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Author Topic: [0.97a] Mayasuran Navy 11.0.0 RC1  (Read 697530 times)

ThePollie

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Re: [0.9a] Mayasuran Navy 8.1.9
« Reply #165 on: April 22, 2019, 04:15:17 PM »

Might be the part where I've seen countless allied ships either burn into suicidal situations and die having accomplished nothing, or be in prime spots TO burn and then decide to slog it as the slowest speed possible.

I'd rather a flare launcher. At least it's inconsistent but free-use PD. Hell, I'd rather an option to just disable systems entirely. At least then I don't have to worry about my fleet deciding to kill themselves because they can't grasp the most basic tactics. My favourite sight is the ship I just bought deciding to burn drive into a force armed with torpedoes, who are plenty intelligent enough to fire them at the predictably moving, unshielded target.

But what do I know. I'm just an angry 14-16 year old who hates anything remotely not-perfect.
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ThePollie

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Re: [0.9a] Mayasuran Navy 8.1.9
« Reply #166 on: April 22, 2019, 07:37:21 PM »

Yeah. That's why my criticism of the mod content was put in the mod thread.

Assuming you're intelligent is way too generous an option.
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Avanitia

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Re: [0.9a] Mayasuran Navy 8.1.9
« Reply #167 on: April 22, 2019, 08:35:07 PM »

Can you post the loadouts you've been using for Manta and Manta (M)?

I've never had a big issue with it outside of occasional AI deep which resulted in it being heavily damaged, AI makes mistakes, just like player - I don't have an issue with that, would be pretty boring if it didn't make them.

Loadout I use with both Manta and Manta(M):
2x Ion Cannon in small energy hardpoints
2x railguns in small turrets with frontal arcs
2x vulcans in small turrets covering the engines
1x burst pd or other weapon I see fit in the turret in the back with very large arc.
For fighters - Broadswords or Claws.
Hullmods - Resistant Flux Conduits, maybe something else
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AxleMC131

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Re: [0.9a] Mayasuran Navy 8.1.9
« Reply #168 on: April 22, 2019, 11:28:14 PM »

Since you flatly refuse to carry the Manta discussion over to Disassemble Reassemble's thread - cos, really, the Manta (M) is better than the regular one in basically all regards (I was shown its stats last night, and the only worse one was the higher supply cost) - I guess I'll post some Manta feedback here. Apologies in advance to Knight Chase.



Just gonna get one thing out of the way first: Why do you compare the Manta to a Falcon? The Falcon is a CRUISER. Sure, a light cruiser. But the Manta is a light destroyer for all intents and purposes. You can't complain that the Manta is worse than the Falcon because... well... it is. As it should be. You're comparing a destroyer to a cruiser. ??? Please don't do this if you ever want to hear a sensible reaction.

Now then.

The overshadowed “third wheel” of the Hammerhead and Sunder rivalry, the slippery Manta is a midline destroyer that can leave most frigates eating its wake. The ship is comparable to its heavier cousins by its wide shield and middling logistical stats, but differs with its focus on lighter weaponry and a more powerful engine assembly. The Manta's gun mounts are undersized if versatile, but it has the ability to support a wing of fighter craft which amplify its combat potential tenfold. The fast destroyer is let down by relatively low integrity, and a tendency to outrun its own fighters when it activates its burn drive.

The Manta is a "fast destroyer", but is really just a light destroyer with a mobility system and higher-than-normal burn speed. You might try comparing it to the Shrike, the high-tech light destroyer. Both the ships have high base speeds, aggressive mobility systems, and fragile hulls. While the Shrike totes a classic high-tech flux grid and good weapon mounts to make use of it, the Manta has only a few small mounts, but it actually maintains a standard destroyer flux capacity for them. It works well with expensive weapons like Antimatter Blasters.

The Manta also has a fighter bay. That makes it kinda powerful, and also very versatile. Granted it lends itself to fast fighters, but what's wrong with them? The Manta can't really put up much of a punch on its own (unless you slap on Antimatter Blasters of course), but can easily augment its weaponry with launched fighters.

With a high base speed and a Burn Drive on top of it, AND a wing of fighters, the Manta is highly adept at catching enemy destroyers and frigates, pouncing from a decent distance, perhaps even using its fighters to lock a target down in prelude to burning in. It has the shield and flux handling to make a meal of small targets, and enough armour underneath to absorb a little punishment from something a bit bigger if it needs to drop shields for more firepower. Let's not forget also that a fighter bay means it can sacrifice personal PD weaponry in favour of full offensive weapons, if it chooses to equip an interceptor like Talons (or the Honeybee from the same mod).

Against bigger targets? You're not going to have much luck outside of kiting and harrassing, and with a system like Burn Drive, that's not hugely great for the Manta to be doing. It doesn't have the punch to deal damage to anything bigger, and its speed becomes less useful against slower and slower targets. The Manta is in its element in smaller fleets as a secondary destroyer, or medium fleets as a pursuit vessel. Or, very small fleets as a player flagship. Have you tried piloting one against some pirate frigs? It's a blast, seriously.

Finally, do you actually have a problem with the Manta? Or do you just have a problem with the Burn Drive? Because neither me nor Chase can do anything about that. As Soren says, if you have a problem with the base game, go whinge to Alex, not us modders.



Btw, just in case you didn't know - but I'm guessing you did because this entire "feedback" block feels like targetted negative - the Manta is one of DaRa's most popular ships. :D Sorry it doesn't work for you, but hey, I can't make everyone happy.
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ThePollie

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Re: [0.9a] Mayasuran Navy 8.1.9
« Reply #169 on: April 23, 2019, 06:01:32 AM »

First, my discussion was about the Mayasuran Manta, not the DR Manta.

Second, I don't expect a destroyer to out-shoot a cruiser, that'd be silly. But it's a little off-putting when the destroyer losing overwhelmingly to a cruiser that also has little difficulty catching it. The Falcon ought to out-shoot a destroyer, even if not by the widest margin. But I don't think a light destroyer should be so easily caught by one.

The Manta mostly lends itself to fast fighters because slow bombers are, honestly, over-tuned on OP for the already OP strained ship. Thunder interceptors are my usual go-to choice, since they are both cheap and multi-role, providing kinetic damage to stress shields and EMP to disable targets -Since, honestly, the Manta is way too fragile to receive return fire.

High base speed? It's 100, compared to the Hammerhead's 90 and Lasher's 120. Two examples I use because they're both fairly common but also both ships that I find often out-fight the Manta. In a straight fight, neither ship generally fail to overpower a Manta. Hence why I like Thunders. A quick EMP on engines and guns will ensure the Manta's paper-thin defense doesn't become the deciding factor. Even still, I've quickly become a fan of Unstable Injectors to better negate that. I haven't been fond of the module in the past, since I generally go with Safety Overrides if I want speed - or simply a faster ship - but it's unbelievably frustrating to watch a Lasher drop his autoloader and steamroll a Manta, who simply can not disengage.

The Infernium Drive is nice, but I find the AI too willing to use it on cooldown to get around the map. I've had similar issue with vanilla Shrikes and Dassault Vespers, and they often get into an engagement without it ready and suffer for it.

I also haven't found much of a need for PD on the Manta. The engines are incredibly well protected. I find Salamanders and the like don't seem programmed to target the actual engines and often just hit the tail, failing entirely to do anything meaningful.

Frankly, I have an issue with both. The Burn Drive is an obnoxious ship system. If it at least had some sort of marker to tell you where you'd be when it ends, I might like it more. But honestly, I can't count the times I've easily slagged otherwise durable enemies because I caught them mid-burn and can freely dump damage into them while they're powerless to deploy shields or change facing. For the Manta, it often feels starved for OP and weapon mounts. The two nose Energy mounts are awkward to fit, and I often leave them bare for the OP. Thunder Interceptors or Broadswords are common flights, since they're OP-lax and effective at plugging gaps in the ship's onboard weapons, which I usually fit two light-dual autocannons and either an EMP cannon or a light assault gun. Unstable Injector, Aux' thrusters - unless I can get a captain with Evasive maneuvers. The rest in vent/caps, favouring the former.

The ship comes across as an awkward thing. It feels designed to only be used very early, where it should only encounter heavily D-modded pirate frigates, but at the same time is incredibly rare to actually find, so generally isn't found early on. The last time I had found a Manta was after I'd already set up two colonies. But by then I have a Victory and four Wingheads, with three Herons supporting, and four Alastors and Wrens with Unstable Injectors as pursuit craft. Where does the Manta fit in there?
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lethargie

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Re: [0.9a] Mayasuran Navy 8.1.9
« Reply #170 on: April 24, 2019, 10:01:29 AM »

ThePollie comments betray a profound lack of understanding of starsector gameplay and proper respect, but they do hint at a slight problems I have noticed about mayasuran modified ship. The hit to deployment point cost is far too big for what they provide. Remember that deployment cost is the only thing that set the "value" of a ship. Both the (M) Hammerhead and sunder get +2 (or was it +3) DP. This should give them a roughtly 20% edge on their normal cousin. The Manta (M) at 11 DP should compete with the normal Sunder/drover yet fail to do so, mostly due to to the very small amount of points it gets for equipment. A sunder with converted hangar still got 20 points more than a manta for the same number of DP. The flexibility of the manta (speed, fighter, weapon together) does have a cost however and therefore it can find some place in a fleet.

It does get really bad with other ship however. For the same DP as a falcon an Argentavis got the exact same stats or inferior. The lesser cost of campaign hullmod (because its a destroyer) is offset by the 20 less points it has for equipment and the shorter range it can get. Is the drone system good enough to justify taking it over a ship that has the same value yet is superiors in many way (flux, speed, range, armor)? I am not convinced. Now slightly inferior ship of the same cost is nothing to worry about. But the (M) version of falcon and Argentavis has some real problem. A 30% increase in deployment cost for almost negligible improvement is one of the rare obvious balance problem I have encountered with the mod.

As far as sprite and ship goes however, this mod is great. They all look cool, and the unique ship are fun to play with. Lots of polish in the general presentation. General balance is preserved as while some ship are inferiors none are obviously superior to vanilla. The theme fits well with the lore.
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Igncom1

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Re: [0.9a] Mayasuran Navy 8.1.9
« Reply #171 on: April 24, 2019, 10:18:35 AM »

Yeah I love this mod myself. It fit's so well with vanilla.
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Sunders are the best ship in the game.

ThePollie

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Re: [0.9a] Mayasuran Navy 8.1.9
« Reply #172 on: April 24, 2019, 10:31:57 AM »

General balance is preserved as while some ship are inferiors none are obviously superior to vanilla. The theme fits well with the lore.

I wouldn't say that. There is a point where certain Marasuran ships are flat upgrades. The only real "issue" is the increased logistics cost, but when you're rolling three Atlases and twenty million credits, you stop caring about that, and the advantages of the Hammerhead over the base model is all that matters. That extra armour and rear twin-flak are nice.

Though the irony of saying I lack "proper" respect is not surprising, coming from this community.
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Gotcha!

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Re: [0.9a] Mayasuran Navy 8.1.9
« Reply #173 on: April 24, 2019, 11:53:53 AM »

This is looking very good! I especially like the big carrier.
Midline ships are my favourite and I pity the lack of big midline carriers in the game.
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Tufted Titmouse

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Re: [0.9a] Mayasuran Navy 8.1.9
« Reply #174 on: April 24, 2019, 12:17:54 PM »

Mod's pretty great! I can't wait to see what's coming down the pipe. Personally, the Mokorran's my favorite ship from this mod, The Arjuna's a close second.
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Avanitia

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Re: [0.9a] Mayasuran Navy 8.1.9
« Reply #175 on: April 24, 2019, 12:24:22 PM »

This is looking very good! I especially like the big carrier.
Midline ships are my favourite and I pity the lack of big midline carriers in the game.

Arjuna's system is pretty good.

I like the Sarissa - pretty fun as flagship, especially when I mix the weapons with fighters dealing kinetic damage, such as Broadswords or Longbows.
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AxleMC131

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Re: [0.9a] Mayasuran Navy 8.1.9
« Reply #176 on: April 24, 2019, 02:38:27 PM »

Somehow I just can't comprehend how someone could have a problem with the Manta (M) underperforming, but not with the base one, when the Manta (M) is blatantly more powerful.  ??? But hey, what do I know? I've only seen the Manta (M)'s stat card, not used it in battle.

RE uses of the Manta late-game: Alternate pursuit vessel. It's got the speed and guns of a frigate, coupled with the hull integrity and flux grid of a light destroyer, plus a fighter bay. Treat it like a frigate, not a destroyer, if it helps. The only downside is that you can't deploy it from the sides of a fight.

(100 speed is as high as pilotable destroyers go in vanilla, with or without a mobility system. It's not slow.)
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ThePollie

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Re: [0.9a] Mayasuran Navy 8.1.9
« Reply #177 on: April 24, 2019, 04:50:41 PM »

Slow is relative. 100 might be enough to ensure a 90 speed ship can't escape you, but it that's irrelevant if he can kill you in the time it takes for that 10 difference to get you in range to fire on him. You could burn toward him, but now that's one less option for a disengage if this suddenly one-eighties, and god knows the AI isn't the best at deciding these things.

The M variant is infinitely better, I'm not arguing that. Just that the AI doens't seem to grasp how best to wield it, and it feels like I'm just burning money whenever I opt not to personally fly it. My hands, I stalked the flanks and pounced on isolated Condors and Drovers, making their lives hell as their escorts struggle either to catch or out-fight me. In the AI hands? I routinely see them act like they're a Dominator and go full-bore into the thick of it and get vaporized by legitimately beefy ships.

As a pursuit ship, I generally prefer Wrens and Alastors. Besides being faster and better able to catch prey, they are cheaper and easier to deploy en-masse, which is a force multiplier, and they have more rapid action capacity with missile-fitted mounts. An Alastor with a twin railguns, a reaper and extended racks, with an aggressive captain can easily blitz even heavier destroyers and trashcan them. Sure, they're garbage for extended fights, but I only need them to be a monster for thirty seconds to run down fleeing ships.

For what it is, the Manta is alright, it just feels like it's trying to do more than it ought to, and it just results in a jack-of-all-trades, and I'd really rather just bring a specialist I know will do the job I gave it, rather than send a Manta and hope doesn't fall short. I do love it as an early game flagship, though. I think it shines in small-unit engagements where most of my opponents are D-modded to hell, often are forced to duel their target without hope of getting relieved, and where their single flight deck isn't being swept by massed-PD coming from half a dozen cruisers and carriers.

It's just that isn't a part of the game that lasts very long, and I often wind up settling a colony before I ever find a Manta to even use, even when I'm willing to shell out the cash to buy a pristine model somewhere.
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lethargie

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Re: [0.9a] Mayasuran Navy 8.1.9
« Reply #178 on: April 24, 2019, 07:18:11 PM »


I wouldn't say that. There is a point where certain Marasuran ships are flat upgrades. The only real "issue" is the increased logistics cost, but when you're rolling three Atlases and twenty million credits, you stop caring about that, and the advantages of the Hammerhead over the base model is all that matters. That extra armour and rear twin-flak are nice.


... The extra logistic cost is precisely why the mayasuran ship are quite inferior to their vanilla equivalent. Not because it cost too much, but because it directly limit the number of ship you can bring in a battle. If you were to field only hammerhead you could sent 10 vanilla ship for every 8 mayasuran one (if i remember well the cost of 10 deployment point for the (m) ship). Now it might certainly be argued that loosing 20% of your fleet number is worth the small increase in flux/armor but it simply isn't a "flat upgrade". No matter the amount of resource you have, deployment cost is all that matter if you can fill your side of the battle. Its the very reason why a 60 deployment cost hammerhead would be useless even if you had infinite supply.

Somehow I just can't comprehend how someone could have a problem with the Manta (M) underperforming, but not with the base one, when the Manta (M) is blatantly more powerful.  ??? But hey, what do I know? I've only seen the Manta (M)'s stat card, not used it in battle.

the stats card says it all if you read it. 3 extra deployment point for negligible gain. This is a dealbraker for anyone that remotely care about optimizing a fleet. Its not so bad if you don't fill your side of the battle however.
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AxleMC131

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Re: [0.9a] Mayasuran Navy 8.1.9
« Reply #179 on: April 24, 2019, 07:54:12 PM »

If you don't mind the Manta in its element (early game and small fleets), what are you complaining about then? I don't think I'm following anymore. If you're positive the problem is confined to just the Manta (M), then what might you recommend to fix it? (If the problem extends to the regular Manta, same question, but please reply in DaRa's thread.)

Quote
Is it intended for the Manta to have no real niche in a fleet? As it stands, it just feels like a weak carrier someone tried last minute to make into a destroyer, that's pretending to be a frigate.

It's not fast, it's not durable, the firepower is laughable, and there's no reason to ever pick this thing over a carrier if I want strike craft. Everytime I try to use this thing, it gets bulldozed by anything that catches it - which is most things. I think it's legitimately the only purpose-built destroyer that gets *** on by frigates. At least the Hammerhead can take a hit and give it back.

All I can say is "Well now you know its niche in a fleet." Satisfied?



@lethargie Perhaps, but from what I've seen of the stat buffs, I'd say it's worth it. You get a lot of extra armour and flux handling. And it's only +2 deployment points btw; regular Manta is 9. That price is mostly to account for the fighter bay, since carriers are still very powerful, and since the (M) version gives it a fighter buff too (if an indirect one), I think the price increase is deserved.
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