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[Megas]

Soloing fleets with frigates was reeaally long ago... Before CR put an end to it.

I would not say that Shade is that horrible. Sure, it's straight downgrade from Afflictor, but being a phase frigate still makes it second/third most powerful vanilla frigate for player piloting (that nobody wants to pilot, because Afflictor exists).

I brought up Medusa/Afflictor because they are roughly in same price/availability category as Tempest (which is too hard to get for what it does as player ship). Ultimately I also prefer a Capital, though my vanilla choice is Onslaught - weaker than Paragon, but has more proactive role on battlefield, thus more fun.

Actually, from 0.6 to 0.6.2, it was possible for a Tempest or Afflictor to solo the Hegemony Defense Fleet before CR decayed too much, just hard, and pointless with Medusa (and most other ships) having unlimited CR back then.  Hyperion did not have enough time.  (In case of Afflictor, killing the fighters was harder than killing the Onslaught trio.)

Then, in 0.6.5, almost nothing was as big as old Hegemony Defense Fleets, plus the soft cap was raised from 40 to 60 thanks to food runs (meaning it was easily possible to get 10-10-10 and almost every skill you want), and Hyperion could solo almost everything before CR decayed too much.  All ships got peak performance then.  (My food run fleet was two Hyperion and 16+ Atlases.  Bounty Hunter fleet was two Hyperion, and 40+ frigates of whatever.)

I do not see how Shade is that great.  It cannot bypass shields easily like Afflictor can.  It cannot alpha-strike as hard.  It cannot kite-and-tank.  It costs a lot to deploy (but does not destroy stuff like Afflictor or Hyperion can).  With old Phase Cloak, it could hang back, snipe with beams and needles.  It was a great ghost tank.  New phase cloak has pigeonholed the ships into alpha strikers.  Its ship system is a liability.  Shade turns on EMP, and cannot fire its weapons.  EMP lasts longer than it needs to zap a ship.  I can cancel with phase cloak, but then if I uncloak, I cannot cloak again for a few seconds.  This was not a problem with old phase cloak.  Shade could be okay as support, except AI is too cloak happy and runs out of CR too fast.  I do not fear enemy Shades.  They are an annoyance, but not a serious threat.  Afflictor, on the other, is a true demonic spider.

Medusa is common enough.  Afflictor... is not if I do not have a commission.  If I cannot buy the ships, then Tempest is about as common as Afflictor.  (I tend to recover more Tempests than Afflictors in my games.)  As for Medusa, I might get one early in the game as an upgrade to the Wolf, although I prefer to get Drover instead.

I used to like Onslaught more during the 0.7.x days, when it was much more mobile and could solo fleets minutes faster than Paragon.  Now, Onslaught cannot remove its weaknesses like it used to.

[Baqar79]

I do not see how Shade is that great.  It cannot bypass shields easily like Afflictor can.  It cannot alpha-strike as hard.  It cannot kite-and-tank.  It costs a lot to deploy (but does not destroy stuff like Afflictor or Hyperion can).  With old Phase Cloak, it could hang back, snipe with beams and needles.  It was a great ghost tank.  New phase cloak has pigeonholed the ships into alpha strikers.  Its ship system is a liability.  Shade turns on EMP, and cannot fire its weapons.  EMP lasts longer than it needs to zap a ship.  I can cancel with phase cloak, but then if I uncloak, I cannot cloak again for a few seconds.  This was not a problem with old phase cloak.  Shade could be okay as support, except AI is too cloak happy and runs out of CR too fast.  I do not fear enemy Shades.  They are an annoyance, but not a serious threat.  Afflictor, on the other, is a true demonic spider.

My last 2 runs through the game I have used Afflictor's and Harbinger's due to how effective they are (Quantum Disruptor make's it pretty trivial to take down capital ship's like the Paragon).  I did end up shelving my Shade's as they weren't as effective as the Afflictor/Harbinger combo.

But...I think Quantum Disruptor probably needs to be nerfed, perhaps restrict the disruption to the shield system (or cloaking sytem if applicable), so that even if I am going to get a free shot with 3 Reaper missiles, it's going to cost me in terms of damage as the enemies weapons will still be fully functional.

This might make the shade a little more useful with it's EMP special to disable the remaining weapon systems, but would be a lot harder to coordinate to get a free shot at the hull without taking damage.

As another idea, perhaps the shade could be given a special that uses charges (that recharge over time) to cloak instantly.

[AxleMC131]

... I like how this has now degraded into a ship systems balance discussion. XD

[TaLaR]

I do not see how Shade is that great.  It cannot bypass shields easily like Afflictor can.  It cannot alpha-strike as hard.  It cannot kite-and-tank.  It costs a lot to deploy (but does not destroy stuff like Afflictor or Hyperion can).  With old Phase Cloak, it could hang back, snipe with beams and needles.  It was a great ghost tank.  New phase cloak has pigeonholed the ships into alpha strikers.  Its ship system is a liability.  Shade turns on EMP, and cannot fire its weapons.  EMP lasts longer than it needs to zap a ship.  I can cancel with phase cloak, but then if I uncloak, I cannot cloak again for a few seconds.  This was not a problem with old phase cloak.  Shade could be okay as support, except AI is too cloak happy and runs out of CR too fast.  I do not fear enemy Shades.  They are an annoyance, but not a serious threat.  Afflictor, on the other, is a true demonic spider.

That's the thing. Shade can bypass shields. Here is a topic with 2 attached videos (video quality is crappy, but enough to get the idea) of how I do it:
http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=12773.0

As you can see, even a lowly Shade can delete a Medusa pretty much instantly, if it does everything exactly right.
The above manner is also preferable for Afflictor, unless you specifically want to launch Reapers, because using Quantum Disruptor halves energy damage output.

Of course AI can't do stuff like this, so there is nothing to be afraid of, as far enemy phase ships are concerned.

[AxleMC131]

... because using Quantum Disruptor halves energy damage output...

Pretty sure it's more than halved; it drops it down to 10% in my experience.

[TaLaR]

... because using Quantum Disruptor halves energy damage output...

Pretty sure it's more than halved; it drops it down to 10% in my experience.

Did you test against Paragon/Onslaught? 50% pre-armor can lead to much less post-armor.
Just tested against a full hp Medusa, synced shot with 3 AM blasters (4200 raw damage):
1)Bypassed as on video: 3199 hull, 619 armor, dead Medusa.
2)Used QD: 1195 hull, 585 armor. Of course it's effectively less than 50%, but Medusa did have at least some armor.

[AxleMC131]

Oh no, you're right. I must have mis-remembered from my trawling through the files.

...
public class AcausalDisruptorStats extends BaseShipSystemScript {
   public static final float ENERGY_DAM_PENALTY_MULT = 0.5f;
   
   public static final float DISRUPTION_DUR = 1f;
   public static final float MIN_DISRUPTION_RANGE = 500f;
   
   public static final Color OVERLOAD_COLOR = new Color(255,155,255,255);
   
   public static final Color JITTER_COLOR = new Color(255,155,255,75);
   public static final Color JITTER_UNDER_COLOR = new Color(255,155,255,155);

   
   public void apply(MutableShipStatsAPI stats, String id, State state, float effectLevel) {
      ShipAPI ship = null;
      //boolean player = false;
      if (stats.getEntity() instanceof ShipAPI) {
         ship = (ShipAPI) stats.getEntity();
         //player = ship == Global.getCombatEngine().getPlayerShip();
      } else {
         return;
      }
      
      //stats.getEnergyWeaponDamageMult().modifyMult(id, 1f - (1f - ENERGY_DAM_PENALTY_MULT) * effectLevel);
      stats.getEnergyWeaponDamageMult().modifyMult(id, ENERGY_DAM_PENALTY_MULT);
...

[Megas]

@ TaLaR:  I am aware of that.  I qualified my statement easily.  I know Shade (and other phase ships) can ghost through an enemy and bypass shields as shown in your video.  Afflictor, I push a button, enemy gets paralyzed and loses shields, then it eats either Reapers or AM Blasters.  Shade simply takes advantage of existing openings as fighters do (only Shade risks dying, while fighters are disposable).  Similarly, those with skimmers can jump behind smaller enemies and bypass non-360 shields (at greater risk of error and dying).  Afflictor is good because it can create an opening when there is none.

[TaLaR]

@ TaLaR:  I am aware of that.  I qualified my statement easily.  I know Shade (and other phase ships) can ghost through an enemy and bypass shields as shown in your video.  Afflictor, I push a button, enemy gets paralyzed and loses shields, then it eats either Reapers or AM Blasters.  Shade simply takes advantage of existing openings as fighters do (only Shade risks dying, while fighters are disposable).  Similarly, those with skimmers can jump behind smaller enemies and bypass non-360 shields (at greater risk of error and dying).  Afflictor is good because it can create an opening when there is none.

Yeah, but QD reduces energy damage by 50%. That is good enough for finishing blow (which is the most risky part with bypassing shield like that) or for launching Reapers, but otherwise straight bypass is better even for Afflictor(faster kill = less CR spent). Plus it gets easier on character with skills.

Either way, i think Hyperion is the only other frigate that can kill a Medusa comparably fast without relying on missiles. Which is why Shade is 2nd/3rd power-wise.

[Cyan Leader]

I'm not sure why you're rating the Shade so highly when the Afflictor can do the same thing if the player simply chooses not to engage QD. What QD does, in fact, is enable options when approaching the enemy in cases which the right angle isn't feasible due to other ships covering it, and also giving options vs. those with 360 shields.

Moreover, I don't remember the stats right now out of the top of my head but isn't the Afflictor just superior in most ways there too?

[TaLaR]

I'm not sure why you're rating the Shade so highly when the Afflictor can do the same thing if the player simply chooses not to engage QD. What QD does, in fact, is enable options when approaching the enemy in cases which the right angle isn't feasible due to other ships covering it, and also giving options vs. those with 360 shields.

Moreover, I don't remember the stats right now out of the top of my head but isn't the Afflictor just superior in most ways there too?

I'm not saying Shade is better than Afflictor:

I would not say that Shade is that horrible. Sure, it's straight downgrade from Afflictor, but being a phase frigate still makes it second/third most powerful vanilla frigate for player piloting (that nobody wants to pilot, because Afflictor exists).

[Cyan Leader]

Ah never mind, I misread your post.