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Author Topic: Damper Field disables venting hard flux while active  (Read 4948 times)

TheWetFish

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Damper Field disables venting hard flux while active
« on: February 17, 2018, 06:28:12 PM »

Currently Damper Field allows ships to passively vent both hard & soft flux while Damper Field is active

This suggestion is changing Damper Field to passively vent only soft flux and not vent hard flux while it is active
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Ranakastrasz

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Re: Damper Field disables venting hard flux while active
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2018, 07:47:18 PM »

Given it disables shields and weapons, and doesnt block all damage I'm not sure that is an issue.

That said, It probably should should fit in with shields and cloak in blocking hard flux dissipation.
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TaLaR

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Re: Damper Field disables venting hard flux while active
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2018, 10:16:15 PM »

With Damper field as weak as it is, I don't see a need to further cripple it.
Damper Field already has an obvious counter - I start venting as soon as I see enemy using it (unless threatened by other enemies, in which case I just wouldn't focus target a Damper-user in the first place).
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MesoTroniK

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Re: Damper Field disables venting hard flux while active
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2018, 10:38:10 PM »

Damper Field weak... Hah, now I heard it all.

Have fun venting, or ignoring a Mora while it has its Damper Field on and spamming fighters at you.

TheWetFish

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Re: Damper Field disables venting hard flux while active
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2018, 11:42:39 PM »

It's not usually a huge issue but it rules out some particularly egregious situations that could occur as is.  Hopefully it is an easy fix ( ship_systems.csv -> Damper Field -> noHardDissipation = TRUE )

It is inconsistent with shields in that active defensive measures mechanically shouldn't allow venting of hard flux (without excessive care balancing them, Flux Shunt I'm looking at you).  Hard flux as a gameplay mechanism ensures that an opening in the defences will open at some point via dropping shields, active venting or overloading 

Damper Field dissipating hard flux allows for egregious situations where vent rate is maximised and soft flux is minimised, say by hold fire or using very low flux weapons.  This then allows the shields or Damper Field to be toggled continuously to a potentially large degree 

Increasing the soft flux cost of using Damper Field is a possible different solution, currently 1 flux/sec for 3 seconds.  I think disallowing hard flux dissipation may provide better interactions across the various other gameplay mechanisms
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 11:45:09 PM by TheWetFish »
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TaLaR

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Re: Damper Field disables venting hard flux while active
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2018, 11:44:43 PM »

Damper Field weak... Hah, now I heard it all.

Have fun venting, or ignoring a Mora while it has its Damper Field on and spamming fighters at you.

Damper Field was good (ok, maybe even OP) before it was nerfed. Now it merely delays the inevitable.

Tactics-wise: just max out flux rate in design, maintain below half flux in battle and skim once or twice away from fighters before starting vent, by the time fighters reach my new position I'm ready to raise shield/continue attack. Also reducing fighter density before going directly for Mora is important - you don't just dive into full compliment of fighters.
Similar tactics can be used by ships with other mobility systems (like pretty much everything Blackrock).
If I'm in ship without mobility system (which I have a very strong preference for) then I'm piloting either Onslaught/Paragon or other mod Capital, so Mora is not a threat in the first place.

Or just blow it up with Reapers in Afflictor(like anything else, really). Quantum Disruptor disables Damper Field too.

It is inconsistent with shields in that active defensive measures mechanically shouldn't allow venting of hard flux (without excessive care balancing them, Flux Shunt I'm looking at you).  Hard flux as a gameplay mechanism ensures that an opening in the defences will open at some point via dropping shields, active venting or overloading 

Yeah but other options that block hard flux recovery are actually good as defense (phase cloak / fortress make you pretty much immune, while basic shields are way more flexible in their usage).
Damper Field just is not a good form of defense in comparison - too much leaks through, it has fixed duration and limited amount of charges (that take long enough to recover), plus unless something else maintains pressure you allow enemy to vent. Also, having DF means not having a better system - that's opportunity cost too (trait that is shared only with fortress shield, which is clearly superior by a huge margin).
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 11:57:19 PM by TaLaR »
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Megas

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Re: Damper Field disables venting hard flux while active
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2018, 05:25:32 AM »

This is a classic case where a system that was previously fine on old ships (Brawler and Centurion) became (possibly) overpowered, or rather too annoying to fight, when a new ship (Mora) used it, and was weakened so that it was not so overpowered on Mora anymore, but made it useless for Brawler and Centurion.

66% was fine on Brawler and Centurion.  At 50%, Brawler and Centurion take too much damage while being helpless.  If Damper Field will stay at 50%, then it should not block venting or weapons fire because it is useless on anything that does not have lots of armor, like Mora.

Damper Field was an improvement on Brawler, until Damper Field became 50%.  Now, I want Accelerated Ammo Feed back because Damper Field is awful.

Centurion was the original user, but now its signature system is awful on it.  Almost any other system is better.

The only ship that can use Damper Field well is Mora.  Mora hijacked the system from Centurion (and Brawler).
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 05:27:41 AM by Megas »
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Inventor Raccoon

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Re: Damper Field disables venting hard flux while active
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2018, 05:55:14 AM »

-snip-
I agree completely. When Damper reduced 75% of incoming damage, it was pretty annoying on the Brawler and Centurion. At 66% it was fine on them but not on the Mora. At 50% the Mora is still really good but now those two frigates (especially the Centurion, whose only upside is being hard to kill as it lacks adequate firepower and speed) are much worse.

I think the easiest solutions are to A. Remove the Mora's Damper Field system and replace it with something else or B. Make Damper Field's damage reduction depend on hull size. Something like 66/50/40/35. (that said I seriously doubt there's any way to make Damper Field balanced on a capital ship)
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HELMUT

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Re: Damper Field disables venting hard flux while active
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2018, 09:04:08 AM »

I'm also with Megas and Raccoon here, Damper field, even the stronger old one, is fine when used on frigates. My experience with flying the Brawler and Centurion as flagships revolve around timing attacking, shielding, and damper field, which is actually pretty fun in its own way. Mora works the same in theory, in practice however, the thing is just too slow to do anything other than weathering the storm until its fighters eventually destroy their target. It's really good at that, but not very exciting to fly. Makes for a very safe AI ship though i guess.

Unfortunately, it's also the most frustrating thing to fight, especially early game. Being an ubiquitous cruiser among pirates doesn't help either. Granted, the last Damper fields changes made it less of a pain to encounter, but still, i really wouldn't mind another kind of defensive system instead of DP for this ship.
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Megas

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Re: Damper Field disables venting hard flux while active
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2018, 09:05:01 AM »

I thought 75% was fine on Centurion because it was not very common and that was the only thing going for it.  It was basically a somewhat more common poor-man's Monitor (style of low offense, high defense).  It might have been annoying, but probably no more so than Fortress Shield on Monitor, and Centurion was not very common (and usually limited to Hegemony fleets).  Once Brawler got it, 75% was too much (on early game AI controlled enemies) because Brawler is somewhat common, and trying to overcome it with an early game fleet was annoying.  66% made it more tolerable against Brawler and still acceptable on Centurion.

I sort of wish we get a new midline frigate that is more offensive like Hammerhead/Falcon/Eagle, although Centurion can evolve into that role (of balanced attacker) with a different system and better turret arcs.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 09:39:01 AM by Megas »
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TheWetFish

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Re: Damper Field disables venting hard flux while active
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2018, 09:23:53 AM »

Interesting replies! 

Both the hard flux dissipation issue and also the degree of damage reduction issue are exacerbated on the Mora, with it's higher venting and heavier armour 

Potentially making the Damper Field damage reduction dependant on hull size is intriguing
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Damper Field disables venting hard flux while active
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2018, 08:06:29 PM »

Interesting replies! 

Both the hard flux dissipation issue and also the degree of damage reduction issue are exacerbated on the Mora, with it's higher venting and heavier armour 

Potentially making the Damper Field damage reduction dependant on hull size is intriguing
It was done is SS+ before IIRC
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Techhead

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Re: Damper Field disables venting hard flux while active
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2018, 10:51:45 PM »

I'm also of the opinion that the Mora's Damper Field nerf really hurt the two frigates that used it. I personally would have hurt the Mora's other defensive abilities first. Various ideas I've had:
  • Giving it worse flux stats so it can't use shield to absorb as much.
  • Straight up hitting the armor rating so it doesn't compound as hard with Damper Field.
  • Giving it either a front shield and/or narrowing the existing shield so it's easier to damage shields-up.
  • Taking the prior to the extreme, removing the shield, and putting Makeshift Shield Generator in stock variants. (Possibly with compsationatory buffs in other areas, such as OP (to afford MSG) or armor.)
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Megas

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Re: Damper Field disables venting hard flux while active
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2018, 06:40:19 AM »

Makeshift Shield Generator hurts top speed, and Mora is already slow without it.

Currently, the penalty is useful because the ships that have it are frigates, and the primary user of those ships is the cowardly enemy AI, not the player.  AI cannot play coward as well with slower ships.

If Mora keeps a Damper Field, it can have a different version that absorbs less than the frigates.  The frigates need their 66%-75% version back.

I like the Mora's defense.  It is the only reason why I bother to bring them instead of only Herons.  Even so, I prefer Heron over Mora, both for flagship and AI.
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TaLaR

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Re: Damper Field disables venting hard flux while active
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2018, 07:48:43 AM »

-snip-

Yeah, as Megas said. That badly nerfed Mora is not worth using - Heron will remain the only real Cruiser sized Carrier.
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