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Starsector 0.9.1a is out! (05/10/19); Blog post: Personal Contacts (08/13/20)

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Author Topic: [0.9.1a] Mayasuran Navy 8.3.0 RC2  (Read 221744 times)

Drazhya

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Re: [0.9.1a] Mayasuran Navy 8.2.9 RC3
« Reply #345 on: April 27, 2020, 09:07:10 AM »

When I use the Javanicus(SR) it has unlimited and instant replenishment of all fighter squadrons, including bombers. Furthermore, after using it once, every single carrier in my fleet gets the same effect until I reload the game. While sitting in an Onslaught's face with an otherwise-stripped-bare Javanicus(SR) and waiting for my Myrmidon bombers to kill him is funny, I get the feeling this isn't intended.

...I suppose it's worth mentioning that I've only seen this in simulations. I'm not really inclined to bring it into a real fight.
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Knight Chase

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Re: [0.9.1a] Mayasuran Navy 8.2.9 RC3
« Reply #346 on: April 27, 2020, 12:53:40 PM »

When I use the Javanicus(SR) it has unlimited and instant replenishment of all fighter squadrons, including bombers. Furthermore, after using it once, every single carrier in my fleet gets the same effect until I reload the game. While sitting in an Onslaught's face with an otherwise-stripped-bare Javanicus(SR) and waiting for my Myrmidon bombers to kill him is funny, I get the feeling this isn't intended.

...I suppose it's worth mentioning that I've only seen this in simulations. I'm not really inclined to bring it into a real fight.
You will have to bring this up with Vayra, as I don't control the Stormhawk hullmod.
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Knight Chase

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Re: [0.9.1a] Mayasuran Navy 8.2.9 RC4
« Reply #347 on: April 29, 2020, 03:17:35 AM »

Yo, new update. This one is just in preparation for the tournament in a few weeks. It is also compatible with saves if you have 8.2.9 of Mayasura still. Make sure to remove your current download by deleting the folder first then extracting the new archive.

8.2.9 RC4
-Arjuna sprite changes
-Added script to let you keep governorship of Mairaath even after losing it.
However, this only works if Mayasura as a faction has another planet/station besides Mairaath, otherwise you lose governorship forever.
-Changed Onocrotalus/Orchard projectile color
-Changed Gorgon SRM to mayasura_wp_bp (from base_bp)
-Changed Arbalest Battery to mayasura_wp_bp (from base_bp)
-Added Mayasuran Weapon Blueprint Package
-Changed Arjuna's universal mounts to ballistics.
-Added new ship system, capital jets
-Adjusted Javanicus' Acceleration stats to be lower, and thus slower.
-Adjusted Javanicus' Dissipation to 1200 (From 1300)
-Adjusted Javanicus' PPT to 600 seconds (From 720)
-Switched Javanicus' ship system from maneuevering jets to capital jets
These changes will bring the Javanicus more in line and less nimble.

-Raised Nebulosa's price to 300000 (From 230k)
-Raised Nebulosa's DP to 38 (From 36)
-Raised Javanicus' Price to 420000 (From 350k)
-Raised Mokarran's Price to 330000 (From 300k)
-Raised Mokarran's DP/maintenance to 45 (From 42)
This will match the Oddyssey in terms of pricing/DP
-Raised Arjuna's Price to 380000 (From 330k)
This is inbetween the Astral and Legion in terms of pricing.

-Raised Price of Sipahi to 8000 (From 7000)
-Raised Didymoi Price to 14000 (From 11000)
-Raised Khopesh (M) Price to 11000 (From 9000)
-Lowered Stormbreaker Price to 8000 (From 10000)
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SukmaZaki

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Re: [0.9.1a] Mayasuran Navy 8.2.9 RC4
« Reply #348 on: April 29, 2020, 04:31:58 AM »

I'm from Java Island, Indonesia, reading those name in the ships and weapons somehow feel odd but in good way  :D :D ;)
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Vivelaraclette

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Re: [0.9.1a] Mayasuran Navy 8.2.9 RC4
« Reply #349 on: May 07, 2020, 04:54:47 AM »

Hello Knight,

Amazing mod, a permanent addition to my games !
I would like to know how to unlock the mayasuran elite guard HQ for player owned Mairaath, even with console command adding of "elitemayasuranguard" it seems to be locked only for Mayasura.
Is it something easy to change in the files ? I looked in it but was not sure.

Thanks and regards,
Raclette
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DreXav

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Re: [0.9.1a] Mayasuran Navy 8.2.9 RC4
« Reply #350 on: May 08, 2020, 04:51:34 PM »

Mayasuran Navy is hands down one of my favorite mods - it fits so well into the game that it could have been vanilla :) Great quality sprites, interesting and quite thoughtful variety. Their story grips my heart and I'm rooting for them every campaign.

That being said, I have played with their ships in various combinations from a light raider duty with few destroyers and fighters to full blown 30+ Mayasura-only fleet; here is some feedback based on my experience:

Mayasuran strong points:
- Consistent style, love the hammer-head styled ships, so well done
- Great variety of fighters and bombers
- Great variety of ship roles, solid core with lot of niche ships to choose from
- Lot of high mobility (heavy) ships
- Decent shield and armor values
- Generous amount of OP on Navy ships


Mayasuran weak points:
- Very poor selection of dedicated carriers to utilize its impressive repertoire of fighters and bombers
- Has very few weapons of its own, uses too many of Common weak weapons, is too dependant on player acquiring blueprints of other factions' weaponry
- Lot of the niche ships simply fail to pull their weight (some with awkward slots): Arjuna, Nebulosa, Excalibur, Sarissa, Stingray, Vigilance, Perryi, Peltast, Argentavis
- Variety of frigates feels a bit crowded considering how little impact they have, I couldn't really see their differences mattering enough


Some specific ship impression:
Capitals
Nebulosa - it has built-in frontal weapon but everything else is split between broadsides that lacks firepower and has some very awkward slot placements, see my commentary on the screen https://i.imgur.com/6WHpVrJ.png
AI is confused how to use it at all and player has no incentive to pilot it at all, its just too weak and awkward.


Mokarran (M)- I love this ship's style and utility. Has very good slots and angles, perfect balance between offense and defense paired up with decent mobility makes it a great flanking battleship. My fleet can always rely on it, provided I use decent weapons and none of that common trash AI loves to fit on its Mokarrans.

Javanicus (M) - this is a tough nut. Its Paladin PD seems totally broken but without it, theres serious lack of both firepower and mobility to threaten or finish off enemy ships. Paladin PD on the other hand decimates entire fighter/missile swarms and probably has bugged numbers in Combat Analytics, its just crazy: https://i.imgur.com/q8EyP7d.png
I do love watching Paladin fire, though. Overall I wish it had either more firepower (after fixing Paladin) or staying power with some kind of damage mitigating system.


Arjuna - is my biggest disappointment in this mod. I expected a dedicated carrier to utilize all the faction fighters, instead I got really awkward ship that is coming short in every category that matters: very little firepower , built-in weapon overloads the ship with little to show for it despite huge range, a joke of ship system that doesn't help any of its roles as carrier, capital and siege weapon. No firepower and only 4 fighter bays at 50 DP. Would need a major overhaul to justify fielding it.

Mithuna - is alright as a niche flagship for exploration, but combat is not its forte and its outshined by alternatives.

Conqueror (M) - is good as far as conquerors go, the flux and armor buff is what the ship needed. AI struggles with making Conquerors in general, but I had fun piloting it thanks to the generous flux dissipation and OP pool. Nothing wrong with the ship as it is, just AI can't handle broadsiding tactics.

Cruisers
Winghead (M) - my favorite ship in the mod and staple of my fleets: huge speed bursts allows it to relocate fast and run down any ship, you can get its shields to be very efficient, very good firepower for a chaser. Paired with its big brother Mokarran they make a formidable flanking force. The navy variant has a generous OP pool, maybe tad too much as I never felt I had to make any sacrifices when fitting it out

Moa (M) - pretty balanced cruiser to stiffen the central defense with while flanks push down. It could use a base speed boost though as I found it struggling to keep up with capitals and later disengage when needed.

Patriot (M) - is a cheap DP filler that actually competes with destroyers for slots on battle, I found it a competent harasser used to back up flanking force.

Sarissa - a mediocre ship at best, Sarissa does nothing to fix it the Mayasuran lack of good carriers, having only two hangar bays and non-fighter buffing ship system. Its slow and there are far better choices out there. Buff base speed a bit and maybe throw in extra hangar slot for +5 DP?

Herron (M) - the band-aid fix for Mayasuran carrier troubles, its relatively cheap and fast, but has no firepower and little defense due too few OP to fit anything besides fighters.

Excalibur - looks cool but ultimately a curiosity at best due its lackluster performance. Maybe buff its built-in weapon to deal extra damage to capital ships to style it like the anti-capital Ion Frigate from Homeworld series? Onslaught slayer!

Destroyers
Hammerhead (M) - looks great but its still the ol' weak Hammerhead. Little firepower and like most destroyers, it melts in fights with cruisers and capitals.

Sunder (M) - overloads fast, very fragile with terrible shields. There's zero reason to bring it into fight as you are better off with Patriot. Could use a buff to flux capacity and maybe a tweaked ship system - 1.5x firepower instead 2.0x but also lower energy flux use by 30%?

Stingray - has no utility beyond fighters, which it doesn't even buff. Might as well take the Herron.

Argentavis - I really want to like this ship but a very slow destroyer with no mobility/damage mitigation systems is just a shortlived piƱata. Melts fast under pressure and cannot disengage in time. Costly for what it is, a Patriot for same cost is tankier, faster and deadlier. Would redesign it as smaller brother of Moa, buff speed and swap the drone for Moa's super shield system so it can act as a nimble bait.

Manta (M) - papermache ship thats a waste of points. Got no ideas how to salvage it.

Frigates
Nightingale - the only frigate I could give a green light. Very fast, best used to cap control points and distract enemies.

The rest of frigates: they die very fast and their weak performance seemed uniform despite variety.

Fighters and bombers

Crossbow - I found this to be the king of all fighters as a few wings can easily live through PD fire, enemy interceptors, decimate entire capitals and still be alive to harass its next prey. Potentially too strong when massed?

Ferox - plasma bombers are cool but its expensive and outshined by Crossbow.

Joker - is waste of system on Arjuna, as its host ship rarely gets in range for Joker to fire, nor it can defend Arjuna against anything, including other fighters.

Viper - it struggles to counter enemy fighters, possibly due low numbers per wing. Maybe increase to 3?

Khopesh - good ol' Khopesh is decent when massed.

As a closing note, I think the priority is getting dedicated carriers and faction weapons that specialize better than the generic guns.

EDIT: Oh yea, it could use a few more markets so it can put up a fight. Maybe absorb the Stormhawks idea and have some military camps on fringes? (Would save us from Stormhawk lagfest :D)
« Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 05:01:56 PM by DreXav »
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MesoTroniK

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Re: [0.9.1a] Mayasuran Navy 8.2.9 RC4
« Reply #351 on: May 08, 2020, 08:17:30 PM »

Paladin PD on the other hand decimates entire fighter/missile swarms and probably has bugged numbers in Combat Analytics, its just crazy: https://i.imgur.com/q8EyP7d.png
Combat Analytics is bugged and will feed you misinformation regarding many things... And its issues are impossible to fix, thus it creates a wilderness of mirrors.

DreXav

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Re: [0.9.1a] Mayasuran Navy 8.2.9 RC4
« Reply #352 on: May 09, 2020, 05:20:49 AM »

Paladin PD on the other hand decimates entire fighter/missile swarms and probably has bugged numbers in Combat Analytics, its just crazy: https://i.imgur.com/q8EyP7d.png
Combat Analytics is bugged and will feed you misinformation regarding many things... And its issues are impossible to fix, thus it creates a wilderness of mirrors.
Yeah, I figured those numbers must be bugged even if it DOES decimate all missiles and fighters.
I just wish I understood what it bugs out with so I could somewhat adjust interpretation of the results
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dead_hand

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Re: [0.9.1a] Mayasuran Navy 8.2.9 RC4
« Reply #353 on: May 09, 2020, 05:47:00 AM »

Paladin PD on the other hand decimates entire fighter/missile swarms and probably has bugged numbers in Combat Analytics, its just crazy: https://i.imgur.com/q8EyP7d.png
Combat Analytics is bugged and will feed you misinformation regarding many things... And its issues are impossible to fix, thus it creates a wilderness of mirrors.
Yeah, I figured those numbers must be bugged even if it DOES decimate all missiles and fighters.
I just wish I understood what it bugs out with so I could somewhat adjust interpretation of the results

I won't be able to respond to all of your analysis but the Sarissa is a great ship, it's like an eagle on coke. What kind of loadout did you use that it didn't work out for you?
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AxleMC131

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Re: [0.9.1a] Mayasuran Navy 8.2.9 RC4
« Reply #354 on: May 09, 2020, 03:17:41 PM »

...
Manta (M) - papermache ship thats a waste of points. Got no ideas how to salvage it.
...

I suppose it's worth requesting the same judgement be made to the base Manta from Disassemble Reassemble - we've had this pointed out before by someone, where the user was calling out both versions of the Manta for being awful (and kept them in this thread, despite my requests to move discussions of the base Manta into DaRa's thread). I'd love to get your more detailed opinion on the ship, for both my sake and Knight Chase's.
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DreXav

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Re: [0.9.1a] Mayasuran Navy 8.2.9 RC4
« Reply #355 on: May 09, 2020, 05:34:38 PM »

I will begin by saying that I was reviewing Mayasuran ships first and foremost on merits of synergy within the faction, hence my focus on the naval variants than the base ones and not from perspective of them being viable or allowed for tournaments, which I wasn't told about when Knight Chase asked for feedback.

...
Manta (M) - papermache ship thats a waste of points. Got no ideas how to salvage it.
...

I suppose it's worth requesting the same judgement be made to the base Manta from Disassemble Reassemble - we've had this pointed out before by someone, where the user was calling out both versions of the Manta for being awful (and kept them in this thread, despite my requests to move discussions of the base Manta into DaRa's thread). I'd love to get your more detailed opinion on the ship, for both my sake and Knight Chase's.
The problem with Manta is that its compromised in all categories - what does it strive to be? It has bad shield efficiency of 1.0 for a destroyer, pitiful armor and lower hull points than alternatives, one hangar slot without wing-buffing system. It could be used as capper thanks to its burn drive, but then again it won't be able to contest it very well against other cappers, so you could use a much cheaper and faster frigate for that purpose. A Wolf or Medusa would be much more useful.
A carrier? As mini carrier it doesn't contribute much, maybe one good bomber at cost of everything else, but it lacks the punch and defense to get near frontline really - and for 3 DP more you can have a much more versatile Drover with two hangar bays, great reserve deployment system and four missile slots that can be fired safely. No contest here.
A harasser? Again, lacks firepower and tankiness - for mere 1 DP more you can have a Hammerhead with 25 OP more, better shield efficiency, much better armor and weapon slots. Again no contest here.

Overall Manta is a great looking ship that is spread too thin and its hard to justify bringing one over better (and more common) alternatives. Its all the more aggravating as it just amplifies the shortcomings in Mayasuran fleet composition. I believe its design must be thoroughly refocused to be workable.

I won't be able to respond to all of your analysis but the Sarissa is a great ship, it's like an eagle on coke. What kind of loadout did you use that it didn't work out for you?
I have no idea how can you say Sarissa is an Eagle on coke - it 's a 25 DP cruiser with 130 OP, 25 less than 22 DP Eagle with 155 OP. 20% armor less and sacrifices THREE medium ballistic and one energy medium slot for one large energy slot and two hangar bays but it doesn't buff its wings either nor has enough OP to work with as opposed to Eagle. Its slow for its role and outclassed by alternatives like Moa (22 DP for whooping 190 OP, great shields and generous flux capacity) and doesn't buff its wings either, so you are better off with a more specialized and cheaper dedicated carrier like a Heron, 20 DP with three hangar bays and a targeting feed system.
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AxleMC131

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Re: [0.9.1a] Mayasuran Navy 8.2.9 RC4
« Reply #356 on: May 09, 2020, 06:26:07 PM »

Alrighty, this looks tasty.



The Manta is definitely unlike other destroyers. The closest comparable (vanilla) hull is probably the Shrike, in that it's a lightweight destroyer with swift movements, that really plays like an oversized frigate. First and foremost, you might see it as a Shrike alternative. It's really cheap for a destroyer - 22,000 credits base, when something like a Hammerhead is 40,000 - but as far as maintenance goes, the ability to field fighters qualifies for a higher monthly supply / deployment cost than you might otherwise expect.

Comparing the Manta to a heavy frigate is perhaps a better option. It gets the benefit of fast movement across the battlefield, alongside a destroyer-grade flux package (and ordnance point budget) and a fighter bay* into the mix as well. Perhaps compare as if it had a medium missile slot or similar instead of the fighter bay, since that's effectively what it sacrifices for the fighters in contrast to other similar ships. The Hammerhead is definitely a better brawler, that can't be denied, but the Manta is more effective at catching small ships and providing supporting fire. The fighters allow it to intercept a target even beyond its own weapons range, and equipping it with an EMP-armed fighter (Thunders or Claws) is a real recipe for rudeness in the Manta.

* It's worth noting that fighters get an automatic speed boost to catch up with their carrier on Regroup mode, so you can put normally slow fighters on it and they won't have a problem keeping up. By that metric, the Manta has another key strength in that it can act as a faster "delivery platform" for slow fighters than other carriers, however this is quite a high-brow exploit and not one that I really care much for.

The rest of the weapons package looks underwhelming, and that's true, it is, but the Manta also has pretty good flux stats for its weight - really good in fact: better than a Hammerhead would you believe! 4500 base flux capacity and 280 dissipation, compared to the Hammerhead's 4200/250. The Hammerhead has its AAF of course, which lets it get effectively double firepower for its flux, and it can also use much punchier weapons, but the Manta can actually handle a lot of flux from both weapons and shields. (The 1.0 efficiency shield is to prevent it from becoming TOO good at tanking on the shield.) On top of the flux, it has the Ordnance budget to afford expensive weaponry - Antimatter Blasters are a great thing to equip in the front, and Railguns or Needlers work well in some of the turrets. The wide shield means you can afford a bunch of offensive weapons in those slots, and you can easily negate nearly all PD, especially if you have an interceptor or support fighter equipped.

Finally, Burn Drive is useful both as a dash-in and a dash-out system. AI usage aside, the Manta is great at pulling the "HEY I'M HERE" move, and despite the light status it does still have some armour to take a few hits while the shield is down. Perhaps the ship's biggest downside that hurts its use as a chaser or pursuit craft is losing the zero-flux boost when its fighters are put into Engage mode, but this can be worked around with selection of fighters and/or hullmods.

One last thing: 10 base burn speed. Without any modifications you have a destroyer at frigate burn speed. It's a small thing since we have Augmented Drive Field and Sustained Burn and tugs to worry about, but it's worth noting all the same.



Despite all of this, the Manta is still only a light destroyer. It can't brawl with other destroyers and certainly can't threaten anything bigger unless you stick some kind of bombers on it. It's very much a versatile, multi-purpose ship design, with the fighters offering the majority of the intrigue there, but all those purposes generally involve beating up small ships. It absolutely CAN perform a harassing task though, but again, this requires particular fighters (don't underestimate the benefit of a wing of Broadswords, Talons or Claws). If you're trying to make a Manta tango with something like a Hammerhead at close range, it won't have a very good time without support. All told, the Manta is an oversized frigate with destroyer-level flux and a fighter bay, and performs best in an unfair fight.

I'm curious to know what roles in particular you've been trying to use the Manta in, and, if you have been using it as a pursuit ship, what exactly you've been pursuing.

Spoiler
The feedback is always appreciated. ;D And also highly interesting - as per the last time someone had this sort of argument, I pointed out that the Manta is one of the most popular ships in Disassemble Reassemble (it's basically the poster child of the mod), yet we have such a variety of playstyles in this game that it's impossible to create something everyone likes, so if this can't be resolved as an actual balance concern, then I'm afraid that's just the way of things.
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MrFluffster

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Re: [0.9.1a] Mayasuran Navy 8.2.9 RC4
« Reply #357 on: May 09, 2020, 07:15:08 PM »

Finally, Burn Drive is useful both as a dash-in and a dash-out system. AI usage aside, the Manta is great at pulling the "HEY I'M HERE" move, and despite the light status it does still have some armour to take a few hits while the shield is down.

I already talked(probably a bit too much) about this on discord but I'll post this here on the forum for the sake of current discussion - in my opinion the Manta is in a pretty good place where it has its own niche and is fairly distinct from the other midline destroyers, with a strong identity. It might not be as obviously strong as Hammerhead and Sunder but its speediness, fighter bay, and system make it a pretty darn good pursuit ship as well as a fun option for piloting yourself. And while it probably would be balanced with an extra mount or changing some to hybrids, that'd affect its iconic personality a bit.
The one thing I think is undertuned in a damaging way is its turn speed, as it is slower than a Hammerhead or the closest comparsion the Shrike. This is the one buff I think this ship really needs to be more fun to pilot.
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Knight Chase

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Re: [0.9.1a] Mayasuran Navy 8.2.9 RC4
« Reply #358 on: May 10, 2020, 12:48:07 AM »

Quote
They captured ships and changed them. They did not have shields, but had powerful armor and acid weapons.

There was that kind of mod?

rather smells like a SPAZ.
Hey. Sorry to ask in this thread. Will tell you please. Previously, the game had a mod that added a faction of parasites. They captured ships and changed them. They did not have shields, but had powerful armor and acid weapons. Is there a similar mod now?
This is not relevant to my thread, why ask here?
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dead_hand

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Re: [0.9.1a] Mayasuran Navy 8.2.9 RC4
« Reply #359 on: May 10, 2020, 02:30:09 AM »

...
I have no idea how can you say Sarissa is an Eagle on coke - it 's a 25 DP cruiser with 130 OP, 25 less than 22 DP Eagle with 155 OP. 20% armor less and sacrifices THREE medium ballistic and one energy medium slot for one large energy slot and two hangar bays but it doesn't buff its wings either nor has enough OP to work with as opposed to Eagle. Its slow for its role and outclassed by alternatives like Moa (22 DP for whooping 190 OP, great shields and generous flux capacity) and doesn't buff its wings either, so you are better off with a more specialized and cheaper dedicated carrier like a Heron, 20 DP with three hangar bays and a targeting feed system.

What I consider is that the fighters can help other ships if the need arises, or stick around with the ship, making it a very flexible option. More importantly the two hangar bays do not use any flux, which is great, and this is a big deal. I usually leave some weapons on the Eagle blank, because it doesn't have the flux stats to actually use all of its weapon slots, so the 'sacrifice' does not bother me very much. As you said, you also get a large energy slot on the Sarissa, so it's not lacking firepower. The Armor value is not an issue for me, I consider that if a ship gets to that point where THAT starts mattering, it's time to get it out of battle and replace it because the ship isn't adding much value to the battle.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2020, 02:36:51 AM by dead_hand »
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