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Author Topic: Revisiting the Economy  (Read 25396 times)

Alex

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Re: Revisiting the Economy
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2018, 09:24:53 AM »

Thank you for all the positive feedback!

No playable release over Christmas & the new year Mr. Alex. That dog don't hunt.

:(


It does feel like Accessibility being a % but one that counts down from 100 and can go negative with no cap, as well as modifying prices (but not by its actual % value) is a bit confusing. The idea that smuggling reduces accessibility as well is a bit... awkward? It is *true* that black markets are less accessible than open ones, but I don't think many people would phrase it that way.

Would 'Remoteness' or 'Trade Difficulty' be more intuitive? Then you could write the consequences in a fairly simple list like:
  • 0 Trade Difficulty: 100% price, no unit restrictions
  • 100 TD: 75% price, no unit restrictions
  • Every further 25 TD: -10% price, -1 unit available to trade

Another advantage of this is that '20 Ly of distance adds 200 Trade Difficulty' also feels more natural than '20 Ly of distance reduces accessibility by 200%'. E.g. you can rewrite the Accessibility penalties as:
  • Every Ly of distance: 10 TD
  • Target has no spaceport: 150 TD
  • Trade is smuggling: 100 TD
It also means you can have less subtraction in your calculations. In the current draft starting out with 100 then subtracting away feels like a bit more mental work for the player than just addition (though of course freeports etc. will require it anyway so maybe it's not that much of a benefit?).

Hah, that's funny - it was called "remoteness" up to about halfway through and then I switched it around to "accessibility".

Reasons:

"Accessibility" makes more sense to say than "remoteness" in many situations. To take your example, "smuggling reduces accessibility" makes sense. "Smuggling increases remoteness", less so - it kind of does conceptually, but you have to "make it fit" more. Same for things like trade fleet losses etc. "Remoteness" is a word that's focused on distance, while "accessibility" is more of a catch-all. "Trade difficulty" would also work, but it's a more awkward construction, and it's focused on trade, where accessibility could be used for other things.

Having a "good" value that goes up, and has negative effects when it's negative, is I think more intuitive. It also makes it easy to talk about bonuses and penalties. What's a "bonus" to remoteness? Negative remoteness being good feels like forcing an unnecessary double negative on the player.

"Accessibility", capped to 0-100, is how much profit you get from exports. Remoteness, you have to invert.

As far as the number of subtractions, there's actually more positives at this point, though I'd expect some other negatives to come in. Either way, though, it'll end up being a mix so I think that's a wash.

Basically it just feels a lot simpler to work with - when I was writing explanations in tooltips, "accessibility" was a lot easier to produce comprehensible explanations for.


if i understood correct each market will have different accessibility score for each other market depending on distance value. All other modifiers( which are super cool btw:) )  are fixed binary up/downgrades.( you have them or not).

Yep, that's correct. The only exception is waystations, where the modifier depends on the distance between the two markets and how far-off it is from the midpoint. Still working through some details for that, though.

My suggestion is when selecting  a planet for colonization on the star map it  may be useful  to have a filter turning on/of  radius around the planet indicating the penalty levels to accessibility from distance - 50%  - 100% etc  . ( similar to fuel range  but around a selected planet not the player fleet)

Hmm - before you colonize, you can view a list of nearby markets, like so:

Spoiler

(click to view full-size)
[close]

It assumes the market you establish would have a spaceport and shows the accessibility of other markets - I think that just about covers what you're asking for, but in a slightly different way?

i am a little sad that those pretty colored reach indicator circles didn't work well for anything other than being pretty though. :D

Same, same.


Great blog post! With this colony system shaping up quite nicely, now it'd be cool if we had a fleet and blueprint system where you could customize your fleets and manufacture ships/equipment in your colonies for which you have the blueprints for. That would be like the cherry on top!

It really would be pretty cool, wouldn't it?


Always nice when you get to slice through a Gordian knot of tangled game rules, eh?

Not going to lie, the way the design cruft fell away on adding accessibility was super satisfying.

Not strictly related to the new stuff, but I have a question: How quickly does the system adapt to changes in a particular market's supply/demand?
The particular scenario I've been thinking of:
- Event temporarily increases demand for commodity X on a market
- Market immediately increases imports from supplier (possibly the same one it already had)
- No supply shortfall for player to take advantage of

The system adjusts instantly. However, for every commodity, there's an "available" stat which can be modified with temporary mods. So for example, if a trade fleet is destroyed, in addition to accessibility consequences for the market, commodities it was tasked with delivering (depending on what stage in its route it got destroyed at) will receive a -2 available penalty for 3 months. The penalty will stick even if the supplier changes in the meantime. So, an "increased demand" event would need to apply this same sort of penalty - i.e. call it "-2 unexpected demand" or some such. It might make more sense framed as a shortage, though.
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FeudalWulf

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Re: Revisiting the Economy
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2018, 09:40:50 AM »

A quote of (the very end of) the blog "...there’s so much more clarify in how..." I'm internally screaming "Clarity!" and I feel it's my duty to let you know of this minor problem that few people will ever read, because it was probably the last sentence in the blog.

Anyways, I read through the comments and noticed that you said waystations are actually in systems with colonies. I think most of us thought waystations were like rest stops on a highway for truckers. As in, you'd build a waystation in a remote empty system faraway from all your other colonies to get more trade range(now less penalties); think buoys in Transport Tycoon, if you've played that.

Not really addressed in the blog post, but I take it you could just plop down a station anywhere? i.e. Make a colony in the midpoint between Jangala and Asharu.

A colony requires a planet; a "waystation" is a structure you build at a colony (largely in orbit, presumably).

Updates look great, this really is shaping up to be "Mount and Blade: Stellaris" particularly with this update, and it's legitimately something I make up in my wildest dreams!
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Alex

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Re: Revisiting the Economy
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2018, 09:49:10 AM »

A quote of (the very end of) the blog "...there’s so much more clarify in how..." I'm internally screaming "Clarity!" and I feel it's my duty to let you know of this minor problem that few people will ever read, because it was probably the last sentence in the blog.

Thank you for letting me know! Fixed that up.

Anyways, I read through the comments and noticed that you said waystations are actually in systems with colonies. I think most of us thought waystations were like rest stops on a highway for truckers. As in, you'd build a waystation in a remote empty system faraway from all your other colonies to get more trade range(now less penalties); think buoys in Transport Tycoon, if you've played that.

Right, yeah, and that's how they were prior to these changes, but now it's something you build at a colony. IIRC I went into the reasons why in the blog post.

Updates look great, this really is shaping up to be "Mount and Blade: Stellaris" particularly with this update, and it's legitimately something I make up in my wildest dreams!

Thank you! Hopefully it'll deliver on that.
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Arclacke

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Re: Revisiting the Economy
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2018, 11:20:36 AM »

I'm a SS beginner so sorry if I say something wrong.

I didn't really understand how the markets buy/sell from each other, I'm assuming they do it instantly, with no cargo ships in between to make the deliveries.
I think it would be really cool if there were free traders in the game(kinda like how it is in X3: Albion Prelude), just NPC traders trying to turn a profit by buying low and selling high, that way the economy would be pretty dynamic since lets say you create a market that sells X product, then if there was a demand for that product nearby, traders would naturally come and buy from you, since theres an opportunity for profit. It also improves greatly playing as a pirate with all the traders moving around with precious cargo.

But for all of that to happen the devs must make a legal trader life more viable, since right now its pratically impossible to turn a profit by selling and buying in the open markets without missions, and depending on missions is kinda lame IMO.
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VuNut

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Re: Revisiting the Economy
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2018, 12:21:32 PM »

Spoiler

[close]





Not sure if I need more drugs or less. The update is looking good, anyway.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 12:26:26 PM by VuNut »
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Mazuo

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Re: Revisiting the Economy
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2018, 04:45:19 PM »

If a system is in an ideal midpoint location for a waystation, but also has a very desirable planet in it for a full colony, can it accommodate both functions without having to sacrifice building slots one or the other needs to capitalize on its purpose?
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SafariJohn

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Re: Revisiting the Economy
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2018, 05:19:41 PM »

I didn't really understand how the markets buy/sell from each other, I'm assuming they do it instantly, with no cargo ships in between to make the deliveries.

The current dynamic economy simulation is the primary limit on how many markets Alex and modders can put in the game because it sucks up a ton of CPU time doing those transactions you mention. The new economy will be static and thus allow Alex and modders to do a lot more cool stuff.

I think it would be really cool if there were free traders in the game(kinda like how it is in X3: Albion Prelude), just NPC traders trying to turn a profit by buying low and selling high, that way the economy would be pretty dynamic since lets say you create a market that sells X product, then if there was a demand for that product nearby, traders would naturally come and buy from you, since theres an opportunity for profit. It also improves greatly playing as a pirate with all the traders moving around with precious cargo.

IIRC, trade fleets from the "independents" faction can appear at almost any market.

But for all of that to happen the devs must make a legal trader life more viable, since right now its pratically impossible to turn a profit by selling and buying in the open markets without missions, and depending on missions is kinda lame IMO.

The main problem is that running goods from one location to another yourself is tedious and boring. I think trading could be a fun part of the game if that boring part could be automated. I made a suggestion related to that a while back: Managing Detachments

IIRC, the current missions are mostly placeholders, so it's no surprise they aren't the most exciting thing ever.

Oh, and welcome to the forums! :)
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Alex

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Re: Revisiting the Economy
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2018, 05:29:04 PM »

I didn't really understand how the markets buy/sell from each other, I'm assuming they do it instantly, with no cargo ships in between to make the deliveries.
I think it would be really cool if there were free traders in the game(kinda like how it is in X3: Albion Prelude), just NPC traders trying to turn a profit by buying low and selling high, that way the economy would be pretty dynamic since lets say you create a market that sells X product, then if there was a demand for that product nearby, traders would naturally come and buy from you, since theres an opportunity for profit. It also improves greatly playing as a pirate with all the traders moving around with precious cargo.

Welcome to the forum!

There are trade fleets, and what happens to them affects the economy (i.e. if one is lost, that'll cause a shortage), but they aren't *required* to ship stuff.

To your other point - *actually* moving stuff around with fleets would be totally impossible. There are just so many practical problems with that that I don't even know where to begin. ... ok, the first problem is that you'd need at least a thousand trade fleets, most likely, to make it all tick. It doesn't get too much better from there :)


@VuNut: Less. Definitely less.


If a system is in an ideal midpoint location for a waystation, but also has a very desirable planet in it for a full colony, can it accommodate both functions without having to sacrifice building slots one or the other needs to capitalize on its purpose?

Mostly. There's currently a limit of 12 industries per market, and a waystation would take up one of those slots, so that has some impact, but not an awful lot. I'd imagine most markets would be under that limit anyway.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Revisiting the Economy
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2018, 05:52:50 PM »

Mostly. There's currently a limit of 12 industries per market, and a waystation would take up one of those slots, so that has some impact, but not an awful lot. I'd imagine most markets would be under that limit anyway.

Might be wise to add a little "[X/12] Industries" UI element somewhere just to make that limit extra clear.
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Thaago

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Re: Revisiting the Economy
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2018, 06:52:45 PM »

So I guess the real question is... how much will player skills effect things? We've seen that there are skills that boost colonies under direct management, but also that you can hire governors or have helpful AI buddies! Nothing bad can possibly happen.

Surveying is going to be important, obviously, but I'm not sure if max level will really be required - except for mineral powerhouses, the best worlds tend to be habitable, which can usually be surveyed with a rank or two. (I make a habit of checking the listed planets of unexplored systems I fly by - if I see a Terran I'll stop in and grab that juicy class 4 or 5 data. Come to think of it, should we know the class of the planets from hyperspace without doing a preliminary survey?).

If colonies are going to be the 'main' end game state for players I feel like new players should get a bit of a warning in some way, so that they can plan. It would be really frustrating to hit the level cap after having a merry time blowing everything up, say "Ok, I'll try colonies now.", and be unable to do so. Not a problem for second playthrough, but still.
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Ishman

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Re: Revisiting the Economy
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2018, 07:30:12 PM »

These possibilities resulting from the economy, colony, and production systems quite excite me.

I've always wanted to be able to play a space sim game that had complex enough systems that it could interestingly replicate megastructures.

What I wouldn't give to be able to bootstrap up from melting nickel-iron and silicaceous asteroids down into molten globules, spinning them up (by using the same mirror array used to melt them to vaporize the edge and outjet a propulsive thrust) to separate them centrifugally into pure elements. Then conjoin those two discs of pure silicon and shiny metal into an enormous mirror. And then - repeat.

Mine an entire star system of all it's smaller than planetary bodies.

Find a small jovian and encircle the entire thing in a particle collider, using it to create beyond island of stability elements and degenerate matter (held together by the super science that is shield technology, of course (idea courtesy of john c. wright's golden oecumene)).

Use your newfound lock on these super materials to start an enormous structure which anchors itself into the photosphere of a star (a balmy 5,500C) and encircles the star for a particle collider capable of mass production of exotic substances.

Mm, yes, I want to see a mod be able to implement things like this.


Thanks for the updates as always, Alex!
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Alex

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Re: Revisiting the Economy
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2018, 07:37:35 PM »

So I guess the real question is... how much will player skills effect things? We've seen that there are skills that boost colonies under direct management, but also that you can hire governors or have helpful AI buddies! Nothing bad can possibly happen.

Surveying is going to be important, obviously, but I'm not sure if max level will really be required - except for mineral powerhouses, the best worlds tend to be habitable, which can usually be surveyed with a rank or two. (I make a habit of checking the listed planets of unexplored systems I fly by - if I see a Terran I'll stop in and grab that juicy class 4 or 5 data. Come to think of it, should we know the class of the planets from hyperspace without doing a preliminary survey?).

If colonies are going to be the 'main' end game state for players I feel like new players should get a bit of a warning in some way, so that they can plan. It would be really frustrating to hit the level cap after having a merry time blowing everything up, say "Ok, I'll try colonies now.", and be unable to do so. Not a problem for second playthrough, but still.

Not quite ready to talk about the details, but yeah, I'd like to make sure that "no colony skills" is a way to go. Going with the idea that "all skills get you into combat, just differently", for example, colony skills might set you up with more/higher quality allies on your side, at the expense of some personal fleet strength. I'm not 100% sure if colonies will be necessary for the endgame or not - too many possible factors at this point, haven't figured it all out yet.

(Yyyyeah, totally shouldn't be able to see planet types for an unexplored system. Made a note, thanks!)



I've always wanted to be able to play a space sim game that had complex enough systems that it could interestingly replicate megastructures.

What I wouldn't give to be able to bootstrap up from melting nickel-iron and silicaceous asteroids down into molten globules, spinning them up (by using the same mirror array used to melt them to vaporize the edge and outjet a propulsive thrust) to separate them centrifugally into pure elements. Then conjoin those two discs of pure silicon and shiny metal into an enormous mirror. And then - repeat.

Mine an entire star system of all it's smaller than planetary bodies.

Find a small jovian and encircle the entire thing in a particle collider, using it to create beyond island of stability elements and degenerate matter (held together by the super science that is shield technology, of course (idea courtesy of john c. wright's golden oecumene)).

I got more of an "Inhibitors" (Alastair Reynolds) vibe from this, but yeah, I think that may be a bit much for the core game :)
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Linnis

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Re: Revisiting the Economy
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2018, 10:21:31 PM »

So with trade fleets causing upwards of two months of income damage if destroyed. Is there ways we can defend them without waiting for them to spawn and following them?

Also playing as trade fleet defending civ ships against attacks sounds fun.
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Megas

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Re: Revisiting the Economy
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2018, 07:23:59 AM »

If colonies are going to be the 'main' end game state for players I feel like new players should get a bit of a warning in some way, so that they can plan. It would be really frustrating to hit the level cap after having a merry time blowing everything up, say "Ok, I'll try colonies now.", and be unable to do so. Not a problem for second playthrough, but still.
This is the biggest trap for Electronic Warfare.  Player may grind away at pirates until level cap, then decides he is ready to fight others, but encounters Electronic Warfare.  Electronic Warfare 1 is the best defense against it, but player cannot get it if he is already at level cap and spent his points.

Having a similar problem with colonies would hurt, if gameplay progresses from privateering to governing, and the governing skills prove more useful after player hits level cap.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 07:26:09 AM by Megas »
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Alex

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Re: Revisiting the Economy
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2018, 09:20:12 AM »

So with trade fleets causing upwards of two months of income damage if destroyed. Is there ways we can defend them without waiting for them to spawn and following them?

Also playing as trade fleet defending civ ships against attacks sounds fun.

I'd imagine there would be some ways, but that it wouldn't be 100% guaranteed. Not quite ready talk about the details, though!

This is the biggest trap for Electronic Warfare.  Player may grind away at pirates until level cap, then decides he is ready to fight others, but encounters Electronic Warfare.  Electronic Warfare 1 is the best defense against it, but player cannot get it if he is already at level cap and spent his points.

Having a similar problem with colonies would hurt, if gameplay progresses from privateering to governing, and the governing skills prove more useful after player hits level cap.

There's a *big* difference between "my stuff is suboptimal" and "I'm stuck and can't progress". The occasional range penalty from not being able to counter an enemy commander's EW as efficiently as one might is firmly in the former category.

That said, EW-1 being that good is definitely a balance issue. Basically, the game would be fine if the player had no access to EW to begin with, but the level 1 perk is good enough that you'd always want to pick it up - the issue is that it's too good not to get, not that you can't do stuff if you don't get it.
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