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Poll

Should Odyssey 3 large turret sweetspot piloting awkwardness be fixed?

Make 3 turret sweetspot convenient to use (several variants how)
- 7 (21.2%)
Remove 3 turret sweetspot, compensate elsewhere
- 12 (36.4%)
Fine as is
- 8 (24.2%)
No preference on option 1 or 2, but something needs to change
- 6 (18.2%)

Total Members Voted: 33


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Author Topic: Odyssey's piloting  (Read 16015 times)

TaLaR

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Odyssey's piloting
« on: March 27, 2018, 01:13:44 AM »

(based on discussion in http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=13310.0 , among other things)

Odyssey can be decently strong as 3xTL kite-and-snipe boat, BUT doing so incredibly awkward due to narrow and offset sweetpoint where all 3 large turrets align. And other builds just don't come close in terms of power (arguable, as seen by some community members, but that's at least how I see it).
Seems dangerously close to unfun, but optimal gameplay to me.

Can Odyssey be somehow changed to alleviate that?

-1) Embrace it's role as TL sniper and make sweetspot more usable. Either by moving it forward so that I can pilot with turn-to-cursor. Or make it significantly wider, if it stays offset. Or maybe even give a setting in variant design that allows to set custom turn-to-cursor facing.

-2) or radically redesign Odyssey so that it can't be used as TL sniper at all (no 3 turret overlap or even close enough coverage, since you still could manage to fire all 3 TLs within HEF active time, if gap was small). But compensate it with significant buffs elsewhere.

-3) or are most people actually fine with Odyssey as is.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 03:35:04 AM by TaLaR »
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TJJ

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Re: Odyssey's piloting
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2018, 03:01:12 AM »

The AI doesn't utilise the sweet spot, and in human hands it pigeon holes the ship into a very limited battlefield role that isn't particularly fun to play.

So yeah, I'd like to see some tweaks to the Odyssey; preferably in the 'make it better' direction.

It's a nice design visually, but that huge shield bubble bugs me too...
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Grievous69

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Re: Odyssey's piloting
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2018, 04:15:51 AM »

What if it had a unique hullmod, just like the Conquest and Paragon have. One that will make its shields follow the figure of the ship, so it's not a circle like usual. No idea if this makes any sense lore-wise but it would make it that much cooler since it's such a long yet narrow ship. Also it would kinda justify the shield nerf we got from the last patch.

About the sweetspot thing, I'm fine with any change as long as it makes flying the ship actually fun and not a pain in the ass.
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Wyvern

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Re: Odyssey's piloting
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2018, 09:39:33 AM »

Actually, if I were to give the Odyssey a unique hull mod, I'd give it something that reduces OP cost of missile weapons.  They're always the first things to go when trying to scrape up enough ordnance points to make the build work, and it'd be nice to be able to put something there and not feel bad about it.  If we leave its available ordnance points unchanged, maybe also reduce fighter OP costs?  (Perhaps -8 to OP costs of missiles and fighters would work?  That'd make small missile weapons and some basic fighter types free, and make medium missiles and mid-grade fighters still pretty cheap.)
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TaLaR

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Re: Odyssey's piloting
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2018, 09:47:35 AM »

If 3 turrets were changed to not overlap, first thing I'd prefer changed would be ship system. Wouldn't be able to gain much out of HEF with just 2 turrets anyway.
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c plus one

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Re: Odyssey's piloting
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2018, 11:22:28 AM »

The nearly-impossible-to-use large-turret arc problem needs to be corrected with wider arcs and a mild overall arc shift that favors frontal ("bow-on") fire a bit more than is currently enjoyable to perform by the player..

Odyssey is also significantly starved of ordnance points. These need to be raised by at least 25.
Why? To cite one key example thus far:
It's unfeasible as well as ludicrous that a capital ship, even though it's a cruiser-hunting Battlecruiser and not a full Battleship, should have to routinely forego weapons in all three of its medium missile turrets empty due to the design oversights which require OPs to be poured en masse into flux improvements.

I'll yield the floor to others whom wish to criticize in detail the poor 0.9-efficiency shield's effect on the ship viability.
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Megas

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Re: Odyssey's piloting
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2018, 11:48:47 AM »

Two problems with non-Tachyon Lance builds:
* They used to be viable, if not great, before the shield nerf.  Odyssey still got clobbered by a battleship, but not as easily as today.  Now that Conquest is stronger (more hull/armor, and more OP), it clobbers Odyssey too today.
* They are high-risk, medium-to-high reward.  Among those, I have the best success with triple plasma cannon and claw wings, and success depends if claws survive AND disable enemy weapons.  If they fail, Odyssey crashes and burns due to enemy outgunning it.

When Odyssey got its second flight deck in a later 0.8.x patch, its OP was unchanged.  It was somewhat OP starved with only one deck, but now it is very OP starved.  Talons are insufficient on Odyssey.  Odyssey needs its fighters to make up for weaknesses.  For a beam boat, Odyssey must use either Broadswords or Longbows for hard flux.

No matter what configuration is used, I always leave missiles empty.  I also often leave a few small mounts empty.

Quote
Odyssey is also significantly starved of ordnance points. These need to be raised by at least 25.
ITU is worth 25 OP.  Everyone will put at least DTC on it if ITU is unavailable.  Just make ITU free and builtin like Advanced Optics is on Astral (and do not lower OP total to compensate since it is already OP starved).

As for the question of turrets.  I am fine with them the way they are - at least they are not as hard to use Centurion's turrets.  If there is a ship that needs better turret arcs, it is Centurion.  However, I am also fine with Odyssey's turrets changed to make it easier to aim all three turrets.

If High Energy Focus is no longer useful after a turret change, and the system needs changing, I probably would want Reserve Deployment so it can at least compete with Legion on fighter power.  Anything Odyssey is somewhat decent at, Legion does it better.

I would not mind a unique hullmod that made all missile weapons free.
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HELMUT

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Re: Odyssey's piloting
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2018, 11:51:44 AM »

I'm personally satisfied with the current performances of the Odyssey. It is a situationally useful ship for some specific situations, which is fine by me.  It's my go-to vessel when i need to face an opponent i can't outgun.

As for builds, while the tachyon boat works well as a long range support ship, i personally like to build mine as a close range brawler with autopulses. A bit like a bigger Aurora, its speed allows to get in the face of the target and quickly disengage when needed. Of course, it's not supposed to brawl against capital ships, but anything smaller have all the reasons to fear something with HEF and three missile mounts.

Bear in mind, i'm not opposed to any change. Mesotronik talked at some point about an eventual "Heavy Ballistics Integration" hullmod variation for the Odyssey, which could be interesting (this would finally be a good occasion to stick a Guardian in there). Although this might pigeonhole it further in the triple tachyon boat build.
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Goumindong

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Re: Odyssey's piloting
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2018, 12:04:10 PM »

I like the current Odyssey and the turret sweet spot is superfluous. HEF is still very valuable to 2 turrets. And it serves a unique and valuable role that other battles ships cannot do due to their much lower speed and inability to effectively fire orthogonal to the primary movement direction

if anything were to be changed I would tweak its deploy cost down to 40 or 35 and its fuel cost down to 8 or 9. Or maybe give it advanced sensors like the Apogee or a decreased sensor radius. It’s already 2 burn faster than any other capital which is super valuable and so leaning into the strategic aspects of the ship without overpowering the ship on the tactical map might be fun.

edit: As an example this is a typical Odyssey build that i might use

ITU, Advanced Turret Gyro's, ECCM, Aux Thrusters

Hard Side : 2 Tachyon's +4 IR Pulse Lasers OR 4 Tactical Lasers
Rear: 2 x Burst PD
Soft Side: Autopulse + 5 IR Pulse Lasers
Hangar: 2x Spark
Missiles: Salamander or Harpoon

+15 Flux Vents to +19 Flux Vents


You have enough dissipation to fire either side on its own(If using IR on the front you may need to hold off on the inefficient tachyon lances until an opportune time) and that is all you need. You can trade Vents to swap the Sparks for Xyphos. They're worse at missile intercepting but the 4 ion cannons they bring will make short work of pretty much any target you're shooting at and keep it flux locked.

The Salamanders are largely defensive. The AI treats them as a threat and runs away, and the ECCM makes them fast enough to disable enemy ships so you can kill them. The soft side cleans up anything dumb enough to get behind you and the sparks take care of incoming missiles. Harpoons (with or without ECCM and maybe with or without expanded racks) are also nice swap for some extra oomph in killing larger ships once you overload their shields with the 2 tachyons) but you're not a conquest so if you want to go for kinetic puncturing plus ECCM/Expanded MIRVs you're better off going there.

Optimal play sends you into a hard right turn immediately, circling around and cleaning chaff as you push the enemy forces into the rest of your fleet.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 12:30:01 PM by Goumindong »
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SCC

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Re: Odyssey's piloting
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2018, 03:24:54 PM »

The biggest problem is that Conquest has better weapons while not being that much slower, which means that if you want to catch small fish, Conquest is better at it anyway.
I have tried 2 claw, 2 plasma cannons set and while it proved a decent duelist, it had 3 drawbacks: needs a lot of OP/skills to work, each salvo is 8 thousand flux up (unless you bother with alternating targeting), which isn't very flexible and the fact that you rely on claws for distraction and harassment means that you're at mercy of fighter AI going pants-on-head *** and putting the fighters between me and the ship I'm attacking, which means they're damaged/destroyed before I get in a comfortable position.

Techhead

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Re: Odyssey's piloting
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2018, 05:48:34 PM »

Agreed that the Odyssey is probably OP starved. The Conquest, the closest comparable ship, has 45 OP more plus an OP-discount hullmod. (Itself equivalent to 40 OP if you make use of it.) I know the Conquest has more slots to fill, but not that many more.

And it also falls short in flux stats when you consider the difference between large energy weapons and large ballistics.
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Megas

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Re: Odyssey's piloting
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2018, 06:16:39 PM »

Another thought:  If the three heavy mounts were changed to no longer overlap, then the missile mounts should be changed to synergies (or better yet, universals) to make up for lost firepower.  The other capitals (except Astral) can focus the equivalent of at least two heavy and two medium mounts worth of weapons at one target.  The only way Odyssey can do this is to overlap all three heavy mounts.
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Snrasha

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Re: Odyssey's piloting
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2018, 11:19:12 PM »

I love the current Odyssey and the arc of their weapons, this is a broadside ship for me, so no problem.
This is a battlecruiser, he have zero problem for kill a cruiser and this is logic than this ship is bad against capital ship, because this is not the reason of this existence.

He is fast, good, but i can never fit every layout on the ship. I do not search to put longbow on the ship, but it lack of something linked to the OP, this is nearly impossible to put a weapon on every mount and made a viable Odyssey. Compared to the Onslaught and the Paragon. (Same if it need to be compared more to Conquest who is not a front-ship, but i play never it)

I disagree for changing the weapon mount, or their arc, but i agree than it need a OP Buff but i am not sure also on that.
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Rigel

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Re: Odyssey's piloting
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2018, 03:02:43 AM »

1+ to Odyssey's missile mounts changed to synergy (or maybe just the front 2 missile mount only). honestly if odyssey is supposed to fire all three of the main large mounts at a single location then what's the point of the broadside design it has? and according to TJJ the ai doesn't utilize the sweetspot either
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Megas

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Re: Odyssey's piloting
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2018, 04:58:51 AM »

This is a battlecruiser, he have zero problem for kill a cruiser and this is logic than this ship is bad against capital ship, because this is not the reason of this existence.
Conquest is a battlecruiser too, yet it is powerful enough (since 0.8 ) to slug it out with other capitals and have a decent chance to win (or utterly crush Odyssey almost as easily as Onslaught can), and chase down cruisers and some smaller ships almost as well as Odyssey thanks to Jets spam.  It could be argued that Legion is like a battlecruiser too, and it too can stand up to capitals, and thanks to fighters and it can sweep the field to destroy smaller ships with ease.

Odyssey being unable to stand up against capitals, including other battlecruisers, just because it is a battlecruiser is no longer justified.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 05:15:28 AM by Megas »
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