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Author Topic: [0.97a] Mayasuran Navy 11.0.0 RC1  (Read 697744 times)

Retry

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Re: [0.9a] Mayasuran Navy 8.1.9
« Reply #195 on: May 10, 2019, 02:32:21 PM »

Though I do agree that DP is just about the only significant balancing factor late game, that only applies if the DP is adjusted. I just downloaded the current Mayasuran Navy version to test and was able to verify, using Console Commands, that Mayasuran ships do not raise the DP cost of ships with the Mayasuran Prime Warship hullmod as they should.
The attached pictures are proof after using console commands and running SIM that DP cost is unaffected.
Well it kinds of become a significant balancing factor when you maxed out your deployment points. And in the early game it is important too until you can get that money snowball rolling. In mid game though it is indeed irrelevant.
So I realize Tartiflette comment might have been a misunderstanding. What SaphirreSage said is true but had been established earlier in the thread (but not as extensively proven). Is there an established nomenclature which I may have misused about the present subject?
to reiterate:
Supply cost: Cost paid after the battle to recuperate CR (Irrelevant to balance)
Deployment cost: "space" taken by the ship on the deployment screen (Extremely relevant to balance)

So (M) version of normal ship have supply cost penalty but no Deployment cost penalty. This makes them straight upgrade over several vanilla ship.

Now I don't think this it is inherently bad, but it does make the (M) version like an inverse D-Mod. It is a dangerous slope for balance at least. The hull are rare enough that it doesn't matter too much for now at least.

I'd like to note again that this thing with "premium" with overall small buffs at a logistic (but not deployment) cost is not limited to this mod.  SWP has the Cabal variants of many high-tech vessels, and Interstellar Imperium had some sort of elite version of some of their ships, though I don't recall what that hull-mod was called and it could very well change once it gets released for Starsector 0.9.
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Knight Chase

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Re: [0.9.1a] Mayasuran Navy 8.2.0
« Reply #196 on: May 11, 2019, 06:48:19 PM »



8.2.0
-Removed Spoonbill, save breaker
-Added Heron (M)
-Added Orchard Autocannon, Medium High Explosive Ballistic.
-Added Heavy Ion Lance, Large Energy Beam.
-Adjusted Conquest (M)'s frontal medium energy turrets to hybrids.
-Adjusted Launch Speed of Gorgon SRM to 180 from 100, Hitpoints to 230 from 150. Made overall flight characteristics faster: Turn acceleration to 550 from 210. Turn rate to 140 from 70.
-Adjusted Winghead's hybrid mounts to energy for the smalls, rearmost small turrets adjusted to face rearwards and the composite medium mounts adjusted to synergy.
-Adjusted Mokarran's frontal turrets on its head to be energy, adjusted arcs to be more versatile instead of just frontal facing. Frontal medium hardpoints adjusted to ballistic only.
-Adjusted Bomber refit times.

Just a couple new weapons and some more balancing. Spoonbill switched to an actual modernized Heron, should provide a 3 deck carrier with the (M) buffs for bombers.
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eidolad

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Re: [0.9.1a] Mayasuran Navy 8.2.0
« Reply #197 on: May 18, 2019, 08:48:43 AM »

Got me a Winghead and

a) was really excited to possess a cruiser with my fave "Accelerated Ammo Feeder".  OH YES a big hammerhead!

b) ...only to find that the max forward ballistic mounts for it are two mediums.  It is effective but not the storm of fire I was hoping to drop on an enemy.  I suppose I could turn broadside to use the large and medium mounts that are rear facing...am I really supposed to use this beast as a broadsider?  Gotta get me extended shields if that is case...

c) ...however the built-in hullmod "heavy weapons integration" doesn't appear to actually save 10 OP points when I mount a large weapon.

d)  I should say that the number of small energy weapons that the Winghead can bring to bear in the forward arc is really impressive...so as a suppression build it rocks.  It just makes me sad to build around the accelerated ammo feeder...perhaps replace with high energy focus?  Or give it a mobility ship system?


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Hellya

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Re: [0.9.1a] Mayasuran Navy 8.2.0
« Reply #198 on: May 19, 2019, 02:24:04 PM »

Got me a Winghead and

a) was really excited to possess a cruiser with my fave "Accelerated Ammo Feeder".  OH YES a big hammerhead!

b) ...only to find that the max forward ballistic mounts for it are two mediums.  It is effective but not the storm of fire I was hoping to drop on an enemy.  I suppose I could turn broadside to use the large and medium mounts that are rear facing...am I really supposed to use this beast as a broadsider?  Gotta get me extended shields if that is case...

c) ...however the built-in hullmod "heavy weapons integration" doesn't appear to actually save 10 OP points when I mount a large weapon.

d)  I should say that the number of small energy weapons that the Winghead can bring to bear in the forward arc is really impressive...so as a suppression build it rocks.  It just makes me sad to build around the accelerated ammo feeder...perhaps replace with high energy focus?  Or give it a mobility ship system?

It is an odd ship to say the least.

I have not found a use for either the Winghead or the Mokarran. The Mokarran cost 42 OP and delivers a pretty sub par performance I think. Feels like the fire power of a cruiser, with poor shields, meh armour, and speed of a capital. Its armour is kinda meh compared to other poor shield capitals (Onslaught) which is less OP to field and will wreck most ships, the Mokarran for sure.

The Winghead with its main battery facing the back is just strange for firepower/shield facing forward type of ship. It also follows the Mokarran in meh kind of stats. This ships at least has solid armour for its class. Maybe a damage sponge for meathead AI? But why when I can field 1.5 Patriots with high energy focus, omni shields, only 200 less armor, good weapons coverage, and 25 more speed. I am pretty sure the loss of a weird facing large turret is worth it. Even the Apogee would knife fight this thing for fun and do it with less OP.

I am honestly at a loss for both these ships. They just don't make sense to me on why I would field them over what I feel are way better options. I would field and Conquest or an Arjuna way before the Mokarran, we all know the conquest is not the cream of the crop. As mentioned, I would field a Patriot, Apogee or Sarrisa way before the Winghead.

I might be being a tad hard on these two ships but I honestly just don't see the point of either.
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Knight Chase

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Re: [0.9.1a] Mayasuran Navy 8.2.0
« Reply #199 on: May 19, 2019, 08:58:12 PM »

Got me a Winghead and

a) was really excited to possess a cruiser with my fave "Accelerated Ammo Feeder".  OH YES a big hammerhead!

b) ...only to find that the max forward ballistic mounts for it are two mediums.  It is effective but not the storm of fire I was hoping to drop on an enemy.  I suppose I could turn broadside to use the large and medium mounts that are rear facing...am I really supposed to use this beast as a broadsider?  Gotta get me extended shields if that is case...

c) ...however the built-in hullmod "heavy weapons integration" doesn't appear to actually save 10 OP points when I mount a large weapon.

d)  I should say that the number of small energy weapons that the Winghead can bring to bear in the forward arc is really impressive...so as a suppression build it rocks.  It just makes me sad to build around the accelerated ammo feeder...perhaps replace with high energy focus?  Or give it a mobility ship system?

It is an odd ship to say the least.

I have not found a use for either the Winghead or the Mokarran. The Mokarran cost 42 OP and delivers a pretty sub par performance I think. Feels like the fire power of a cruiser, with poor shields, meh armour, and speed of a capital. Its armour is kinda meh compared to other poor shield capitals (Onslaught) which is less OP to field and will wreck most ships, the Mokarran for sure.

The Winghead with its main battery facing the back is just strange for firepower/shield facing forward type of ship. It also follows the Mokarran in meh kind of stats. This ships at least has solid armour for its class. Maybe a damage sponge for meathead AI? But why when I can field 1.5 Patriots with high energy focus, omni shields, only 200 less armor, good weapons coverage, and 25 more speed. I am pretty sure the loss of a weird facing large turret is worth it. Even the Apogee would knife fight this thing for fun and do it with less OP.

I am honestly at a loss for both these ships. They just don't make sense to me on why I would field them over what I feel are way better options. I would field and Conquest or an Arjuna way before the Mokarran, we all know the conquest is not the cream of the crop. As mentioned, I would field a Patriot, Apogee or Sarrisa way before the Winghead.

I might be being a tad hard on these two ships but I honestly just don't see the point of either.
The Mokarran was much better in the past.
Here is the list of changes I've made since 0.8, though I've come to see that they might not be the best.
Mokarran vs Mokarran 0.9
315 OP
Top speeed 55->40
acceleration 25->20
deceleration 20->15
Max turn rate 8->6
turn acceleration 6->4
shield arc 300->90
shield efficiency 1.0->1.2
frontal medium ballistic turrets -> frontal medium energy turrets
frontal hybrid smalls -> frontal energy smalls
frontal mediuim composites -> frontal medium ballistics
frontal large composite -> frontal ballistic composite
As for the Winghead, it had four converging medium ballistics along with 5 hybrid smalls that could also fire forward. In combination with AAF, it shredded a lot of targets, so I'm thinking of switching everything on the head of the Winghead to ballistic and going back to the original configuration of two synergy/two composite medium hardpoints and a hybrid small turret up front.

This is very insightful, so thank you for the feedback!

Edit:
Here are my proposed changes, this should turn the Mokarran back into its 0.8 form with a couple minor changes.
-Mokarran buffs to speed and manuverability, firepower, defense.
Top speed 40->50
Acceleration 20->25
Max turn rate 6->8
Turn acceleration 4->6
Shield Arc 90->270
Shield efficiency 1.2->1.1
Frontal medium energy turrets -> frontal medium ballistic turrets
frontal energy small turrets -> frontal hybrid small trurets
frontal medium ballistic hardpoints -> frontal medium composite hardpoints
I've done some testing with these changes and I'm sure it will more than deserve that 42 DP spot.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 09:29:20 PM by Knight Chase »
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Re: [0.9.1a] Mayasuran Navy 8.2.0
« Reply #200 on: May 19, 2019, 10:00:10 PM »

Knight, those changes look very interesting and not too OP. I cant wait to test that out when it hits download.

Your mod is a must have for me on every play through. I love the style and mix of everything.
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Knight Chase

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Re: [0.9.1a] Mayasuran Navy 8.2.0
« Reply #201 on: May 20, 2019, 02:08:41 AM »

Go ahead and redownload, the changes are up.

8.2.0 RC2
-Mokarran buffs to speed and manuverability, firepower, defense.
Top speed 40->50
Acceleration 20->25
Max turn rate 6->8
Turn acceleration 4->6
Shield Arc 90->270
Shield efficiency 1.2->1.1
Frontal medium energy turrets -> frontal medium ballistic turrets
frontal energy small turrets -> frontal hybrid small trurets
frontal medium ballistic hardpoints -> frontal medium composite hardpoints
-Winghead mounts change
Frontal synergy hardpoints changed to composite.
Rear large turret changed to 360 arc.
Rear large turret changed to energy from hybrid.
-Orchard Cannon changes
Damage 220->100
Flux Cost 270->160
OP 12->10
Added experimental trails, requires magiclib.

Edit: Final changes for now. This makes the Winghead the premier heavy cruiser.
8.2.0 RC3
-Winghead was maybe a bit overtuned with AAF, this change will tone it down
DP and supplies per month 24->30
Accelerated ammo feeder -> infernium burn

Edit 2: Final patch for today I hope.
8.2.0 RC4
-Orchard Cannon changes, this should let you burst more often with the first two barrages, however firing for the third burst will have great innaccuruacy.
Removed ammo system completely
Spread shot 5->3
Flux shot 160->140
-Javanicus M sprite change
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 11:02:05 AM by Knight Chase »
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Re: [0.9.1a] Mayasuran Navy 8.2.0 RC2
« Reply #202 on: May 20, 2019, 10:10:23 AM »

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Knight Chase

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Hellya

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Re: [0.9.1a] Mayasuran Navy 8.2.0 RC4
« Reply #204 on: May 20, 2019, 01:06:45 PM »

So far, things seem quite balanced for their DP.

At first I thought 30 for the Winghead would be so high. But that versatility and movement makes up for it. Tested it against everything 25 DP and up. It struggles (evenly) with the Aurora and that makes sense. It can keep a Dominator at a distance and engage it at its own terms, yet engaging it frontally in an all out knife fight is death. Not a quick death but not a great move.

The Mokarran is filling a roll that I really like. Not a hard core knife fighting tank per se, more like the conquest in that it can bring it but only for a short while before the damage taken is too great. I see this playing a big role in my fleets and will replace the Java as my personal ship. I would say that it is very close to where it should be as it is easy enough to overwhelm but strong enough and fast enough to use an opening to its advantage.

I am going to run a campaign from start to finish and see how everything feels.
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eidolad

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Re: [0.9.1a] Mayasuran Navy 8.2.0 RC4
« Reply #205 on: May 20, 2019, 04:24:38 PM »

OOOOOOH thanks the Winghead changes sound divine...new mod version made my next-game list! 
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solardawning

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Re: [0.9.1a] Mayasuran Navy 8.2.0 RC4
« Reply #206 on: May 20, 2019, 07:22:24 PM »

@knight chase:
FYI, you've still got empty arrays in your .faction files.

Check the Persean League and Hegemony ones. Things like this:
Code
   "hullFrequency":{
        "tags":{
        },
        "hulls":{
        },
    },

Those empty arrays replace those from vanilla and other mods, instead of adding.
So by including them, you empty out many of the things those factions should have in their fleets and market.
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Knight Chase

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Re: [0.9.1a] Mayasuran Navy 8.2.0 RC4
« Reply #207 on: May 20, 2019, 08:01:36 PM »

@knight chase:
FYI, you've still got empty arrays in your .faction files.

Check the Persean League and Hegemony ones. Things like this:
Code
   "hullFrequency":{
        "tags":{
        },
        "hulls":{
        },
    },

Those empty arrays replace those from vanilla and other mods, instead of adding.
So by including them, you empty out many of the things those factions should have in their fleets and market.

Alright, this should be my last patch of the day. We're on RC5 now, so this should be the final final fix. Go ahead and redownload.
8.2.0 RC5
-Fixed empty arrays in the .faction files
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 01:52:49 AM by Knight Chase »
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Hellya

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Re: [0.9.1a] Mayasuran Navy 8.2.0 RC5
« Reply #208 on: May 21, 2019, 04:56:14 PM »

Thanks for the updates!
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eidolad

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Re: [0.9.1a] Mayasuran Navy 8.2.0 RC5
« Reply #209 on: May 23, 2019, 07:01:26 PM »

OK who has tried a Nexerelin playthrough as member of Mayasuran Navy?   Any interesting to report?  This is also one of my game starts on my list for 0.9.1a I must admit...
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