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Author Topic: Integrating the "findship" command into the core game somehow  (Read 5409 times)

Rap1d

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Integrating the "findship" command into the core game somehow
« on: January 20, 2018, 09:45:56 AM »

Hello. I play this game on ironman, and even though I use like 4-5 mod factions that are generally considered well balanced and close to vanilla, in my own fleet and on my own ship I always only use vanilla weapons and vanilla ships. I also play with nexerlin.


The win condition I set for myself with each playthrough is to fully complete the international bounties, and to completely eliminate one of either tri-tachyon or the hegemony. Depends on what faction I join... And yea I play on ironman and don't save-scum.


One thing I consistently find myself doing every playthrough, is looking for a specific ship when I'm upscaling my fleet. I think most people start with a frigate or a destroyer, and when they have enough currency or their fleet is strong enough they want to switch their flagship to either a cruiser or a capital ship. I think that is a pretty standard situation that happens to the vast majority of players. Every time I get to this point, I have two options. Either store my whole fleet in a market storage, and fly around with a single frigate to keep fuel and supply costs down to a minimum, checking the military markets of the whole galaxy, or use the findship command. The first couple of times I took the first option just from a kind of purist no-cheating standpoint, but then I started using the command. Checking the markets is tedious and very random, sometimes it can take ages if you are unlucky. And it's not like using the command is that strong anyway, you have to be friendly with the faction that is selling the ship anyway.


I'm suggesting to incorporate the command into the game somehow, for a cost. Like you dock to a random market (maybe even restrict the function to just pirate markets, or just markets that you have good relations with) and have the ability to basically search for a specific ship in all the markets for a price that would go up depending on the size of the hull you are searching. The numbers can be tweaked, but for example paying 30000 credits to find a capital ship seems about right to me, since you still need to have good enough relations and then pay for the ship itself. Without the command, I would end up using the most common capital ship almost always, which seems to be the onslaught. And that's kinda boring...


Thoughts?
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AxleMC131

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Re: Integrating the "findship" command into the core game somehow
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2018, 12:00:30 PM »

As much as I personally don't find it hard to pick up a cruiser when my fleet gets to that stage (capitals not so sure about), I agree that this could be an interesting feature of the game. Sort of like how Prism Freeport grabs high-tier stuff from all over the sector and puts it in one place for you to peruse, if at a madly inflated price.

However, I'm not sure how it would tie into mechanics and lore, and it also sounds abusable, even if you do put a cost on it. Perhaps ship auctions could be announced in systems or something like that, for specific hulls - maybe rare hulls, or even captured hulls of hostile factions (say the Hegemony captures a Medusa, they strip it of whatever they can and then put the hull up for auction) - but that doesn't really make a lot of sense in the grand scheme of things. I'm unsure how you would go about making it both useful and fair, without being a blatant "You must do this to progress" part in the campaign.



If anything, perhaps markets that are classed as Shipbreaking Stations (like Ragnar Complex, if I recall correctly) could have an additional market that is stocked with rarer but heavily d-modded hulls, being those ships that are still in just good enough condition to be usable but not enough that the military would bother restoring and equipping them themselves. But outside of that, I'm not convinced.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 12:02:55 PM by AxleMC131 »
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Rap1d

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Re: Integrating the "findship" command into the core game somehow
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2018, 12:19:18 PM »

Quote
and it also sounds abusable


How do you imagine it's abusable? What's wrong with having a fleet composed of ships you actually want and not just common ships and ships you randomly find? I mean, if you think having too many specific ships is overpowered, then the problem is that the ship itself is overpowered IMO.
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Alex

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Re: Integrating the "findship" command into the core game somehow
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2018, 12:31:21 PM »

In brief: I get what you're saying here, but would like to see how things shape up once blueprints are in the game and there's some form of ship production, and also some forms of time pressure that would make this sort of boring market-combing untenable in the first place.
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AxleMC131

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Re: Integrating the "findship" command into the core game somehow
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2018, 12:33:50 PM »

Quote
and it also sounds abusable


How do you imagine it's abusable? What's wrong with having a fleet composed of ships you actually want and not just common ships and ships you randomly find? I mean, if you think having too many specific ships is overpowered, then the problem is that the ship itself is overpowered IMO.

Because, as I've been told from a very young age, "'I want' doesn't get."  ;)

If you want a specific ship, you're gonna have to put in the effort to find it. Not everything in the game revolves around currency after all - even if you have to put in effort to make money.
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Megas

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Re: Integrating the "findship" command into the core game somehow
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2018, 12:49:29 PM »

Quote
If you want a specific ship, you're gonna have to put in the effort to find it.
This is supposed to be a game, not a job.  This might have a point if Starsector was designed to be addictive like an online game to encourage maximum grinding, but I doubt Starsector is meant to be that.
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AxleMC131

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Re: Integrating the "findship" command into the core game somehow
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2018, 03:47:06 PM »

@Megas, it's not even "grind" in the strictest sense. It's a combination of flying around and picking up whatever's available, as well as keeping your eyes open for a ship in a market you really want.

Besides, compared to a lot of other games that require "grinding" to progress, Starsector is pretty lax. It's not like you get stonewalled by this one thing you have to find to level up and continue. If you're looking for one single particular ship, then fine, I wish you luck, but it's not like the hunt for that has to stop progression of any other goals you have in the game (as with certain other grindy games).

And, if you want one more point: Finding cool and rare ships as either salvagable derelicts or in markets, and not knowing what's going to be available until you get there, is part of the fun of the game. It's the same reason people like random maps in Roguelike games and such - or even Random Core Worlds in Nexerelin. The moment you get frustrated* or lazy during a hunt for a specific ship, and feel the need to resort to "throwing money at it", I worry that you've removed that aspect of enjoyment from the game. I too look for specific ships sometimes, and if I was able to just say "screw it, I'll just pay some extra credits and get it now", I would worry that doing that would lose me a huge amount of playtime.



* Incidentally, when I say "you get frustrated and remove that aspect of enjoyment" I'm referring to how frustration often chases away enjoyment, with the implication that you might not be doing the right thing. If you're hunting for that ship and getting frustrated at being unable to find it - and as such not enjoying the play experience - then my recommendation is simple: Stop searching for that ship and do something else.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Integrating the "findship" command into the core game somehow
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2018, 07:51:31 PM »

I think this is an issue because some players primarily play the game for the combat and view the campaign layer (to some extent) as filler in between battles. In that context, I can see how it would be frustrating to spend a lot of time searching for a ship or weapon, but I personally very much enjoy the campaign layer. The experience of finding rare, powerful weapons and ships is very exciting. I think just being able to get/find any ship/weapon whenever you wanted would make the campaign layer much less interesting.

edit:
I also think that outposts may solve this in the late game if they give you the ability to manufacture the ships and weapons that you want
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 07:55:21 PM by intrinsic_parity »
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Baqar79

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Re: Integrating the "findship" command into the core game somehow
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2018, 09:23:33 PM »

It can be fairly rewarding to stumble across rare ships and weapons that you aren't explicitly looking for, but there have been a few cases where I have ended up with a huge cash reserve and an underpowered fleet in need of more ships.  Going randomly between bases hoping to find the ship you are after can be a bit boring sometimes.

Still Alex mentioned something about blueprints? does this mean we are able to purchase ship blueprints for our own colonies in the future?

If this is the case, I guess it depends on how you obtain those blueprints (quest rewards, exploration, aligning yourself with a faction, industrial espionage (I don't know just throwing that in there, maybe we can steal blueprints for our colonies)).

Just an idea (well a compromise between a finder and having no search functionality at all), so it could be redundant depending on what is happening with blueprints:
We could hire a broker of sorts to try and locate markets selling particular ships/ship equipment. Just one idea for an implementation:

1.   Hire a broker for a given monthly cost.
2.   Have the broker offer a fairly small selection of ships/ship equipment (selection dependant on the broker's faction affiliation and availability limited by your reputation with that same faction).
3.   Select ship/s and or weapon/s from that broker that you wish to try and locate during that month.
4.   If the broker locates anything on your list, have them contact you letting you know which market/markets are selling those ship/s or weapon/s.
5.   At the end of the month, you can choose to hire the broker again, and if your faction reputation increase enough, you can have more to choose from.

The mechanics for what ships and weapons you can purchase based on faction reputation are already in the game, the main difference is that the broker has access to the complete pool of ship's/weapon's for each tier.  Brokers would of course be restricted to searching their own factions markets only, so you would need to hire brokers from other factions to cover all market's.

The broker relationship could affect things in several ways:
-The time it takes the broker to contact you after locating a ship or weapon.
-A high enough faction relationship could unlock the ability to exclusively reserve ships or equipment (no fear of them being sold before you get there).

It isn't an instant service, and has to be paid for monthly and even then there is no guarantee you will get any of the ships on your list.  In addition if your faction relationship is fairly low, not only are you restricted in your ship selection, but the market information you get if they locate something on your list could take weeks to arrive (you also may never see it since that information may be scheduled to arrive during the next billing cycle, so unless you renew your contract with that broker for that next cycle, that information is never recieved).

I think though it could vastly improve your odds of locating a desired ship if you are allied with a given faction and in high standing so another perk of allying with a faction.
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Integrating the "findship" command into the core game somehow
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2018, 12:33:49 AM »

In brief: I get what you're saying here, but would like to see how things shape up once blueprints are in the game and there's some form of ship production, and also some forms of time pressure that would make this sort of boring market-combing untenable in the first place.
Will we be seeing weapon blueprints as well as ship blueprints? Currently right now finding ships and recovering them is easy but ARMING them is a MUCH harder thing
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Megas

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Re: Integrating the "findship" command into the core game somehow
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2018, 07:58:14 AM »

Besides, compared to a lot of other games that require "grinding" to progress, Starsector is pretty lax. It's not like you get stonewalled by this one thing you have to find to level up and continue. If you're looking for one single particular ship, then fine, I wish you luck, but it's not like the hunt for that has to stop progression of any other goals you have in the game (as with certain other grindy games).

And, if you want one more point: Finding cool and rare ships as either salvagable derelicts or in markets, and not knowing what's going to be available until you get there, is part of the fun of the game. It's the same reason people like random maps in Roguelike games and such - or even Random Core Worlds in Nexerelin. The moment you get frustrated* or lazy during a hunt for a specific ship, and feel the need to resort to "throwing money at it", I worry that you've removed that aspect of enjoyment from the game. I too look for specific ships sometimes, and if I was able to just say "screw it, I'll just pay some extra credits and get it now", I would worry that doing that would lose me a huge amount of playtime.



* Incidentally, when I say "you get frustrated and remove that aspect of enjoyment" I'm referring to how frustration often chases away enjoyment, with the implication that you might not be doing the right thing. If you're hunting for that ship and getting frustrated at being unable to find it - and as such not enjoying the play experience - then my recommendation is simple: Stop searching for that ship and do something else.
I do not agree with any of this.  Perhaps I would decades ago, but not today.

Grinding is lax compared to Diablo II and perhaps other modern games, but it still does not make the grinding any less taxing.

During the pre 0.8 days, I got sick of Tri-Tachyon shops stocking Hammerhead after Hammerhead, when every other market sells low-tech/midline.  THE high-tech faction kept selling low-tech frigates and midline junk (and Hammerhead was awful before 0.8 ), aside from the obligatory Odyssey or Paragon.  If I wanted a Tempest or Hyperion, the easiest way to get one was to attack a Tri-Tachyon fleet (either proper or pirate-in-name-only deserter), and save-scum that battle for about an hour (due to terrible boarding chances) until I successfully board it.  (The save-scum deterrence in some later versions only lengthened the time to get a ship, and it was still the fastest way.  It was much like farming Mephisto or other Diablo II drop boss while wearing mostly magic-find equipment.)

Today, I am sick of arming most of my ships with stuff I can readily find at Open Markets (Mortars, Arbalests, Mark IX) or the handful of Black Market staples (like LAGs and Pulse Lasers).

Then... when NPC factions can use as many rare ships and weapons as it wants, and I cannot, even when I have enough money to buy an entire market and then some, it gets more irritating.  Ever since 0.8 switched to ship recovery, I am able to acquire Tempests (and other ships) far more easily than I used to.  At least most ships are easy to acquire provided I am willing to suffer (D) mods on them (because restoration is very expensive).  Weapons, on the other hand, are generally harder to replace than ships.

I do not bat an eye at reloading the game as soon as a lose a rare ship or weapon, which before 0.8 was nearly everything (aside from some frigates and Hammerheads).  I call that saving time.  Means I do not need to spend days rebuilding a character.  Today, if I lose a clunker with open market weapons, I do not care and continue with the game, although I get tired of having my entire fleet be said clunkers.  As soon as I lose my elite flagship, an undamaged ship (that I cannot buy), or a ship that needs rare weapons to work, it is an instant reload.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Integrating the "findship" command into the core game somehow
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2018, 10:42:08 AM »

This is why I hoard all my looted weapons so that I can always arm my ships properly
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Igncom1

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Re: Integrating the "findship" command into the core game somehow
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2018, 10:48:45 AM »

I do that as well.

Makes for a nice nest egg should you run low on money as well.
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Rap1d

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Re: Integrating the "findship" command into the core game somehow
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2018, 11:09:38 AM »

Quote
If you're hunting for that ship and getting frustrated at being unable to find it - and as such not enjoying the play experience - then my recommendation is simple: Stop searching for that ship and do something else.


So another onslaught playthrough it is then? Buying the first capital ship is such a huge investment, It's not like you can switch it up after you make the purchase... And you end up "stuck" with that capital ship for quite a few battles. You look like the game as a rougelike, I look at the game more as a strategy game. And in a strategy game, I want to decide the composition of my army...
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Integrating the "findship" command into the core game somehow
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2018, 11:29:27 AM »

Quote
If you're hunting for that ship and getting frustrated at being unable to find it - and as such not enjoying the play experience - then my recommendation is simple: Stop searching for that ship and do something else.


So another onslaught playthrough it is then? Buying the first capital ship is such a huge investment, It's not like you can switch it up after you make the purchase... And you end up "stuck" with that capital ship for quite a few battles. You look like the game as a rougelike, I look at the game more as a strategy game. And in a strategy game, I want to decide the composition of my army...
I kinda agree with this: Getting anything that the Heg doesn't use can be a royal pain due to how FEW Military markets there are that DON'T stock low tech ships/ tech. TT has like what, four? five? markets? And not a single size 6 IIRC. Meanwhile we have the two largest factions both using low tech ships. I was REALLY hoping the League was gonna be mid tech... (Although it has been awhile since I played last so I might be wrong)
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