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Author Topic: Ship Tier List  (Read 190532 times)

TaLaR

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #195 on: May 01, 2018, 04:31:41 AM »

The Tempest is definitely S.  Hyperion is more like B++.

This implies that player-piloted Hyperion is only equal to Tempest (same S tier), while it's actually far superior. Not just at killing capitals either. Defeating all 6 sim Tempests in one go with a skill-less Hyperion is hard, but possible. Doing same thing with a Tempest (or pretty much anything except Paragon or potentially corner-camping Onslaught) - nope, no way.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 04:33:44 AM by TaLaR »
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Megas

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #196 on: May 01, 2018, 05:37:05 AM »

Tempest is not overpowered enough to deserve an S.  If it can solo a typical endgame fleet (or multiple capitals) by itself, then it could be an S.  Tempest might have been able to do that before 0.7, but not today.  For a frigate, Tempest is an A.
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #197 on: May 01, 2018, 11:42:27 AM »

Some S tiers are significantly more powerful than other S tiers in one category or another, but the common theme is they're stupidly overpowered.

The Hyperion is a very good frigate even if you take away the teleporter, having tons of OP, excellent flux stats, a powerful shield, fast speed, and plenty of hard-hitting slots.  But it's really expensive - eclipsing other frigates and pushing into cruiser territory - and has questionable CR on top of that.  Rank B.  The teleporter helps it out in the AI's hands to get out of trouble when necessary, but the AI can also get into trouble with it, and can't properly capitalize on it, so it has to be treated with care.  Rank B+.  In the player's hand, the Hyperion can indeed overcome the AI's limitations and start sniping large ships with impunity, but keep in mind ships like the Afflictor can also do this (more cheaply), and it won't be able to take down more than maybe a couple capital ships before CR kills it.  Rank B++.

The Tempest has plenty of OP, very good flux stats, a powerful - if arc-limited - shield that the AI is proficient in exploiting, very fast speed, and an effective slot layout that lets it work pretty well against everything.  It's not even that expensive and doesn't run into CR issues too quickly compared to competing frigates.  It also has an inexhaustible supply of super-flares that basically makes it immune to guided missiles, on top of that.  The Tempest's kit basically informs that it's a top-tier skirmisher, good in AI and player hands.  Rank A.  OH WAIT, it's also a *** carrier, with one of the most overpowered "fighter"s in the game built-in for free, giving it essentially a 0-OP fluxless Ion Pulser fired close-range from a flanking angle!  Rank S.
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TaLaR

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #198 on: May 01, 2018, 01:58:30 PM »

Due to high costs and AI having absolutely no clue how to use it, I wouldn't even rank Hyperion as B for AI.
But player-piloted Hyperion and phase frigates are in a class of their own.
Everything else has to wage and win flux wars in more or less conventional manner before they can damage armor/hull, while these 3 just bypass whole process.
Same in terms of defenses - phase frigates are only vulnerable for 2 seconds after decloak, if they choose to attack(they can stall safely). It takes something like Tempest+Terminator swarm to reliably exploit this vulnerability. Hyperion just has no vulnerability to exploit at all. As long as it has CR, it is near untouchable even while attacking.

In comparison, Tempest is merely the best conventional frigate (though Scarab is probably also superior for player piloting). It can't touch the Paragon, and can be hunted down by Talons(or at least pushed outside engagement area). It may be a tier above other conventional vanilla frigates (especially AI vs AI), but that's still far below Hyperion/phase.

Also, it's ship system if far from impressive. Missiles are not a big problem to high tech frigates in the first place - efficient omni shield and speed are the primary defenses, while flares are not reliable anyway. Compare it to Wolf's skimmer, which is 100% reliable for dodging missiles as long as you, the player, do not commit mistakes. So even in their primary and only role flares are worse than universally useful system on other frigate.
Tempest has high raw stats, Terminator is good, but it's active system is merely a placeholder as price for the drone.
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Megas

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #199 on: May 01, 2018, 03:22:49 PM »

Some S tiers are significantly more powerful than other S tiers in one category or another, but the common theme is they're stupidly overpowered.
Which Tempest is not.  Powerful, yes.  Overpowered?  Not... really in the 0.8 era.

It needs to fight conventionally.  It still has horrible shot range.  Its flux stats are probably no better than Medusa, if not worse.  If it needs to slug it out with a big ship with more shot range and lots of guns, it will die eventually.  The drone can only do so much.

The drone raises an otherwise B ship to an A.  Without it, Tempest would be no better than Wolf, possibly worse (due to no escape button to mitigate pilot error and costing more).

The reason Tempest seems overpowered is because most of the conventional frigates are kind of junky.

As for Hyperion, AI capturing points would be handy... if they were relevant... which they are not anymore (and I hope they still irrelevant.  Objectives need to go!)  For AI piloting Hyperion against enemy ships, it is Spathi incarnate - too cowardly to fight effectively.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 03:33:25 PM by Megas »
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AxleMC131

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #200 on: May 01, 2018, 11:28:06 PM »


... The reason Tempest seems overpowered is because most of the conventional frigates are kind of junky...


Um. Forgive me for my insolence, but isn't the whole purpose of this grading system to directly compare ships in different roles?

You seem to be under the impression that DR's "benchmark" is much higher than it is. If most frigates are "junk" (excuse me?), then the whole concept of comparing the stock ships across the entire selection is moot, and the bar should be lowered to where there is an even spread of ships from good to bad, and we get to - oh wait, that's where we are now!

Also, for the record, what that "benchmark" (if it exists) actually is is also entirely moot, because all we're doing is comparing. Comparing 1 to 2 is the exact same as comparing 5 to 6: the difference is "1", and yet where you place high and low matters hugely from the perspective of a player actually here for information (and not an argument on balance). If I have a scale that goes from 1 to 5, but everything I put on that scale is a 1 or a 2 (or for that matter, a 4 or 5), then the scale tells you nothing. In that situation surely you would adjust how you qualify each item on the scale, so you have items spread across it from 1 to 5.

The same applies here, I would imagine. Don't forget that this grading system isn't "what is a good ship". Because that is an incredibly nebulous term. From what I've gathered, ships are graded here on "how good is this ship in its given role, and/or outside of that role?" which, honestly, is far more useful.



TLDR: If conventional frigates are "junk", then you need to move your measuring stick.
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Megas

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #201 on: May 02, 2018, 05:44:07 AM »

TLDR: If conventional frigates are "junk", then you need to move your measuring stick.
Simply put, no.

* * *

What do we have for frigates?

Hound, Cerberus?  Shieldless and hard countered by some ships in a fight, but early-game pirates frequently do not have those hard counters.  Okay as frigate-sized haulers.

Kite?  Fragile rocket ship.  Alright in early game, but not for long.

Warfarer?  Frigate-sized Mule or Apogee (in terms of role).  Good hauler, but does not have the stats to fight effectively past Galatia for long.  Shepherd is better for a fight, and Cerebus is better at escaping a pursuit.

Shepherd?  Nice support ship that doubles as a hauler.  Basically frigate-sized carrier.

Lasher?  Early game, the good weapons are rare or unavailable, so it is a melee-range LMG boat, which is effective until it starts fighting big things that outrange and outgun it, or bigger fights that take more time to decide than reduced peak performance from Safety Override.  Later, it could get rare weapons that let it fight conventionally, but by then you really do not want to risk losing those rare weapons by mounting them on something relatively fragile instead of a bigger and better ship that needs those rare weapons just as badly.

Brawler?  No defenses whatsoever.  It cannot handle things by itself.

Vigilance?  Missile ship that does not brawl as well as others.

Monitor?  Damage sponge.  Good as meat shield, but not as an attacker.

Centurion?  Monitor-lite.

Wolf?  Good beam boat, decent if not great attacker, has an escape button.

Tempest?  Good attacker and defenses, and great speed.  Main weakness is poor shot range.  Drone can sometimes mitigate that.

Omen?  Appears to be support ship at best, useless at worst.

Scarab?  Weird attacker that can be effective despite terrible shot range, but costs a bit much to use.

Hyperion/Shade/Afflictor:  Killer playerships, cowardly and possibly ineffective AI wingman (for deployment cost).

Combat ships of bigger sizes generally do not have a pile of mediocrity with blatant weaknesses.  Most ships bigger than frigates are like Wolf or Tempest scaled up.  Frigates in general are like Mules, Gemini, Condor, Venture, or various second-rate ships scaled down.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2018, 08:38:04 AM by Megas »
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Sutopia

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #202 on: May 02, 2018, 06:16:47 AM »

What is the "standard", really?
Only ship class is taken into consideration? Hyperion is having destroyer tier supply cost you know.
When picking ships, IMHO the supply AND fuel cost are two main considerations.
EVERYONE want MINIMUM cost, right? Especially in fights that can drain tons of supply, expeditions draining tons of fuel.
Can a ship do what it's paid for? That's the only problem.

Classic frigates, sure, they're performing like rubbish, they're also dirt cheap and got extremely low maintaining cost.
You may not mind having a D-mod or two on a Cerberus or a Lasher, but it's surely a NO on tempest.
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Megas

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #203 on: May 02, 2018, 06:26:29 AM »

Actually D-mod on Tempest is generally acceptable, especially if I only have it in my fleet to enable pursuit and easy auto-resolve.  Tempest in my fleet?  Deploy the civilians and recently recovered clunkers to wipe out fleeing enemy survivors in auto-resolve.  Even in battle, I do not mind a D-mod or two on a Tempest when cleaning up a Lumen and Glimmer duo that insists on fighting my vastly superior fleet.

There are few ships that absolutely need full stats and no D-mod interference.  Hyperion is one of them.  Also, phase coil instability is crippling on phase ships, and Paragon absolutely does not want Glitched Sensors to interfere with range superiority.

Frigates are cheap until endgame, when they lack peak performance to fight as grunts in endgame battles.  They are mostly useful for special roles (e.g., Afflictor torpedoing Paragon), small battles against stubborn enemies (aforementioned Remnants) or, in case of Tempest, enabling pursuit and auto-resolve.
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #204 on: May 02, 2018, 12:47:18 PM »

You want a frigate to:
  • Capture points
  • Harass ships
  • Escape from trouble
  • Distract, flank, and interfere
  • Endure long enough to matter

Megas, the reason Tempest gets S is because it, sized and priced like a frigate, does the job of a frigate better than any other frigate of its price.

  • Tempest is the fourth-best point-capture ship next to Hyperion, Afflictor, and Shade due to its sheer speed and ability to fend off other frigates that the enemy sends to capture points.
  • Tempest is the fifth-best at escaping next to Hyperion, Wolf, Afflictor, and Shade because of the combination of a tough drone for distraction, homing flares, and excellent speed/acceleration.
  • Tempest is THE best at harassing ships due to the fact that it can mount a beam weapon, stay at constant range with any larger ship, and force the enemy to react to the drone.  Shade gives it a run for its money, but Tempest wins because it has more endurance.
  • Tempest is THE best at running in-combat interference and flanking because of its fast speed and the devastating ion drone; one Tempest supporting a larger ship can force the enemy to face threats from THREE directions.  Shade and Afflictor give Tempest a run for its money, but again Tempest wins because of the fact that the drone effectively doubles its flanking effectiveness.
  • Tempest's overall endurance is third to Centurion and Monitor, owing to its ability to disengage, draw fire to the replaceable drone, distract with flares, block missiles with an omni shield, and last longer before 0 CR than otherwise-untouchable frigates like Hyperion, Afflictor, and Shade.
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Megas

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #205 on: May 02, 2018, 01:01:58 PM »

Rubric
S: Powerful to the point that it breaks the game.  Extremely OP; clearly better than everything else.
A: Unambiguously powerful, enough that it can be considered best-in-class.  Typically the best option for a given role.
What you posted as reasons for an S in your last post sounds more like a A, maybe A+ at best, than a S.  Tempest is simply very good at its job (i.e., unambiguously powerful and best-in-class), not so-called "broken".  If Tempest could obliterate fleets on its own (like it used to), or even simply outfight an A-class capital like Paragon (which Tempest cannot do today), then I would agree with an S ranking.

The reasons I want frigates later in the game is to
* Enable pursuit and auto-resolve (Tempest does it best, because it can have degraded engines and still be mostly fine).
* Destroy Remnant duos or other small suicidal enemy AI fleets without deploying my workhorse ships (and conserve CR).

I do not care about objectives, excepts Sensors against a fleet with Electronic Warfare.

Harassing ships is not as good as killing them.  Inflicting death is the best support a ship can do.  Of course, distracting ships to enable other ships to kill is useful, but being powerful enough to simply steamroll the enemy (while still not expending too many resources) is even better.

As for the drone, Tempest needs it to distract enemies before it can attack things that outrange it, which is nearly everything that is good in a fight.  Without the drone, all Tempest has to approach an enemy ship that outranges it is twitch pilot skills to dodge stuff.  (I do not have world-class bullet-hell gaming skills to pull that off consistently, although I suppose I could lower game speed to less than 1f to try that.)  If Tempest cannot dodge everything, it will build up hard flux from incoming, maybe overload and die if it gets too greedy.

No frigate endures long enough in endgame battles.  Late in the game, frigates are handy for special roles like assassinating a key enemy ship or dealing with the likes of Lumen and Glimmer duo encounters without deploying my main force.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2018, 01:36:24 PM by Megas »
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #206 on: May 02, 2018, 02:05:00 PM »

And that's why I will not be finishing my tier list.
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FooF

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #207 on: May 02, 2018, 05:21:00 PM »

And that's why I will not be finishing my tier list.

A shame. I enjoy the thought you put into it. If nothing else, it sparked conversation.

The Tempest is an interesting outlier. If we're only talking about frigates, it's absolutely an S-tier for the reasons mentioned but from the perspective of the whole game, it's more like an A to me. Not because it's lacking S-tier qualities, per se, but because frigates inherently have a lower ceiling. It may be the best pound-for-pound (point-for-point?) ship in the game but there comes a time when skill and stats can't save you from cruiser/capital-grade firepower. That's just the nature of frigates.

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Thaago

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #208 on: May 02, 2018, 05:45:34 PM »

And that's why I will not be finishing my tier list.

Reasonable and respectful, constructive criticism following the guidelines you yourself made?
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Dri

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #209 on: May 02, 2018, 06:53:41 PM »

Ah come on, just finish it. Who cares what others think?

I enjoy reading tier lists and you've obviously put a lot of effort into this one so far!
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