship. But as discussed above it is not the best for all roles.

Going by the rubric the Tempest is a pretty textbook 'A'. Best in class, not game breaking.

Comparing it to the other ranked ships - the only others that were given an A rank are the Onslaught (A- due to vulnerability to flanking), Paragon (A+), and Aurora (A+). Can the Tempest do to frigates what those ships can do to their own classes? For normal situations/builds, yes it can. Does the Tempest deserve a '+' denoting that in situations it can perform at the S level? ... Maybe, but I don't think so. Think about what an elite weapon Paragon or a sabot Aurora with proper fire groups can pull off. The Tempest cannot match that.

I gave the tempest an A+/S rating, so clarification on my thoughts on this:

"Is it powerful to the point it breaks the game?-"
Arguably.  Again my issue is that you should ALWAYS get a tempest, it's easy to get a tempest, and they only get better as you get more because they don't just have to be player piloted, and they're easy to replace.   Not the easiest, but still simple compared to the gain to the point that it feels like if I don't stop myself from using the tempest I will only use the tempest. (my personal nerf would likely just be an OP increase and a rarity bump though). 

They're not much of a threat to the player because the game doesn't throw packs at you, but I think they'd be a huge problem if you created a common early game fleet of say 8 of them as a fast picket running multiple variants.

"Phase ships are S class - they perform miracles, even under AI control.-"
I have never witnessed this.  Could you suggest a build?  I've literally stopped giving the AI phase ships due to the risk/cost in most scenarios. Often at best they're a distraction until they have to retreat, and at worst they screw up and get destroyed by a missile barrage. 

I can believe they do miracles in player hands, but I have a hard time believing they perform meaningful ones.  I can generally kill a whole bunch of ships of any size in an actual battle with a tempest, and I can generally do the same with a phase ship.  I sometimes find the tempest easier to succeed with simply because it's easier to execute and stays in the fight longer (and again, just sending an ion pulse drone after the proper targets is easy and very powerful). 

Again I see no point in who can 1v1 a paragon or some other kind of comparison better because it's not a realistic or common situation.   Wiping out several capital ships and cruisers in quick succession in a real fight is, and it's something they both do more than well enough to the point that figuring out who's the best (almost certainly phase ships), no longer matters because it doesn't actually affect play anymore.

"Both phase frigates are better at capturing points, better at surviving, better against cruiser and capital threats, better at instantly ganking an enemy when given the 'eliminate command', and better against fighters!"-
So obviously I don't see most of this given I don't see the AI doing anything great with them.  I'll gladly test though. 

The only two of these I'd comment on are 1. Capturing points, at which point i feel certain phase ships are better, but again not in any meaningful way from what i've seen. They both get to the point fast, both hold well, both better than anything else in its size.  One is easier to find and sure as hell seems less suicidal in AI hands.  2. Fighters- Fighters seem to slaughter my AI phase ships.  They hover around them, waste their flux, and then get the murdered.

I will also point out that one of the reasons i put it on the line with an S tier is because it's very simple to mass tempests.  If you mass paragons you'll break the game, but it's not realistic and by the time you've done that you should expect to break things.  Massing phase ships is also hard.  Massing tempests feels much much easier.



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SafariJohn

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #218 on: May 04, 2018, 06:31:52 PM »

1 player-piloted Shade can assassinate a capital ship + a couple cruisers at the beginning of a fight and turn a sure loss into an easy win.
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Megas

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #219 on: May 04, 2018, 07:23:13 PM »

How is Tempest easy to get, let alone amass for a swarm?  The best I have done is recover about seven or so in a game, all through ship recovery (and left in damaged clunker state because restoration is too expensive).  That is not very many, although acquiring them was much easier than before 0.8, when I probably got up to about four or six or so through shopping or boarding.

Thaago brings up ratings other ships got.  If Tempest is an S, then several other ships have been underrated.

In my case, the only frigates I bring for endgame is Hyperion, one or two Tempests, and an Afflictor, and they are only used to mop up small suicidal enemy encounters.  The rest of my war fleet are cruisers and up, except for about four or so Drovers.
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Sutopia

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #220 on: May 04, 2018, 07:38:04 PM »

How is Tempest easy to get, let alone amass for a swarm?
Even you're somehow able to make a "swarm" of tempest, they're no match for carrier making fighter deathball  :-\
They get smacked by capitals and several good cruisers easily which implies they cannot really deal with anything BIG.
I'd rather swarm drovers, seriously. ;)
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TaLaR

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #221 on: May 04, 2018, 10:37:29 PM »

I can believe they do miracles in player hands, but I have a hard time believing they perform meaningful ones.  I can generally kill a whole bunch of ships of any size in an actual battle with a tempest, and I can generally do the same with a phase ship.  I sometimes find the tempest easier to succeed with simply because it's easier to execute and stays in the fight longer (and again, just sending an ion pulse drone after the proper targets is easy and very powerful). 

Again I see no point in who can 1v1 a paragon or some other kind of comparison better because it's not a realistic or common situation.   Wiping out several capital ships and cruisers in quick succession in a real fight is, and it's something they both do more than well enough to the point that figuring out who's the best (almost certainly phase ships), no longer matters because it doesn't actually affect play anymore.

Afflictor can kill any ship in few seconds given appropriate variant and character skills. Short of compact Tempest swarm (it's really Terminators that are the problem) or good TL cross-coverage your post phase out 2 seconds are not a dangerous vulnerability.
For Paragon that means 4 Reapers and damage focused skills, so you'll need to rotate Afflictor soon, but for frigates or DEs it's as simple as firing AM blasters point-blank (you can kill a Paragon with AM variant (+1-2 Reapers) too, just won't be fast enough to boast about).

Phase frigates spent CR quickly, but actual amount of CR spent per kill is way less then what Tempest would use up on same tier opponents, as long as target is above trivial difficulty. So they can kill more alright. Also 30 CR seconds of Tempest mean literally that, for Afflictor spending time mostly in phase that's closer to 15 world seconds - which means in world time killing speed of Afflictor is way higher.

I don't see how Tempest can wipe several Capitals in quick succession. It can give finishing blow to several ships already on brink of destruction by your allies, but that's a very different thing. Killing Onslaught on your own simply takes a lot of time with any possible Tempest variant to go through armor/hull. And it can't even approach a Paragon for attack unless it's completely distracted by allied ships, let alone kill it.
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Sutopia

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #222 on: May 05, 2018, 05:12:13 AM »


I gave the tempest an A+/S rating, so clarification on my thoughts on this:

"Is it powerful to the point it breaks the game?-"
Arguably.  Again my issue is that you should ALWAYS get a tempest, it's easy to get a tempest, and they only get better as you get more because they don't just have to be player piloted, and they're easy to replace.   Not the easiest, but still simple compared to the gain to the point that it feels like if I don't stop myself from using the tempest I will only use the tempest. (my personal nerf would likely just be an OP increase and a rarity bump though). 
Now THAT's odd.
I thought rarity was NOT taken into consideration when you're making a tier list about HOW GOOD they are.
For instance, are monitors good? Sure they ARE, they draw heavy fire easily and help ally ships win the flux war.
But FFS they're so rare that I never meet second monitor in any game, but THAT shouldn't be a reason to rank it lower.

They're not much of a threat to the player because the game doesn't throw packs at you, but I think they'd be a huge problem if you created a common early game fleet of say 8 of them as a fast picket running multiple variants.
Yeah sure, they do post a threat to early game fleets, but as the game progress and fleet size increasing they become less and less effective.
In end game fights they're just like flies, buzz but can't bite.

I can believe they do miracles in player hands, but I have a hard time believing they perform meaningful ones.  I can generally kill a whole bunch of ships of any size in an actual battle with a tempest, and I can generally do the same with a phase ship.  I sometimes find the tempest easier to succeed with simply because it's easier to execute and stays in the fight longer (and again, just sending an ion pulse drone after the proper targets is easy and very powerful). 

Again I see no point in who can 1v1 a paragon or some other kind of comparison better because it's not a realistic or common situation.   Wiping out several capital ships and cruisers in quick succession in a real fight is, and it's something they both do more than well enough to the point that figuring out who's the best (almost certainly phase ships), no longer matters because it doesn't actually affect play anymore.
Just, how long does your Tempest need to take out a paragon in your so-called "real" fight?

For Afflictor it's like 10 seconds and that paragon is NOT going to harm ANY of your ships from then on.
What about Tempest? It does have a chance, but how long does your teammate need to tank all the heavy fire for you to eventually get through paragon's shield?
How about when enemy managed to send TWO paragons and they cover each other so well? Does tempest stand a chance to even get close?



I will also point out that one of the reasons i put it on the line with an S tier is because it's very simple to mass tempests.  If you mass paragons you'll break the game, but it's not realistic and by the time you've done that you should expect to break things.  Massing phase ships is also hard.  Massing tempests feels much much easier.

I'm now wondering what build you're using on tempest? I don't see any medium energy can out-range cruisers WHILE packing heavy hits.
Unless you're using any mod weapon or playing in easy mode, I can only see tempest getting more and more useless as fight size grows.
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Megas

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #223 on: May 05, 2018, 05:26:23 AM »

Now THAT's odd.
I thought rarity was NOT taken into consideration when you're making a tier list about HOW GOOD they are.
For instance, are monitors good? Sure they ARE, they draw heavy fire easily and help ally ships win the flux war.
But FFS they're so rare that I never meet second monitor in any game, but THAT shouldn't be a reason to rank it lower.
That is probably why Centurion was made.  Imitation Monitor, except now that Damper Field was gutted to make Mora easier to kill, Centurion is merely fodder.

Would be nice of there was a proper midline frigate gunship, like a frigate-size Hammerhead or Eagle.  Brawler and Vigilance aren't it, Kite isn't it, Monitor isn't it, and neither is Centurion.

Hopefully, blueprints will fix much of the unfun rarity nonsense.  Rarity is why I use mostly clunkers, even if it is not fun, because grinding replacement rare stuff for hours or days is worse.
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Embolism

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #224 on: May 05, 2018, 02:40:22 PM »

Now THAT's odd.
I thought rarity was NOT taken into consideration when you're making a tier list about HOW GOOD they are.
For instance, are monitors good? Sure they ARE, they draw heavy fire easily and help ally ships win the flux war.
But FFS they're so rare that I never meet second monitor in any game, but THAT shouldn't be a reason to rank it lower.
That is probably why Centurion was made.  Imitation Monitor, except now that Damper Field was gutted to make Mora easier to kill, Centurion is merely fodder.

Would be nice of there was a proper midline frigate gunship, like a frigate-size Hammerhead or Eagle.  Brawler and Vigilance aren't it, Kite isn't it, Monitor isn't it, and neither is Centurion.

Hopefully, blueprints will fix much of the unfun rarity nonsense.  Rarity is why I use mostly clunkers, even if it is not fun, because grinding replacement rare stuff for hours or days is worse.

Brawler needs to go back to being the midline frigate gunship, it even has gunship in its name. Ammo Feeder should again be baseline (being on the shoehorned Luddic variant doesn't cut it), and it should have its old top-of-the-line flux stats back. Doesn't matter if it's "too vulnerable without Damper Field" (which currently does nothing for frigates anyway), having a weakness is far better thing than having no identity (what with three midline frigates trying to fill the tanky role).

And Damper Field should either scale inversely with ship size or Mora should lose it. Better arcs on the Centurion could help too, same goes for the Wayfarer. Most of the new frigates seem to be going for the "360 degrees small turret coverage" and the only one it works for is Scarab and the only reason for that is because it can bring 5 of them to bear in the front.
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