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Author Topic: Minefields  (Read 33161 times)

SafariJohn

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Re: Minefields
« Reply #90 on: April 04, 2018, 09:01:21 AM »

The EMP system is amazing and I will not tolerate anyone insulting it. It combos with the mobility aspect of phasing; you phase behind something that doesn't have shields over its engines, and hit F to instantly flame them out and disable most of their weapons. Not only that, it does 100 energy damage per arc on top of the EMP damage, so the Shade can outright kill other frigates with the EMP emitter alone.

Don't worry, I think it's a good system too! On the Shade, however, phasing is so important that the EMP Emitter often gets the short end of the stick.
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: Minefields
« Reply #91 on: April 04, 2018, 10:15:12 PM »

You could use same phase cloak to unload up to 3 AM blasters (4 for Afflictor with character skills) into any kind of ship, bypassing it's shield entirely (including omni). Compared to that, using EMP is at best a recreational activity while you wait for blasters to recharge.
You can unload 3 AM blasters into the rear end of a Dominator and it still probably won't flame out, it's got so many engine flares. It'll also still be firing at other ships and have active PD. The EMP Emitter solves those problems. The EMP Emitter allows the Shade to disable almost anything that it cannot kill in a single pass, allowing the rest of your fleet to pick off your flamed-out and weaponless victim while you find a different target. Yes, you can kill an Dominator with a 4 AM blaster Afflictor, and relatively quickly too, but a pack of Hammerheads can also kill a completely EMP'd Dominator relatively quickly, especially one with a great honking 3-AM-Blaster-Shot hole in the armor.

Not to mention the EMP Emitter makes the Shade immune to interceptors, whereas the Afflictor can be harassed out of the battlespace by a pair of Talon wings until it runs out of CR. Phase frigates can run from fighters, but not for very long.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2018, 10:38:11 PM by ANGRYABOUTELVES »
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TaLaR

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Re: Minefields
« Reply #92 on: April 04, 2018, 11:13:30 PM »

You could use same phase cloak to unload up to 3 AM blasters (4 for Afflictor with character skills) into any kind of ship, bypassing it's shield entirely (including omni). Compared to that, using EMP is at best a recreational activity while you wait for blasters to recharge.
You can unload 3 AM blasters into the rear end of a Dominator and it still probably won't flame out, it's got so many engine flares. It'll also still be firing at other ships and have active PD. The EMP Emitter solves those problems. The EMP Emitter allows the Shade to disable almost anything that it cannot kill in a single pass, allowing the rest of your fleet to pick off your flamed-out and weaponless victim while you find a different target. Yes, you can kill an Dominator with a 4 AM blaster Afflictor, and relatively quickly too, but a pack of Hammerheads can also kill a completely EMP'd Dominator relatively quickly, especially one with a great honking 3-AM-Blaster-Shot hole in the armor.

Not to mention the EMP Emitter makes the Shade immune to interceptors, whereas the Afflictor can be harassed out of the battlespace by a pair of Talon wings until it runs out of CR. Phase frigates can run from fighters, but not for very long.

In your theoretical Dominator firing at allies case, EMP by shade may save some ally, I give you that. Still, this case seems rare enough.

(Skill-less vs sim)
Talon harassment is of limited effectiveness against player-piloted phase frigate - it does make me waste significant amount of CR to avoid them, but Mora (2 Talons, 1 Gladius) is killed by Afflictor anyway.
Same situation with Shade did not get easier - yes, I can kill some fighters with EMP, but 1) It's not fast enough to make a dent in recovery 2) I take some damage in process every time (too many fighters and missiles incoming - and that's just against 2 Talons+ 1 Gladius wings!). And if I just ignore fighters, Afflictor is better in raw stats.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Minefields
« Reply #93 on: April 05, 2018, 07:43:46 AM »

In my experience, shade is better under AI control in a fleet context, since it will consistently act as effective PD and do some damage/emp to enemy ships. Afflictor is better as a player ship for strike purposes, but in AI hands, it is much less effective. In general (IMO), you can't depend on the AI to use alpha strike abilities effectively, but you can depend on it to use EMP fairly effectively. I would rather have AI shades in my fleet but I would also rather pilot an afflictor. In general, I don't use either much because tempests are better, except maybe one afflictor until I get a capital ship.

I would also say that EMP is more valuable in a fleet context than in a solo fight, especially when equipped on smaller ships. A wolf EMPing a capital/cruiser with an ion beam is much more value than any amount of damage it could do with a pulse laser in a reasonable amount of time, but in a solo fight, a wolf with an ion beam is going to be much less effective than one with a pulse laser since it lacks finishing power. Analyzing ships in solo fights can miss the bigger picture.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 07:45:29 AM by intrinsic_parity »
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Thaago

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Re: Minefields
« Reply #94 on: April 05, 2018, 09:32:16 AM »

I agree - the AI uses Shades pretty well. The ship combines being unkillable with being able to quickly disable a larger ship when the opportunity presents. Evaluating it in a 1v1 context doesn't show its strengths.
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TaLaR

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Re: Minefields
« Reply #95 on: April 05, 2018, 09:51:22 AM »

I agree - the AI uses Shades pretty well

Compared to average AI frigate performance - sure. Compared to what it actually can do (under player control) - not even remotely close.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Minefields
« Reply #96 on: April 07, 2018, 02:25:50 PM »

I agree - the AI uses Shades pretty well. The ship combines being unkillable with being able to quickly disable a larger ship when the opportunity presents. Evaluating it in a 1v1 context doesn't show its strengths.

In my experience the AI usually cuts off it's own system by immediately phasing after turning it on - a lot.
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Igncom1

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Re: Minefields
« Reply #97 on: April 07, 2018, 02:33:31 PM »

I see the AI do that with their shield a lot as well. Turning on and off so they eat the HE shells but block the KE ones.  ::)
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Sunders are the best ship in the game.
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