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Author Topic: Minefields  (Read 33426 times)

Bribe Guntails

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Re: Minefields
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2018, 05:13:02 PM »

Very exciting stuff as always. I can imagine how this cranks up the ohsh*tfactor of the biggest station battles by an order of magnitude, not to mention how cool the new Doom is.

Now that the Doom's old shipsystem is available, you have the potential to stick it on an elusive frigate and create The Most Hated Ship...

A higher-tech pirate ship with such system sounds good; interdicting retreating cargo ships so the rest of the crew can catch up. Additionally, a permanent hullmod which reduces that ship's weapon range so that it doesn't frustrate the victim who can't get in range.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2018, 05:18:20 PM by Bribe Guntails »
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Alex

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Re: Minefields
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2018, 05:36:19 PM »

Quantum Disruptor would probably make Harbinger great (like Afflictor is now) and worth its cost.  I would probably make Harbinger a Reaper boat with that like current Afflictor.  All I use current Afflictor for is anti-capital when I have not yet found a capital.

So, overall sounds positive.

Come to think of it, Amplify Damage will probably work better with Afflictor (with four AM blasters) than current Harbinger (two or three mining/heavy blasters or phase lance).

Going to be a bit tough to fire off 4 AM blasters, flux-wise. Not impossible, but takes skills, a dedicated loadout, and a relatively brief approach. I mean, it's *possible* without skills or an absolute-max-capacity loadout, but it's really cutting it close.

I could see the arguments for not laying minefields in your own orbit among shipping lanes, but I guess "pre-laid" also technically covers "spit them out an hour before the enemy ships showed up".

I mean, the mines are phased and "smart", what could possibly go wrong?

Talk about IA behavior make me think about one of the current problem with it (IMHO): the shyness problem of IA in general, with station in particular, and and lack of with carriers. I was wondering if an overhaul of IA is in your list. As stations combat will be more present, and most importantly you will be subject to defend it this time, how is the IA doing so far? In my games, I'm often exasperated by Condor engaging enemy at point blank range, frigate unable to maintain pressure another one even if it outrange its adversary, and even cruisers which get picked at distance by battlestation because they don't want to cross the distance.

... oh, right, you mean "AI". Took me a minute, since I thought it was "Interdiction Array" and it wasn't making sense :) The carrier stuff is the result of a couple of bugs, now fixed. As far as engaging the station, selecting everything and right-clicking works pretty well for an all-out assault.

If a ship's flux is maxed out, it's not going to want to close in, but that's more a symptom of not bringing enough ships than an AI problem. But can't say anything without seeing exactly what you're talking about; AI stuff in particular, so much is subject to interpretation that just a description is very rarely enough to go on.
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Megas

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Re: Minefields
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2018, 05:44:41 PM »

@ Alex: I forgot to take into account of possible flux use with the Entropy special.  If it generates significant flux, four at the same time would probably not be possible (although I can fire two now, wait a little and fire two more later).  But then again, with AM blaster's reload times, I am not necessarily pressured into venting and killing Entropy whatever.  Also, if only two blasters can be used, then that might make pirate Afflictors (who can only mount two to begin with) useful.  With Harbinger, I really want to vent spam the useful energy loadouts, but that wrecks the Entropy special while it is active if I want to solo fights with it.  Pulse laser on Harbinger for better flux efficiency is not a great idea because Harbinger will take hits staying that close to the enemy for more than a few moments.  I really want to use medium burst weapons on Harbinger, which do not mix well with the special.  AM blaster reloads will probably work nicely with Entropy; fire blasters, and just sit and wait.  Vent spamming will not help reload AM blasters any faster.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2018, 05:51:22 PM by Megas »
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TaLaR

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Re: Minefields
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2018, 08:29:07 PM »

@Alex
"The system AI uses a fairly versatile scoring system to prioritize mine-targeting. For a proficiency test, it had to solo an Astral carrier – which it did, laying mines ahead of incoming fighter flight paths, then crippling the fighter wings trying to regroup behind the carrier, and eventually pressuring and destroying the carrier itself."

That's very nice, but how about going deeper?
Sounds like Astral could easily counter that by using recall whenever significant amount of fighters is threatened. Or even just setting them to regroup for a short while, if they can turn around in time.
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Alex

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Re: Minefields
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2018, 09:15:09 PM »

@ Alex: I forgot to take into account of possible flux use with the Entropy special.

Ah, yeah, I reduced its flux cost a lot. For the Harbinger, I've been partial to using Phase Lances - there's such a nice synergy there with firing, cloaking to dissipate soft flux while also making the lances cool down faster, and emerging to fire again. You can't keep the entropy amplifier up the entire time, but it's still a nice alpha bonus. I might remove the energy damage penalty from QD - added an item to take a look - since it'd be nice to retain more Harbinger build diversity.

"The system AI uses a fairly versatile scoring system to prioritize mine-targeting. For a proficiency test, it had to solo an Astral carrier – which it did, laying mines ahead of incoming fighter flight paths, then crippling the fighter wings trying to regroup behind the carrier, and eventually pressuring and destroying the carrier itself."

That's very nice, but how about going deeper?
Sounds like Astral could easily counter that by using recall whenever significant amount of fighters is threatened. Or even just setting them to regroup for a short while, if they can turn around in time.

Alright, let's theory-craft a bit!

Regrouping probably wouldn't do the job; mines usually end up between the bombers and the heavy fighters, so one or the other is going to bite it. A pure-bomber loadout might be able to pull back, but that's at best a delaying move, and when the Doom gets closer, it'll be able to mine the retreat path or just mine the bombers directly - while you can't telefrag ships (mines will spawn a ways outside their collision radius if you try), you can telefrag fighters. Mine placement isn't exact but it doesn't have to be.

Recall device is again a delaying tactic, and it's, what, 50% of the base flux capacity. Would save the fighters, sure, but the resulting tactical situation would be worse than what it started with - the Doom is closer, its mines are recharging rapidly (and it almost certainly has some left as well), and flux is high, so another recall would likely result in critical levels.

In a not-1-vs-1, though, both would be useful tactics - and I'd imagine the player could leverage them to win a 1 vs 1. ... actually, that'd be fun to try - let me give it a quick shot.

First try - got completely wrecked by the Doom, dealt zero hull damage. Getting cute with the fighters ultimately accomplished nothing - they survived longer, but couldn't do anything. At some point, the Doom is close enough that it starts placing mines both in front and behind you while also firing Reapers and Sabots and it just gets bad.

Second try - managed to win, albeit with the fighters mostly dead, and taking some damage. Mainly had to do with staggering Squall fire to keep constant pressure on the Doom; the Daggers managed to get a few hits in when it unphased unwisely, and then eventually I wore it down, although by that point, despite whatever trickery, the fighters were down to almost nothing.

Overall, feels like fighter-finesse here is best reserved as a player tactic - I don't think the AI could judge well enough when it's worth it, since it's so often not, and it'd probably look like it was bugging out besides, if you saw it recall (in either sense) nearly immediately on launching and didn't think too hard about it.
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TaLaR

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Re: Minefields
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2018, 09:46:03 PM »

@Alex, thanks for detailed analysis of why that won't work.

Do mines have friendly fire? If yes, is it easy/possible to make Doom kill itself/allies with mines? By spamming Talons on top of it/it's allies, for example. Then again, Talon Astral is a gimmick build at best.
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AxleMC131

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Re: Minefields
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2018, 10:17:58 PM »

Oh wow oh wow oh wow I'm actually super hyped for this feature.  ;D And the Doom! The poor, mistreated Doom is finally getting a ship system deserving of a phase cruiser!  :D The Interdictor Array was admittedly so lackluster compared to the fancy gimmicks other phase ships offered, and while I hope it finds a home on another ship, I'm not sorry to see it leave the Doom's system slot in favour of (dear lord) a minelayer.

With these new minefields, I just know 0.9's gonna be a blast:P
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Techhead

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Re: Minefields
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2018, 10:20:33 PM »

Any chance of seeing a gif of the Doom in action with its new system? Should I cross my fingers and hope it's featured on Screenshot Saturday?

RE: IA on Medusa:
Spoiler
I do not want Interdictor on Medusa.  Keep the skimmer on it (unless it gets a better mobility system).
I mean, as-is the Interdictor Array might be a little weak but with minor buffs (to the system or the ship) I think it's a fine fit for the Medusa.

I feel like a phase skimmer destroyer wants to be sleeker and shootier.
[close]
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TaLaR

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Re: Minefields
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2018, 10:58:30 PM »

+1 to keeping skimmer on Medusa. It is the only vanilla DE I like piloting (for significant amount of time), precisely because of it's system.
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Embercloud

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Re: Minefields
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2018, 11:59:34 PM »

That's fantastic, I feel like there has been a lot of progress this month.

0.9 before the summer?
 ???
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Hypilein

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Re: Minefields
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2018, 01:06:45 AM »

That's fantastic, I feel like there has been a lot of progress this month.

0.9 before the summer?
 ???

Yes, I've enjoyed the recent influx of activity. Also, a lot of those things sound like refinement of aspects that are mostly done (like this one). I think we are getting closer, although I may, of course, be entirely wrong.
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Clockwork Owl

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Re: Minefields
« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2018, 01:08:02 AM »

Sooo, yeah. I've been using Doom for glorified freighters for my phase-only run since I felt it couldn't really do stuff like other phase ships. Now I'm happy to see it changed!

Also re: Afflictor/Harbinger skill changes - probably better for both sides... I'll have to see myself tho.
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CybranM

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Re: Minefields
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2018, 02:35:10 AM »

Im hoping for something like this scene from starwars :D
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Tartiflette

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Re: Minefields
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2018, 03:10:28 AM »

As far as missiles spinning: you can already do that! There's nothing new there code-wise; all the mine AI does is 1) give a command to TURN_RIGHT and 2) use a combination of strafe left/right/accel/decel to head towards its target, depending on what its facing is. Alternatively, it could control the velocity and angular velocity directly.
Hum is it that much efficient to have the missile spinning around rather than having a rotating sprite on an otherwise regular missile going forward?
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King Alfonzo

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Re: Minefields
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2018, 06:01:27 AM »

So...does this mean the Doom is now the Kira Yoshikage of spaceships?

Because I approve.
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