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Author Topic: Ship Tier List  (Read 191221 times)

TaLaR

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #135 on: April 10, 2018, 08:52:56 AM »

Well, phase frigate are already top of the food chain in skill-less performance, so this doesn't affect their relative rating much.

AI is easily distracted, so having allies around creates opportunities even for ships that can't properly attack solo. But your allies are exactly as vulnerable as enemy, so being able to act effectively without over-relying on them is still a big advantage, I think.
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Megas

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #136 on: April 10, 2018, 10:01:10 AM »

We cannot get all of the skills, and if we want to be the best in combat, we must sacrifice everything not directly involved in combat (no Industry, no Navigation).  Not only that, due to the skill system, player that wants to be optimal for a given ship may not be for another ship.  If I want to be the best Astral pilot, I will need skills that are useless for the best Paragon pilot.  If I want some campaign QoL skills, I will never be the best combat pilot.  This would not be a problem if skills could be reset and retrained, but since that will not be an option, player must specialize to be the best with a ship and lock himself away from other ships - that hurts.  That is why I dislike playing carrier specialists, because I am stuck with three ships to pilot: Drover, Heron, or Astral.
As for the few ships that can mix brawling and carrying well, namely Legion (and Odyssey, in theory), there are not enough skills for being great at brawling and carrying (and the few great all-purpose skills everyone needs).  Requires too many points (for everything that makes brawlers and carriers good).  The best they can do is a generalist build that works for any ship, but that will never be as optimal as a build for a specific dedicated-role ship.
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TaLaR

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #137 on: April 10, 2018, 10:14:53 AM »

As for the few ships that can mix brawling and carrying well, namely Legion (and Odyssey, in theory), there are not enough skills for being great at brawling and carrying (and the few great all-purpose skills everyone needs).  Requires too many points (for everything that makes brawlers and carriers good).  The best they can do is a generalist build that works for any ship, but that will never be as optimal as a build for a specific dedicated-role ship.

I don't think Odyssey needs carrier skills that badly. Best use for fighters slots on it is Longbows - the only reliable long term kinetic source Odyssey can have. They will fire from afar even while regrouping, so are fairly easy to keep safe. And as long as you can keep them safe you don't need replenishment buffs.
Also it has just 2 fighters at Capital size - not worth spending ton of points on either way, for only 1/3 of return of what Astral could expect.
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Megas

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #138 on: April 10, 2018, 10:22:12 AM »

That is why I wrote "in theory".  Odyssey is terrible at brawling (worse than it was before) and will (need to) use its fighters to enable triple lance sniping or defend itself from flanking enemies.  It cannot afford to send fighters off to pick off ships like other carriers can.  If someone is not too familiar with modern Odyssey, they may think "Hey, high-tech warship that can mix fighting and carriers", which modern Odyssey cannot do.  Classic Odyssey could do that to some extent (with different fighter mechanics) before 0.7, when officers made carriers obsolete during that era.

Without fighter skills, Odyssey will probably want Expanded Deck Crew to help keep replacement rate under control.

I was considering primarily Legion, which can brawl effectively while sending fighters off to attack whatever like dedicated carriers do.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 10:23:50 AM by Megas »
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Thaago

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #139 on: April 10, 2018, 06:08:16 PM »

Another strange thing about the Longbow's firing while recalled is that they spend most of that time rearming - ie drawing down their replacement rate. So keeping them on regroup actually increases their long term firepower by keeping their replacement rate up.
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Philder

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #140 on: April 11, 2018, 09:46:02 AM »

There's no such thing as "S+" by DR's rubric here. S is as high as it gets.  ;) And, while we're at it, what on earth do you have in your head that could possibly be higher than S?  :o

:D DR's ranking is all kinds of generalized, and by definition ranking is scalar; so long as you have a single ship on the ranking spectrum, the rankings can potentially extend infinitely up or down/left or right. The only meaningful limits are the breakpoints for Overpowered/BestBalanced/Balanced/Underpowered.

I'm just using the +'s to indicate relative differences within the same breakpoint area. I gave Tempest S+ because SO + Dual Heavy Blasters gives it the ability solo any cruiser, practically face to face, except maybe Gryphons and carriers with certain loadouts. Other frigates require disabling engines/weapons and sitting in blindspots. Tempest can just alternate between blowing its flux load and evading to reduce flux.

IMO, to balance it, Tempest would need speed substantially reduced (below 140 at the very least), and flux stats reduced in line with other carrier type ships.

Phase ships would need their Systems revamped. A frigate dropping the shields of an orbital base (Paragon) from outside its defensive perimiter is just absurd. A nerf to flux stats, especially max capacity might also be required, to reduce burst potential and the amount of time/work required to corner a phase ship. Retuning of the AI so that they're less wasteful of their phasing usage might be necessary to keep them relevant as AI ships, such as making them more likely to sit outside the enemies range until an opportunity presents itself, like high flux or flanking. And/or, reduce their CR frailty to make up for the lost burst potential. Except for the max flux and overpowered ship systems, I don't think the stats need to be changed significantly. The max flux and ship systems alone will do a lot towards bringing them into balance. Better CR is there to both counteract the increased 'cornering' potention against it (instead of having to chase it around the map until its low CR disables it) AND make it more viable as a player fleet ship.
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TaLaR

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #141 on: April 11, 2018, 10:09:40 AM »

Tempest can get it's glory minute with SO, but really it's not that impressive compared to phase frigates or Hyperion even during this limited time-frame.

Also, what's with this obsession with nerfing frigates? Most ships, when properly skilled and player-piloted, can hit far above what would be their weight category under AI control (for Capitals that means defeating multiple opponent Caps).

The only thing possibly broken is QD on Afflictor - for that no counterplay exists. Otherwise AI could easily shutdown cap-killing frigates by using better variants and tactics (which doesn't have to be complex - just stubbornly refusing to drop shield would guarantee Paragon a win in 1v1 vs player-piloted Hyperion or QD-less Afflictor).
« Last Edit: April 11, 2018, 10:51:22 AM by TaLaR »
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Megas

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #142 on: April 11, 2018, 10:50:29 AM »

The easiest way for a bigger ship to win against a single smaller ship is waiting for the smaller ship to run out of gas, especially if the bigger ship has no chance to catch up to the smaller ship.  It is boring, but effective.
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c plus one

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #143 on: April 11, 2018, 12:02:41 PM »

The easiest way for a bigger ship to win against a single smaller ship is waiting for the smaller ship to run out of gas, especially if the bigger ship has no chance to catch up to the smaller ship.  It is boring, but effective.

I second that.
However, it is very dull indeed and in NO WAY "fun". >:(
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Philder

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #144 on: April 12, 2018, 11:06:55 AM »

Tempest can get it's glory minute with SO, but really it's not that impressive compared to phase frigates or Hyperion even during this limited time-frame.

Also, what's with this obsession with nerfing frigates?

Because their stats put them in a highly volatile position. As far as flux and OP for their supply costs go, they're exceptionally unbalanced. On average they have twice the amount as cruisers and capitals. They also have speeds that allow them to determine the terms of the engagement. Their only weakness is their fragility, stimied by their evasive abilities. They're otherwise given the flux stats capable of fielding offensive power far above their supply/deployment costs.

Ballistics, at least, has a hard limit in the way of lacking weapons with good armor piercing combined with all around stats at the small and medium size, making them much less effective against larger craft. Lowtech is also defined by their slower speeds. Their only advantage is effectiveness vs shields.

Energy, however has weapons with plenty of potential for breaking balance. Antimatter Blasters are just obviously OP. Heavy Blasters have the second highest shot damage of all medium weapons (not counting missiles) AND the highest all around DPS. Ion Pulser, while weak against armor, has obscene burst, a distinctly unbalanced amount of EMP output and is still quite effective against hull. Yes, these weapons have a weakness in the way of flux and OP costs and reduced range, but they are all circumventable and don't present a hard counterbalance to their strengths.

QD on Afflictor is not 'possibly' broken. It is DEFINITELY broken. The primary defense on many ships is their shields. The Paragon can even just sit there nice and dandy while a fleet wails on it....but a little frigate is allowed to completely circumvent it, and it's even allowed to mount weapons that can pierce a planetary station? It'd be like remaking Star Wars, except that all the rebels have to do is get an A-wing close enough to shoot at the Deathstar, and boom its gone. Original trilogy done by the first episode. Luke is still on Tatooine sipping blue milk. Han Solo is still out swindling gangsters. No incestuous makeouts. No flying green potatos or napping in adorable animal's stomachs.

What might be possible is you're biased from your enjoyment of piloting those little OP ships around XD

Also, comparing one unbalanced ship to another as proof of not being unbalanced isn't a logical argument. The Star Wars equivalent of your argument would be that the Deathstar isn't dangerous because Starkiller Base is more dangerous.

The comparison should be against the target samples, the ones already noted as having achieved a good balance.
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Cyan Leader

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #145 on: April 12, 2018, 09:42:56 PM »

If anything to me that is an indication that destroyers and above are OP/Flux starved and need buffing over frigates being overpowered. Moreover we don't need to have the same standards for every class of ship. Having more flux available won't magically increase the amount of weapon ports you have, you will lose flux wars if you miss-engage and you will run out of CR by trying to slowly chip the enemy away.
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TaLaR

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #146 on: April 12, 2018, 09:50:26 PM »

@Philder

If frigates (not phase/Hyperion) are so OP, why do they die so easily to most basic fighters - namely Talons? Just take skill-less Tempest and fight sim Condor with Talons. It's barely winnable for me and assured death for AI Tempest.

Energy weapons themselves in general are quite bad. Which is easily proven by fact that universal slots are almost always used for ballistic kinetics. But it's not like high-tech ships get to choose that often (only Medusa and Paragon have pair universal slots each).
-AM blasters are pretty much dedicated phase frigate weapons. Nothing else can effectively use them anyway. Removing/Hard-nerfing them kills viability of Shade and makes Afflictor a single-purpose Reaper-boat.
-Heavy blasters are poor-man HE replacement. Against shields and hull their flux efficiency is atrocious, when compared to properly used ballistic kinetic/HE guns.
-Ion pulse - I'm not sure why you value them so highly. Low sustained dps, low flux efficiency, low per-shot damage, short range - that's just too many drawbacks for me. Direct EMP is not that important - big hits by Heavy Blaster would have disabled weapons just as well.

If anything, rather than nerfing/removing weapons that work for shield bypass attacks (by phase frigates or Hyperion), I'd rather have AI recognize the threat of such attacks and try to counterplay (because currently AI just doesn't). And of course AI should use such attacks itself. With phase frigates possibly made closer in cost and rarity to Hyperion.

I wouldn't also say that DEs are too weak either. Player-piloted Medusa can easily and quickly kill any common frigate already (phase and Hyperion will take more time and effort).
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Eji1700

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #147 on: April 15, 2018, 03:37:48 AM »

Just going to throw my thoughts in because I was doing something like this anyways:

First thing, Cost and OP and to a small extent availability should be factored in (how easy can I mass this, and does that change anything about it basically).

Capitals:

Astral- I'd give it an A- but whatever.  That special ability is so insanely good.

Atlas/other cargo/fuel ships- It bothers me that trading in this game isn't really a playstyle (even illegal smuggling) because you can pretty much mark every single Cargo/fuel ship as a passive upgrade and then MAYBE care about how fast they go.

Legion- I'd probably move it to an A.  It's always good to have since fighter/bomber support will always cover weaknesses and it'll still delete the hell out of ships in AI hands.

Onslaught- I'd drop it to a B/B+.  Solid, reliable, good, but nothing amazing.  I'd take the legion over it every time.

Cruisers:
Dominator- Solid C in my eyes, but maybe i'm building them wrong.  For the OP/Cost I almost always want to bring something else, even if it's just more frigates/destroyers.

Gryphon- AN odd one, but an easy B in my eyes.  In the players hands it's just broken to the point of being silly and by far the best alpha strike hull I've found (fly in, delete a few things, retreat, fly something else).  In AI hands it's not stellar but still one of the best hulls for turning overloads into kills if you load it up with harpoon pods.

Mora- B+, the fact that it punches WAY above its weight and is very easy to obtain and deploy.  A single mora early game is a great flagship or support, and you can actually get a fleet of these quick and seriously wreck shop as long as you find half decent bombers.

Starliner- no really...whats the point of this?

Venture- C.  It is without a doubt the worst combat cruiser in the game, but what it really is is the poor mans heavy destroyer.  The default loadout makes a great escort ship as it'll pop shields and punish with it's missiles and do pretty great PD thanks to the drones and flak.  I'm generally happy to pick one up in the early game.

Destroyers:

Buffalo MKII (all versions): I hear you can do things with them but in a game where the AI sees you with no shields and just nukes you with hapoons this has certainly felt like a pretty solid F everytime i've ever bothered. Maybe an LRM platform, but then I could just not do that.

Condor: D+.  The + for being the "i need a carrier yesterday" option for difficult starts.  I don't think you ever wind up keeping it.

Drover: B-.  Might have to do with my AI struggles. They're a little too good at getting close for my tastes in AI hands and lack the punch to make that safe.  That said it's actually a very fun combat carrier.

Enforcer: C?  I look at the loadout and keep thinking it should be better, but I've almost never been impressed with them.

Gemini- C- for being a way to turn your cargo into something you aren't terrified to deploy and basically a better condor.

Hammerhead- B.  I'll always take a hammerhead as long as I can get the tech to kit it out half decent, which is pretty easy given how flexible it is.

Harbringer- I find it very hard to judge phase ships because due to their cost, rarity, OP, and drawbacks i'm almost always too worried to even let the AI touch them.  In human hands like most phase ships its a crazy good alpha strike ship.

Medusa- B-.  If only because it's harder to find/equip and a little more fragile than a hammerhead.

Mule- D+ I want combat trader to be a playstyle so bad, but it just feels like pulling teeth.  Maybe i'm building it wrong, but so far I've never been impressed.  The + is because sometimes early game you just want a freighter than can fight, but unlike the gemini I wind up a lot more worried my cargo capacity might explode.

Sunder- B.  This and the hammerhead are the Ryu and Ken of the game to me.  A large energy + its ship system on a destroyer has some very efficient burst options for the OP, and it's super easy to make an AI variant that'll handle itself and still clean up.

Frigates:

Afflictor: no idea.  I've almost never gotten one.

Brawler (normal) - B.  Damper field is just so wonderful.

Brawler (TT) - C.  Maybe i've been doing it wrong, but I find these things to be made of paper and rarely if ever able to justify their slots due to flux issues.

Centurion- C-, at least that's what it's felt like the few times i've tried to use it.  Seems like an escort ship, but man color me unimpressed.  Damper field is still great, but unlike the brawler it's just not a threat.

Cerberus- D.  If star sector were a Saturday morning cartoon the villains henchmen would fly these.

Houd- D. Or these...for variety.

Hyperion- Can't really class it.  From what i've seen it's no where near worth it in the hands of the AI and fails critically in every possible way, even with builds that don't really take advantage of it's nature.  In human hands it's a very expensive way to get to delete a few ships before leaving.  I suspect it's really more of a B since it's just so damn impractical when you can accomplish most of the same effect that it has with other, less interesting, ships.

Lasher- B.  The hammerhead of the frigate world.

Monitor- D.  Might just be me again but this is like a Brawler/Mora, but with shields....oh and unlike those ships you never actually care if it's still alive.  The mora is a real threat and the brawler is a big enough thorn that you're often stuck trying to avoid it since killing it is a pain.  I mostly just ignore monitors and feel that it's gone the same way when i've used them.

Mudskipper MK.II- D+.  ONLY because if you can get a mass of them things start to get silly.  Probably an F and i'm just too excited about dumb gimmicks.  Especially when you consider that almost every large ballistic weapon EXCEPT the gauss is even more terrible on it.  The gauss at least lets you mass them on escort on a carrier so they can provide fire support from relative saftey.  Everything else gets them in firing range which means they're a great way to get rid of all those extra large ballistic weapons you don't want taking up space.  I also never found any medium that was all that impressive.

Omen- A  The Emitter is crazy powerful, extra so on a maneuverable frigate hull.  The only reason it's not a + is because it shares weaknesses similar to phase ships in that i get a little worried giving it to the AI.  Still fairs way better than them though and can just murder  its way through a ton of OP.

Scarab- C.  I think I used it once and while fun I was heavily unimpressed.  From a strategy standpoint it just didn't feel very good.  From a "fun to fly" standpoint it's an A.

Shade- another phase ship, another hard to say.

Tempest- A+/S-.  I will always take a tempest.  Always.  They do anything and everything and they do it all well, and a huge part of that is because in human hands they're crazy and AI hands it's hard to screw up having an Ion pulse drone.

Vigilance- C+.  I don't actually hate them but I often wish I had something else.

Wayfarer- D. I feel like if this game supported the millenium falcon playstyle, this would be that ship.  It doesn't, so meh.

Wolf- B-.  Flexible, powerful, reliable.  My only issue being they're harder to find and outfit than a lasher, and with a bad layout they're awful in AI hands. 
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Thaago

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #148 on: April 15, 2018, 09:32:16 AM »

I'll put in a few words to defend the Condor, which I think is a 'C+' according to the original metrics: Generally serviceable, but not exceptional, with a + for a few specific loadouts. Its a good ship to give to the AI for support in the early/midgame, but a bit boring to fly as a player.

Its cheap, at 8 supplies per battle vs a Drover's 12, and disposable. While their shields are crap, they have ok hull and armor, so they are reasonably tough. They don't have a fighter system, but if gets two fighter wings onto the field. If you have a damaged one, as long as the flight deck and engines are ok, everything else is fine to be trashed.

The ship systems works really well with two missiles: Typhoon Reaper and Salamander Pods, neither of which need extended missile racks. If fighting small ships, the sudden burst of 4 Salamanders will almost always get an engine kill, letting either the fighters or a combat ship chase down the little buggers. The Reaper is great for fighting larger ships: its a turret mount, and the AI is a freaking double tap sniper with the thing. It might only happen once per fight, but having the cheap disposable support destroyer first overload and then smash a reaper into a cruiser hull is rather nice.

That said, it doesn't have many OP, and has no system to give it dps bursts. I feel its best served with constant pressure type fighters or interceptors and not bombers. Talons do well enough for the early/midgame. (And of course if fighting stations slap on bombers.)

For endgame I phase it out not because its bad, but because its a light destroyer: with only 25 slots, its just not enough power.
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Igncom1

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Re: Ship Tier List
« Reply #149 on: April 15, 2018, 09:35:47 AM »

Also how are we judging a ships ability when alone vs in a fleet?

A Griffon alone is kinda bad, but when escorted can murder entire frigate fleets when equipped with a locust launcher.
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Sunders are the best ship in the game.
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