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Author Topic: [0.9.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Update preview 6/24/20  (Read 298728 times)

Morrokain

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I wiped the mods and save folder.  They were all clean installs.

I think I put the Phase Teleporter on the Tyrant by mistake after I started experimenting with ways to balance it after the encounter.

I went with another clean install of the mod and added the Console Commands and SpeedUp mods so I could test out balance.

So some observations...
Ah gotcha! I appreciate the time you have taken to test for solutions to the issue you discovered. This helps me immensely! :)

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My initial experience between TriTach and the AC was something of a fluke.  I did replicate it again once with the Perseans.  It happens if the other side fields an overwhelming number of carriers.

The strike craft will push the phase ships back and keep them out of range, while the enemy fleet will be unable to catch the Tyrants.  This can cause the fight to stall out and become a war of CR attrition.  The Perseans were able to force a round 2 one time for this reason.  I also watched 3 full wings from Executors pound on a Tyrant for what must have been 2 minutes without getting through the armor.  There had been 3 Nightreavers, but they all reached 0 CR and started their slow retreat from near the Persean spawn point.  The Executors ignored them and flailed harmlessly at the Tyrant, which ended up outliving 2 of them despite being 1 on 3 for a hot minute.  Is this working as intended?
Certainly not! :-[ 0 CR-decided battles are the worst! The phase AI timidness I can do nothing about until the next update other than officer personality control for phase ship-heavy factions. However, making phase ships slower also makes them sitting ducks when confronted with equal odds or a good escort. They try and phase in - stall in the middle of indecision because shots are still being fired - and because they see no clean damage-free opening - they eventually either retreat at full flux and have to vent (gaining nothing and not solving the core problem in any way) or un-phase and immediately take critical hull damage without high armor. Similarly, without high armor, phase ships as a ship group are very, very vulnerable to strike craft. That being said, I think one issue I can gather from your experience is that there are less armor-breaking wing variants outside of high end wings. I'm hoping that gets addressed a bit through the recent carrier changes.

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After watching this, I switched the Tyrant's active system to plasma jets.  There seem to be a lot less lulls in the action this way.  Without the phase jumper, Tyrants would generally obliterate hapless Paragons in short order.  (The fabled dual tach lance paragons would shoot once thereby effectively committing seppuku.  They would immediately be fluxed out and blown up by Reaper torpedoes sometimes literally within about 5 seconds of getting on the map.)
Hmm, thanks for the input! I'm interested in the idea that Plasma Jets can make the Tyrant less annoying in AI vs AI fights while not being trivial to deal with from the player's perspective. I am assuming the tests are from a larger fleet perspective so I will test there first to assess that system's viability. The concept is certainly sound in that mobility is key. If that will prevent the issue of phase indecision without providing what is essentially damage immunity by jumping... that makes complete sense. I'll see how it works out as its a trivial change to make while I'm already testing things!

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The AC utterly wrecks the high tech and midline factions.  They completely curb stomped even the AO.  The AO had lost 7 Revenants before they killed their first capital (Nightreaver).  In the end, the AO losing 12 Revenants and 3 Megaliths in exchange for killing 1 Nightreaver and 1 Malevolent and forcing 1 Tyrant to retreat.  They usually end up camping TT, SC, AO, and PL at their spawn point.  Sometimes most of their losses were the result of 0 CR.

ThisShadeOfGreen's observations about Hegemony were correct.  Hegemony beat the AC in a fair fight.  It's a nearer thing, though.  While Onslaughts murder Tyrants like their name was Brutus, the Hegemony is poorly equipped to deal with Malevolents.  The fight ends up being mostly around the middle of the map.  I presume the results for LC and SD would be similar.

The Redacted are the exception to the above.  Their strike craft pose a threat to the Tyrants, and Radiants with Tach Lances are superior 1 on 1.  Although, I ended up watching 6 Brilliants spawn camp the AC like they were the AO.
Thanks for your observations on faction balance- this data will help in future updates as I consider faction vs faction strengths and weaknesses. Some things seem like more urgent things to be addressed, such as high tech considerations regarding the AC vs shield-based (it sounds like) factions, and I will try and look at them and assess if any changes should be made before the new update. I think this was based upon the above changes? Or was this experience just the general case outside of that?

I like the sound of the carrier changes quite a lot.

I guess it makes most of my research pointless.  Oh well.  ;D
Not at all, I always appreciate detail when regarding balance assessments. Your current experience (the clean install info is great to know, so thanks) can help me look at how to approach the next update's changes and potentially can help solve any underlying balance issues between factions, and additionally whether or not there is there any way to solve them through the new carrier framework, etc.
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basileus

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I did a few battles with the TriTach and Perseans before making the changes, but most of those results are with the Tyrants set to Plasma Jets.

I don't know that Plasma Jets are ideal, but high tech felt like the right option.  In general, I was just going for something that provided enhanced mobility with a slower cycle time than the phase jumper.

The carrier changes might help the overall balance, but I can't help but feel like the Nightreaver is the ship that will benefit the most... unless it doesn't count as high tech.  Well, OK the Megalith, so it might help balance the AO, and the AO probably should be a little stronger than the vanilla factions.

I think what's happening is this.  You are correct that phase ships need mobility or they are vulnerable; however, that is also true for high tech ships and is doubly true for the way that you tend to build high tech ships.

Your designs tend to favor the glass cannon approach.

This works fine against low tech because they are faster.  Against fast phase ships, its lethal.

Most of their big guns shoot in bursts or DOT beams.  The phase ships will immediately phase.  So the effective flux/damage ratio is probably 6+.  Not only do they get much worse flux efficiency against phase ships, they're also too slow to run away from them and the strike craft.  So what you are afraid will happen to the phase ships happens to the high tech ships.

Their flux bar fills up quickly.  They can't shoot.  They can't run.  They don't even have armor to speak of.  They just die ignominiously.

It seems like most of the ships have 2 aggressive; 1 balanced; and 1 support build.  The lack of defensive builds means that the strike variants have no one to go hide behind after they've filled up their own flux.

I feel like the Aurora / Odysseus / Revenant would all greatly benefit from a dedicated defensive build to serve as the anvil to all those hammers.

The teleporting Hyperion is also nice.  It creates space.  If the Hyperions are each drawing multiple ships away, then the rest of the fleet will naturally start to have the numbers advantage and focused fire needed for your strike doctrine to play out in practice.  You also need to kill quickly because Hyperions cannot be fielded for terribly long (and are prone to getting killed by reinforcements), so you had best start creating space the old fashioned way.  In this way, the role of the Hyperion is that of force multiplier for the rest of the fleet.  It works particularly well for the SciCorps because a) they have lacked a legendary hull; b) they lack a proper battleship to trade blows and need a different stratagem; and, c) the Odysseus is fast enough to both exploit the space that they create and move quickly between isolated battles.  They're pretty much built for the war of maneuver.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2020, 05:39:17 PM by basileus »
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DatonKallandor

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Can't wait to try those Strikecraft/Carrier changes. Has the potential to really feel a lot better than vanilla or current AO (and I'd already call current AO much better than vanilla).
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Minitialize

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This mod is very interesting... I'd love to use it right now, unfortunately however, my current playthrough revolves around my current choice of mods-- some of which may not complement this one very well (compatibility for one, the other, balance). I guess I'll just have to wait until you manage to flesh out the entire mod according to your to-do list or once I'm finally done with my playthrough. Keep up the good work, you're definitely doing great  ;)
« Last Edit: September 02, 2020, 07:21:30 AM by Minitialize »
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Morrokain

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I did a few battles with the TriTach and Perseans before making the changes, but most of those results are with the Tyrants set to Plasma Jets.

I don't know that Plasma Jets are ideal, but high tech felt like the right option.  In general, I was just going for something that provided enhanced mobility with a slower cycle time than the phase jumper.

The carrier changes might help the overall balance, but I can't help but feel like the Nightreaver is the ship that will benefit the most... unless it doesn't count as high tech.  Well, OK the Megalith, so it might help balance the AO, and the AO probably should be a little stronger than the vanilla factions.

I think what's happening is this.  You are correct that phase ships need mobility or they are vulnerable; however, that is also true for high tech ships and is doubly true for the way that you tend to build high tech ships.

Your designs tend to favor the glass cannon approach.

This works fine against low tech because they are faster.  Against fast phase ships, its lethal.

Most of their big guns shoot in bursts or DOT beams.  The phase ships will immediately phase.  So the effective flux/damage ratio is probably 6+.  Not only do they get much worse flux efficiency against phase ships, they're also too slow to run away from them and the strike craft.  So what you are afraid will happen to the phase ships happens to the high tech ships.

Their flux bar fills up quickly.  They can't shoot.  They can't run.  They don't even have armor to speak of.  They just die ignominiously.

It seems like most of the ships have 2 aggressive; 1 balanced; and 1 support build.  The lack of defensive builds means that the strike variants have no one to go hide behind after they've filled up their own flux.

I feel like the Aurora / Odysseus / Revenant would all greatly benefit from a dedicated defensive build to serve as the anvil to all those hammers.

I've got a mental note for a few things to add based upon this experience. That will include some defensive builds and probably a couple of new energy weapons to fill in some niches. Thanks again for the analysis.  :)

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The teleporting Hyperion is also nice.  It creates space.  If the Hyperions are each drawing multiple ships away, then the rest of the fleet will naturally start to have the numbers advantage and focused fire needed for your strike doctrine to play out in practice.  You also need to kill quickly because Hyperions cannot be fielded for terribly long (and are prone to getting killed by reinforcements), so you had best start creating space the old fashioned way.  In this way, the role of the Hyperion is that of force multiplier for the rest of the fleet.  It works particularly well for the SciCorps because a) they have lacked a legendary hull; b) they lack a proper battleship to trade blows and need a different stratagem; and, c) the Odysseus is fast enough to both exploit the space that they create and move quickly between isolated battles.  They're pretty much built for the war of maneuver.

I'm planning on giving the Sci-Corps a tanky high-tech battleship at some point to replace or at least compliment the Astral. Less damage potential than the Paragon, but more staying power. In this case, its shields will likely mimic the paragons strength, but comparably it will have fortress shield and higher overall armor. In part this is because the battlecruiser space is already fuller than the battleship space as far as capital ship options go in the TC. (Initial thoughts)

In that vein, I'm also planning on making a dedicated low tech capital carrier and a midline battleship as well.

I'm glad the jump system is good for the Hyperion though. I mostly worry about it suiciding itself using it. (Rather than the player abusing it - I think that is less likely.) It does have powerful shields, but being surrounded by large ships would present a serious problem considering the system's cooldown.

Can't wait to try those Strikecraft/Carrier changes. Has the potential to really feel a lot better than vanilla or current AO (and I'd already call current AO much better than vanilla).

Thanks! Hopefully that will prove true. I'm liking what I'm seeing through testing but testing everything will take some time. So I am trying to balance that (for overall quality) while not letting it take months to get the update finally out of the gate.

This mod is very interesting... I'd love to use it right now, unfortunately however, my current playthrough revolves around my current choice of mods-- some of which may not complement this one very well (compatibility for one, the other, balance). I guess I'll just have to wait until you manage to flesh out the entire mod according to your to-do list or once I'm finally done with my playthrough. Keep up the good work, you're definitely doing great  ;)

Thanks for the words of encouragement! :)

You are correct there are plenty of incompatibilities and balance considerations since this mod is a TC, so finish your playthrough and then revisit when you are ready to start a new campaign. There may even be a lot more content by that time who knows - and more customization features! I'm also trying to reduce incompatibility as much as possible, but balance will take quite a bit of time to address as far as releasing a more vanilla-oriented ship/weapon pack.
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Warnoise

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Hi, I am really interested in this mod, so I installled, and when i tried to launch a new game i get the below error

Spoiler
278336 [Thread-4] ERROR com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain  - java.lang.ClassCastException: com.fs.starfarer.api.impl.campaign.econ.impl.OrbitalStation cannot be cast to com.fs.starfarer.api.impl.campaign.econ.impl.OrbitalStationGD
java.lang.ClassCastException: com.fs.starfarer.api.impl.campaign.econ.impl.OrbitalStation cannot be cast to com.fs.starfarer.api.impl.campaign.econ.impl.OrbitalStationGD
   at data.scripts.GDModPlugin.onEnabled(GDModPlugin.java:160)
   at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.ModAndPluginData.notifyRunningWithMod(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.save.CampaignGameManager.super(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.title.TitleScreenState.dialogDismissed(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.ui.N.dismiss(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.ui.impl.K.dismiss(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.save.if.actionPerformed(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.ui.newnew.buttonPressed(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.ui.I.?00000(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.ui.I.processInput(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.ui.O0Oo.o00000(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.BaseGameState.traverse(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.state.AppDriver.begin(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain.main(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.StarfarerLauncher$1.run(Unknown Source)
   at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)
[close]

The list of mods that i am using:
Archean order 1..5
Better colonies
Combat chatter
Combat Analytics
Dassault Mikoyan 1.18
Diableavionics
GKsec
Graphicslab
LazyLib
Legacy of Arkogenesis
MagicLib
Nexelerin
ORA
tahlan
Tiandong Heavy industries 1.2.1a (disabled due to compatibility issues)
Vayra&s sector
Vayra&s ship pack
YRXP
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Morrokain

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Hi, I am really interested in this mod, so I installled, and when i tried to launch a new game i get the below error

*snip*

Hi there and sorry for the inconvenience! The mod causing that error is Better Colonies. If you disable it the others should work fine in the sense that there shouldn't be any crashes.

I'm hoping to resolve that problem, if possible, in the next update by no longer overriding the standard stations and replacing them on the campaign map instead. The only problem there is then I can't prevent the non-balanced stations from being build-able and so I have to account for that somehow.
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Albreo

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3jX3i79SUc

End game showcase with random core sector, pirate commission. The commission wide bounty payout should be bumped up a lot for pirate since I can't do normal bounties for they are all friendly. Getting paid 10,000 for an entire fleet is hardly sufficient for the repair cost but high tier weapon drops do sell for a lump sum.

Radiant suicide teleport should be delayed or have 2 charges at the start or instantly deploy shield and Brillant teleport ability should be changed to something else altogether. The teleport ability making it too hard to chase and kill fast Brilliant without OP ship like Tyrant.

Weapons that do require some nerf: Small Phase cannon, it has a characteristic of a long range burst weapon while flux free and I think it the best of all small weapons. So we should nerf it, too useful. Tri-Beam is too damn strong in a large number.

Weapons that would like some love: Tachyon Lance needs a rework, it's a suicide beam. Small Shattercell Cannon, unreliable performance in dealing with crafts also expensive. Three pulse cannons' green small bullet does not look threatening enough despite 250 damage each and might as well turn one into a proper burst weapon. Eclipse Cannon's flux cost should compromise between flux free phase cannon and Apocalypse Cannon at around 0.7-0.8 flux/damage, other weapons in the medium energy are way better option. Mining blaster is utterly OP expensive for its performance given. Terminator beam should be downgraded to medium mount. It's in no way a good large weapon and buffing it wouldn't look good on Onslaught XIV.

Energy weapon lacks more variety for large projectile weapons at the moment, maybe in a form of new remnant weapon. Apocalypse Cannon has to always fire in alternative mode to save AI from suicide.

Fighters that would like some love: most of the midline craft should have a small shield added. In a large fight, crafts with no shield just become potatoes. Less bullet for all projectile fighter my CPU can't handle it. There seem to be certain crafts that cause a lot of lag probably projectile or missile one. Wasp and Spectre are super potatoes, expensive potatoes. With new range reduction, it may be useful once more. I would hope for interceptor to only protect their own ship some what. Flash bomber is quite strong but at 30 OP no one can field it properly. Trident and Claw bomber are just bad. Goliath is great at tanking but DPS is underwhelming.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 05:52:42 AM by Albreo »
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basileus

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Fighters that would like some love: most of the midline craft should have a small shield added. In a large fight, crafts with no shield just become potatoes. Less bullet for all projectile fighter my CPU can't handle it. There seem to be certain crafts that cause a lot of lag probably projectile or missile one. Wasp and Spectre are super potatoes, expensive potatoes. With new range reduction, it may be useful once more. I would hope for interceptor to only protect their own ship some what. Flash bomber is quite strong but at 30 OP no one can field it properly. Trident and Claw bomber are just bad. Goliath is great at tanking but DPS is underwhelming.

I completely agree that some of the midline strikecraft need modest frontal shields.  I tried playing Persean, and I just hemorrhaged crew, even with recovery shuttles and all the skills.  It's a real problem since their fleet lineup is built around carriers.  I was going to say this in a post, but felt like I'd yammered on too much already.  They also lack a proper torpedo bomber, which makes the frailty an even bigger problem.

Also, some of the gunships/bombers are too slow, imo.  I have some fast capital ships intended to kill carriers and hunt things like the aforementioned Brilliants.  The trouble is the AI is beyond stupid, and my capital ships will run away from strikecraft and try to shoot them with long range capital weaponry.  So instead of following my eliminate order and going towards the carrier, they flee way away from the battle.  Helmsmanship 3 + Coordinated Maneuvers can make capital ships quite speedy.

E.G., (60 + 80) * 1.25 = 175.  Lots of the gunships and some of the bombers have speeds in the 170-190 range.  Even aggressive pilots with eliminate orders on the carrier will fly backwards and try to kill the gunships/bombers with, for instance, Atronarch beams.  If I don't make my ships this fast, then Radiants, Brilliants, and Tyrants become all kinds of annoying in exchange.  Since you're rebalancing strikecraft anyway, if even the slowest ones were over 210 in speed, it wouldn't be so bad.  They'd be able to close into PD range and die.

The Trident is pretty bad for something that's used so commonly.

The locust should also probably be looked at.  The active is great, but everything else about it is dreadful.  I get that you wouldn't want people deploying a bunch of them.  Raising the OP cost sufficiently could prevent people from mass deploying them instead of interceptors, while allowing it to be viable to field 1 on some ships.
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Morrokain

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@Albreo

Wow thank you for the video! I just watched a bit under half of it and it is very enlightening on endgame battles, etc!  ;D (I'll finish the rest of it later tonight)

Note: I see that you are using the combat speed up mod, and just be aware that it can make the AI a little wonky since things are going so fast and the AI can't take opportunity of certain windows (like shield flickering) as easily when that is active (per Alex iirc). I know that it would be pretty impossible to show all the content you did without it, but just keep that in mind as far as combat results since the game is not really meant to go that fast. For instance, I think some of those battles might have been a bit tougher otherwise - and I think I can visually see certain ships survive longer during some points where the battle seems to be going at a more normal pace. You have a lot of endgame experience though, so if you have played a lot without it on and that is not the case in your opinion let me know.

Re: General feedback from basileus and Albreo:

Thanks! (And always feel free to post what you think I truly don't mind even if I don't always agree with the opinion)

I'll start with the fighter rework suggestions.

I agree that gunships need to be faster and I've made some of them faster already. Thanks for the number I'll try and adjust a few on the slow side and scale the rest up even more.

(And I agree that the AI currently is really, really bad at handling fighters because it bases everything on a niche case that is specific only to vanilla. I've brought this point up to Alex a couple of times on the suggestion board, and iirc he thinks its necessary for ships to be defensive like this. Though I disagree, one point that could have been agreed upon is the aggressiveness of ships given an eliminate command. Since that command is player opted in, he might be more willing to look at that. I guess we will have to wait and see with the next update.)

A lot of the specific suggestions regarding wings have, coincidentally, mostly been looked at. Changes as I remember them:

 - Non-interceptor midline and low tech wings have a significantly more armor and a tiny bit more hull than before in some cases. Gunships, for instance, have like 4X more armor. So they will be tankier, but I'm hesitant to give them shields because A) thats more of a high tech thing and B) overloading the shields prevents the wing from doing its job and can actually make the wing worse unless the shield is very tough. If that doesn't help reduce crew consumption at endgame then I will look into further changes but it might be worth it to wait and see how it plays out.

 - Anti-wing heavy fighters should perform their role a bit better since I buffed their primary weapons so its not quite as much about the anti-fighter missiles. I'm not quite done testing there.

 - The Wasp has been given proximity mines and is now likely going to be a serious threat to other strike craft. Its OP has increased. I may buff the Spectre's defenses a bit and see how that works out. In small scale battles they are really good, but the Spark's shield probably gives it an edge. Their damage is probably fine they likely just die too easily in large battles when lots of projectiles are flying around and its harder to dodge even with phasing.

 - The locus has been changed to an EMP bomber instead of a defensive wing. It is now a Legendary wing. Its PD Burst Beam now acts as a light deterrent to interceptors. I may give it some missiles, but its EMP is surprisingly good at locking down and dealing fairly significant damage when there are a lot of them. Combine them with kinetic strike craft and you have a great utility bomber from what I have seen.

 - I agree with the dps of the Trident and the Goliath. I think making their pulse cannon weapons focus more on ships will help make this feel better, but I may change those weapons' firing patterns to make them more burst-oriented since they have to reload their rockets. I may add a second rocket battery to each of them as well. I haven't tested it enough yet to know for sure if its needed.

 - I added ~8 or so more wings - including the first Legendary wing - the Apocrypha - which is unattached to a faction and can't be found in markets. It has to be found as a Legendary blueprint or, eventually, salvaged from a boss bounty that uses them - which would be an endgame thing. Players are likely to not even see one in a play-through so finding the blueprint should be special.

 - The problem with reducing bullet count with strike craft is they become a lot less accurate and it seriously effects interceptors ability to do their job. I noticed your battle size is pretty high, so reducing it would probably help your CPU.

Weapons:

 - I'll take a look at the suggestions and I have a few ideas for the variety issues with energy weapons. I'm not sure if new weapons will make it into the update or not, but they are on my mind and it could happen.

 - I really do disagree with the analysis of the Terminator Beam. I think it's a great weapon because of the beam speed. The player, specifically, can really abuse shield flickering and sneak in some heavy armor damage. The real issue with the weapon is that the AI isn't always efficient with it. The Burst Siege Beam has the same issue, actually. It's good when it hits its intended defense type.

 - Tachyon Lance already has some changes. Hopefully it will make the AI a bit better with it. From the video, part of the issue it's bad is the jump from the Radiant putting it immediately under fire since the Radiant is trying to attack the enemy ship's engines. Since I'm changing that up already, that might help too on the primary ship that uses it. I honestly think the weapon is pretty good on a Malevolent or - in the next update - the Executor since that ship's flux stats have been buffed and it will likely have some more OP.
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DatonKallandor

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Yeah the speedup mod screws up the game. Not only the AI, but you also get projectiles jumping over shields or their targets. Missiles and strikecraft skipping through PD, shots through shields or deeper into armor messing with the damage distribution. Basically, don't use it if you want a legit fight.
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Albreo

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Yeah the speedup mod screws up the game. Not only the AI, but you also get projectiles jumping over shields or their targets. Missiles and strikecraft skipping through PD, shots through shields or deeper into armor messing with the damage distribution. Basically, don't use it if you want a legit fight.

It is indeed but it's more of a double edge increasing risk on both sides (even some of my ships got torped all over the hull). I wouldn't consider it as cheating unless someone really intended to exploit from that. At x2, it's barely noticeable but more than that, if the CPU can't keep up, some missile will even stop functioning. But as I already know the outcome of the battle at heart, I wouldn't care much. For a usual fair fight, I will have to slow down to micro a bit.

Quote
Note: I see that you are using the combat speed up mod, and just be aware that it can make the AI a little wonky since things are going so fast and the AI can't take opportunity of certain windows (like shield flickering) as easily when that is active (per Alex iirc). I know that it would be pretty impossible to show all the content you did without it, but just keep that in mind as far as combat results since the game is not really meant to go that fast. For instance, I think some of those battles might have been a bit tougher otherwise - and I think I can visually see certain ships survive longer during some points where the battle seems to be going at a more normal pace. You have a lot of endgame experience though, so if you have played a lot without it on and that is not the case in your opinion let me know.

I did intermittently secretly crank the speed up to x8 sometime when there's nothing to worry about. Lol, sorry. The video was only intended to report the problem of Radiant teleport suicide. Other than that, it was just me having some fun. If you are interested in a long tough fight, I might be able to arrange some. All my ship was designed to be able to 1v1 standard Paragon at leisure, even my Onslaught can do it with almost no damage no captain. The Tyrants were designed to be able to solo 5+ capitals at once cosider how fast and cheating it is. If you look at the battle report that I sometimes showed, a single Tyrant can contribute up to 33%, that's 1/3 of the battle, not consider that I have 4 of the same copies, so, what I show is more subtle but I did post one on my Tyrant build. And to answer your question, I usually paly with x2 in a tough battle and that won't mess with the combat much.

Oh and I play with max 500 DP. Lower than that and I won't get out numbered much and can even cheese some hard battle. But only with 500DP in this mod that has the lag though. In other moded games, it wasn't even this laggy.

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I agree that gunships need to be faster and I've made some of them faster already. Thanks for the number I'll try and adjust a few on the slow side and scale the rest up even more.

I saw some gunship, actually Trident, that slow and has very slow acceleration. It can't stop in time and has to fly through a capital ship without being able to fire at it.

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I added ~8 or so more wings - including the first Legendary wing - the Apocrypha - which is unattached to a faction and can't be found in markets. It has to be found as a Legendary blueprint or, eventually, salvaged from a boss bounty that uses them - which would be an endgame thing. Players are likely to not even see one in a play-through so finding the blueprint should be special.

Do make it very cheaty for the hardship it worth.

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Tachyon Lance already has some changes. Hopefully it will make the AI a bit better with it. From the video, part of the issue it's bad is the jump from the Radiant putting it immediately under fire since the Radiant is trying to attack the enemy ship's engines. Since I'm changing that up already, that might help too on the primary ship that uses it. I honestly think the weapon is pretty good on a Malevolent or - in the next update - the Executor since that ship's flux stats have been buffed and it will likely have some more OP.

I actually put one on my Malevolent. One is the most the capital ship should use. Two, it starts to not look so good on flux. And no, the Radiant jump was not contributed much by the Tachlance. It's just pure 1v3, 1v5. It can not keep up, in any situation, from ganging without proper small ships support and can't get itself out either as teleport is on cooldown.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 10:21:10 AM by Albreo »
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basileus

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All those changes sound great!  Boosting armor over adding shields makes sense.

Are you adding boss bounty mechanics or is that an integration with Vayra's Sector?  I haven't used that mod yet.

The Tyrants were designed to be able to solo 5+ capitals at once cosider how fast and cheating it is. If you look at the battle report that I sometimes showed, a single Tyrant can contribute up to 33%, that's 1/3 of the battle

Oh and I play with max 500 DP. Lower than that and I won't get out numbered much and can even cheese some hard battle. But only with 500DP in this mod that has the lag though. In other moded games, it wasn't even this laggy.
Do you think the Tyrant's DP cost should be raised?  That's one approach to balancing it without nerfing it as a player ship.

With a smaller battle size, you can use a proportionally smaller fleet and still get outnumbered.

Re: Tach Lance

In my experience, the dual TL Paragon almost never gets to fire them more than once, and sometimes doesn't even fire them once.

Aside from the super carriers, there is one ship that can use one and not necessarily be made worse: The Odysseus.  It has so few M/L hardpoints and some of them are at poor angles. 

Ion Beam in the front L.  TL in the other.  Thunderbolts on the lateral Ms.  Some Longbow wings.  There you go, a sniper.  Be careful not to give it auxiliary weapons that will encourage the pilot to enter CQB.

The fact that the Odysseus costs more DP than either the Revenant or Conquest would make it dubious to deploy if there weren't other reasons to have one or two in your fleet.

I tested this build out.  It's OK.  Although, I used Concentrated + Frontal Shield cheese to help with the flux.  I do that with almost every high tech ship with a frontal shield.  Why would you not abuse that?

Other than Typhoon Atropos and Squalls, I've started to avoid using missiles entirely, except by way of Dagger bombers.  Still, if you put anything other than PD or Thunderbolts/Widows in those lateral Ms, they'll almost never get used.  If you're making a sniper, no need to go crazy on PD.
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Morrokain

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@Albreo

Oh yeah its still a fun video to watch and there are plenty of things I can get from it that's definitely true, I was only pointing out that I can't consider it a controlled test for all purposes. The Radiant jump system seems to be a detriment in the worst case scenario and simply annoying to the player (rather than a unique challenge) in the best case scenario... I'm learning that jump systems as they operate currently are unfortunately not very viable on ships that aren't rare frigates. (So really just the Hyperion.)

Something will be done to make the Remnant battleship more fearsome and less gimicky. I'm just not sure what yet. I may build a completely new system if it comes to that. I also really ought to add a Remnant super carrier to mix up Ordo fleet compositions a bit so they are less predictable on the strategic level.

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I usually paly with x2 in a tough battle and that won't mess with the combat much.

Even that will affect things like shield flickering and ability of the AI to respond to overloads, etc, but to a lesser degree so it might not necessarily be as obvious. It's not a bad thing, it's just a consideration to be made.

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Oh and I play with max 500 DP. Lower than that and I won't get out numbered much and can even cheese some hard battle. But only with 500DP in this mod that has the lag though. In other moded games, it wasn't even this laggy.

Not surprising, unfortunately. The design of the mod means that inherently less ships can be on screen because they have more weapons/fighters and so a lot more calculations are being done at any given frame. I am even considering removing some of the fighter-based systems because they impact performance more profoundly as battles scale, but I haven't really settled on a decision or alternative there yet or even whether its truly necessary. I'm hoping that limiting them to larger ships will be enough.

One thing I think will help, though, is the new way DP will be calculated in the next Starsector update. I think it might make battle size scale a little better than it currently does.

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I saw some gunship, actually Trident, that slow and has very slow acceleration. It can't stop in time and has to fly through a capital ship without being able to fire at it.

Do make (the Apocrypha) very cheaty for the hardship it worth.

Agreed and its the perfect time to try and make gunships like the Trident feel a little better to use when making a comparison to projectile/torpedo bombers. Still working the out all the details there.

Re: Apocrypha - trust me, it will be worth it to find any "lost" Legendary things. I don't want to spoil it so I won't give any specific details of lore or loadout, but I will say you have to sacrifice most of the Atral's OP to even equip all hangars with them (I don't think converted hangars is even possible but can't remember if I verified it) but doing so can sometimes kill an un-officered stock conquest in a single attack run.

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I actually put (Tachyon Lance) on my Malevolent. One is the most the capital ship should use. Two, it starts to not look so good on flux. And no, the Radiant jump was not contributed much by the Tachlance. It's just pure 1v3, 1v5. It can not keep up, in any situation, from ganging without proper small ships support and can't get itself out either as teleport is on cooldown.

Just for clarity I was only speaking to the Tachyon Lance performance not the Radiant performance. It didn't matter what weapons the Radiant had, it was surrounded by Tyrants and this is pre-defense buff! :D So yeah definitely considering other systems. I honestly kind of like the idea of a combination of Micro Burner and High Energy Focus to create a unique battle charge without the typical weakness of something like Burn Drive.

@basileus

I'm not sure how I'm going to implement boss bounties yet. I know there is a separate boss bounty mod as well, and I'm also not sure what else Vayra's Sector does. So I could go with either of those or make my own system. There are lots of considerations there and I haven't mapped them all out yet.

Tachyon Lance: As long as firing once is impactful, that's not so bad. The question is, how often is it impactful? I'm guessing probably not as much I want it to be. Hmm, maybe I'll make some damage/cooldown/flux tradeoffs and maybe give it a little more OP to balance the idea that it can be used more often.

Odyssey: Interesting that might make for another unique boss encounter. As for the missile slots, I've seen it use Harpoons and Sabots fairly liberally as well - though it often waits for an active overload in the case of Harpoons. Another good one would be Hunter LRMs but they are a pretty lackluster missile option when not concentrated. They are decent at pressuring frigates though. I have made some changes to that ship btw. Both that and the Apogee got some significant buffs iirc but I'd have to check the notes.

Concentrated + Front Shield: Yeah I really should make those exclusive from one another. It's pretty abuse-able.
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Albreo

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Another video with NO SPEED UP this time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJbEFU1Qh2I

Do you think the Tyrant's DP cost should be raised?  That's one approach to balancing it without nerfing it as a player ship.

With a smaller battle size, you can use a proportionally smaller fleet and still get outnumbered.

Tyrant DP... maybe it should? I'm not too sure as this ship can have a very very wide performance range depending on the user customization. It can be an utter crap run away from everything to a berserk ship that disregards your command. It can be dealt with easily with fighters swarm often time. I think someone did complain about how frustrating it is. As it will be a lot harder to find in the future patch, it might as well stay a bit special. The normal loadout performance of Tyrant apart form this exception Zero flux build should be more in line with Paragon, that's 40 against 38 DP, alas with no better test ship than Tachlance Paragon I can't say much but Tyrant is stronger in 1v1 (even Onslaught is stronger than that Paragon with correct mods lol). If consider nerfing it, I would go for its zero flux speed boost and Armored weapon mount for that massive 20% armor boost.

For battle size, yes, it will be proportional but you actually get a lot more breathing room for your ships. The enemy reinforcement will come in trickle, so you can deal with the front in a more manageable manner. But in a massive battle situation, the instant the ship is down, ships at the back that piled up can immediately replace its position and you will have no time to vent flux but be pushed back. The number of fighter and bomber that can engage you double or triple. Also, as the ship pile will be very dense, the risk is increased immensely as you can be gang without notice if you have low battle awareness.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 10:09:35 PM by Albreo »
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