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Author Topic: why was sensor drones removed from Apogee  (Read 7967 times)

wei270

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why was sensor drones removed from Apogee
« on: January 17, 2018, 07:45:48 PM »

the sensor drones made Apogee feel unique i was wondering why it was removed?
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Dri

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Re: why was sensor drones removed from Apogee
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2018, 07:50:27 PM »

Been awhile since the nerf, but I think it was because the Apogee was simply too powerful and needed to be brought down a peg or two—since range is such a powerful stat in Starsector, it was a good choice.

Also, the old drone systems didn't play nice with the new fighter wing mechanics.
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AxleMC131

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Re: why was sensor drones removed from Apogee
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2018, 09:12:50 PM »

Yeah, drone launcher systems have been all but removed from the stock game's ships, save for the Prometheus, and where appropriate replaced with alternative systems (as on the various carriers that previously had PD drones) or built-in fighter wings (as on the Shepherd and Tempest)*.

In the case of the Apogee, even for a cruiser featuring a 360 degree shield, I've often found it to be severely lacking in defensive options due to a very limited number of turret mounts for equipping PD weaponry. Since the Sensor Drones didn't exactly help with that (having nothing but an Ion Cannon each), I personally think the change from them to Active Flares - arguably one of the most powerful defensive systems in the stock game - was extremely suitable.

And, I shouldn't need to remind people, just 'cause it can hold its own in combat doesn't mean the Apogee is intended to be a front-line cruiser. It isn't. It's an armed exploration ship, and when it comes to a firefight should be treated as such.



* For the record, I maintain that both fighter wings and drone systems have their benefits and penalties, and it's tempting to write up a short "compare and contrast" thread somewhere, showing each ones' strengths and what they can/can't do. Potentially both for players and modders.
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TaLaR

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Re: why was sensor drones removed from Apogee
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2018, 09:29:57 PM »

* For the record, I maintain that both fighter wings and drone systems have their benefits and penalties, and it's tempting to write up a short "compare and contrast" thread somewhere, showing each ones' strengths and what they can/can't do. Potentially both for players and modders.

Problems with drone systems are that they duplicate fighter functionality (though having 2 separately controlled 'fighter' groups can be useful) and that they are boring to use (at least straightforward ones, like one Tempest's Terminator) compared to fun stuff like phase skimmer.
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AxleMC131

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Re: why was sensor drones removed from Apogee
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2018, 11:52:09 PM »

Problems with drone systems are that they duplicate fighter functionality (though having 2 separately controlled 'fighter' groups can be useful) and that they are boring to use (at least straightforward ones, like one Tempest's Terminator) compared to fun stuff like phase skimmer.

True, and mostly true.

But.

- Drones can be set to have particular orbits or idle positions around their parent ship (such as encircling it entirely with a shield wall of armour drones)
- Drones can be recalled and repaired
- Drones can be set to have limited replacements
- Drones can give status effect bonuses to their parent ship while deployed.

Fighters can do none of those things.  8)
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TaLaR

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Re: why was sensor drones removed from Apogee
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2018, 12:52:27 AM »

Which is why I specifically qualified
(at least straightforward ones, like Tempest's Terminator)

I agree that drone systems can have advanced uses for modders. Though most of things you've listed still seem passive-ish compared to phase skimmer (which I consider gold standard for a ship system: fun and flexible, yet not too overwhelming).
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 12:55:48 AM by TaLaR »
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Inventor Raccoon

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Re: why was sensor drones removed from Apogee
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2018, 08:31:32 AM »

Drone systems are OK but a lot of the time all you're going to do is deploy the drones, toggle to free mode if possible, and leave it that way for the entire battle, which is much less interesting than other systems that you have to use at appropriate times. Sensor Drones you just toggle on and reap the passive benefits, while Active Flares have to be timed properly and you've got to make sure you actually have enough flux to use them without getting into trouble.
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Megas

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Re: why was sensor drones removed from Apogee
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2018, 08:38:51 AM »

To get much of the drone functionality back, install Converted Hangar and a Claw wing.  Claws zap enemies at least as well as drones did, although they do not give more shot range.  Admittedly, more shot range was the more important power of the drones.

Without more shot range, Apogee was hit hard.  It has neither the range nor the speed to fight effectively in the new cowardly AI metagame.  (Well, it has beams for range, but without kinetics to back them up, its low beam firepower is hard countered by most shields.)  If that should be fixed, I recommend changing the heavy hardpoint (only) to a universal or hybrid.  Why?  Apogee and Remnant's Brilliant cruiser are similar in design - both have awkward mounts, both have 0.6 shields, both have Active Flare systems to compensate for terrible PD (due to awkward mounts), both are relatively slow.  Apogee has extra hauling capacity, while Brilliant has a builtin flight deck.  Brilliant is an excellent sniper, while Apogee cannot do much in a fight on its own.  The easiest way to give Apogee some more range is to let it mount some ballisitics, like Mjolnir or Gauss Cannon.
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xenoargh

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Re: why was sensor drones removed from Apogee
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2018, 09:21:19 AM »

Or just give it its range back, by giving it built-in Supercomputer, or give it a flight deck so that it's not awkwardly using Converted Hanger (which is hugely inefficient and a total waste of Supplies at that point). 

It was the one Cruiser that I thought was actually worth what you spent on it for late-game play in 0.72, if equipped properly and utilized correctly; the huge nerf-bat wasn't really justified.
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Megas

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Re: why was sensor drones removed from Apogee
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2018, 10:01:24 AM »

The biggest nerf to Apogee is AI running away like trolling cowards until they gain an obvious advantage.  If AI behaved like pre-0.8 when they charged in with guns blazing, the range loss Apogee took would not be so bad.  Today, with slow speed and poor range, Apogee is pointless by the time the player can get one.  By then, it is better to get dedicated combat ship and dedicated hauler instead of hybrids.

Apogee gaining more speed would make it a neo-Aurora knock-off, so giving it more range would be good.  Supercomputer might be more range than it ever had, though.  I suggested changing a mount to accept ballistics so that it can get more range without too much change.

I would rather see Odyssey get Supercomputer than Apogee, given the shield nerf it got (and if that nerf will not be reversed).

On the other hand, at least Aurora is not a total joke now like it was in 0.7.2 (which Odyssey takes now).
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: why was sensor drones removed from Apogee
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2018, 10:03:18 AM »

Apogee sensor boost is nice in the campaign to be fair
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Megas

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Re: why was sensor drones removed from Apogee
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2018, 12:01:25 PM »

* For the record, I maintain that both fighter wings and drone systems have their benefits and penalties, and it's tempting to write up a short "compare and contrast" thread somewhere, showing each ones' strengths and what they can/can't do. Potentially both for players and modders.

Problems with drone systems are that they duplicate fighter functionality (though having 2 separately controlled 'fighter' groups can be useful) and that they are boring to use (at least straightforward ones, like one Tempest's Terminator) compared to fun stuff like phase skimmer.
I agree with duplicating fighter functionality.  Boring... only if the system is weak, which Terminator with old phase cloak was not (but stuff like Astral's old laser drones were).  During the days of old-style phase cloak, I liked Terminator more than Phase Skimmer because it was more powerful - it distracted AI and zapped missiles.  (Phase Skimmer is still good though.)

Power is all that matters.  Even better when it is passive - less fiddly bits to deal with.
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TaLaR

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Re: why was sensor drones removed from Apogee
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2018, 04:06:30 PM »

I agree with duplicating fighter functionality.  Boring... only if the system is weak, which Terminator with old phase cloak was not (but stuff like Astral's old laser drones were).  During the days of old-style phase cloak, I liked Terminator more than Phase Skimmer because it was more powerful - it distracted AI and zapped missiles.  (Phase Skimmer is still good though.)

Power is all that matters.  Even better when it is passive - less fiddly bits to deal with.

Terminator was (and to some degree is) powerful, but that alone does not make me want to pilot a Tempest. I can get a Medusa at about the same cost anyway, which is more powerful and fun to pilot. Or the incredibly OP Afflictor, which is in a category of it's own.

Tempest is the best frigate for AI piloting though, since AI is just not good at using fiddly systems/phase cloak and raw stats are good. Also, sometimes it's worth to fiddle with Terminator too - to sync up it's attack and yours against enemies that can kill it quickly otherwise, for example.
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Megas

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Re: why was sensor drones removed from Apogee
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2018, 07:56:32 AM »

It is not only the drone, but also being able to vent-spam dual heavy blasters with the old skills.  Tempest was a monster for its size, when Hyperion was not an option.  Today, it is decent as a mini-carrier like the Borer is.  Tempest's best use today is burn speed to enable pursuit (and auto-resolve) against any enemy fleet.

Afflictor became overpowered when it got new-style Phase Cloak and Quantum Disruptor, the same time Tempest's Terminator took a big hit (since it could not ghost tank anymore).  With old-style Phase Cloak and Active Flares, Afflictor was, at best, roughly on par with Tempest, except it was almost helpless against fighters, while Tempest could kill everything.  Afflictor and Tempest were decent at trying to solo Hegemony Defense Fleets.

With old-style phase cloak, Shade was good as a tank, tanking better than Monitor.  Now, Shade is an overpriced dud.

If I am not limited to frigates, I prefer to pilot a capital for sheer power, probably Paragon (or a carrier if I get too annoyed with cowardly enemies).
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TaLaR

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Re: why was sensor drones removed from Apogee
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2018, 08:58:16 AM »

It is not only the drone, but also being able to vent-spam dual heavy blasters with the old skills.  Tempest was a monster for its size, when Hyperion was not an option.  Today, it is decent as a mini-carrier like the Borer is.  Tempest's best use today is burn speed to enable pursuit (and auto-resolve) against any enemy fleet.

Afflictor became overpowered when it got new-style Phase Cloak and Quantum Disruptor, the same time Tempest's Terminator took a big hit (since it could not ghost tank anymore).  With old-style Phase Cloak and Active Flares, Afflictor was, at best, roughly on par with Tempest, except it was almost helpless against fighters, while Tempest could kill everything.  Afflictor and Tempest were decent at trying to solo Hegemony Defense Fleets.

With old-style phase cloak, Shade was good as a tank, tanking better than Monitor.  Now, Shade is an overpriced dud.

If I am not limited to frigates, I prefer to pilot a capital for sheer power, probably Paragon (or a carrier if I get too annoyed with cowardly enemies).

Soloing fleets with frigates was reeaally long ago... Before CR put an end to it.

I would not say that Shade is that horrible. Sure, it's straight downgrade from Afflictor, but being a phase frigate still makes it second/third most powerful vanilla frigate for player piloting (that nobody wants to pilot, because Afflictor exists).

I brought up Medusa/Afflictor because they are roughly in same price/availability category as Tempest (which is too hard to get for what it does as player ship). Ultimately I also prefer a Capital, though my vanilla choice is Onslaught - weaker than Paragon, but has more proactive role on battlefield, thus more fun.
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