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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: [0.95.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - *hotfix* 4/14/22  (Read 722744 times)

Morrokain

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No idea if it happens with other missions as I'd only just started a new game and played for 15 minutes and I haven't played since I encountered the issue :)

Hah I can't say I blame you there. :) I'm truly sorry the first experience was an immediate bug. That is the risk one takes when they do a compatibility update without multiple polish/test iterations. :-X


Thanks the picture helped, and unfortunately, more may be at play here. It doesn't look like the mission character is even there, though it could be it works differently from the last update, with which I am more familiar at the moment.

I tried to reproduce your delivery bug last night and couldn't get a delivery mission to spawn despite having two freighters and plenty of credits  ::)

Minor campaign content spoilers below:
Spoiler
I did, however, confirm that you can still give station commanders A.I cores and accept commissions like before, and finally did a test run against a derelict to test blueprint spawning. The loot seemed decent for a first run.
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Quote
Btw you should ask them to update the mod sticky as it still says your mod is not 0.9 compatible.

Oh, thanks no I didn't realize. If the topic is still open I'll ask but to be honest with the bugs reported... I may wait until the next update.

This has been kind of a trial run update, anyway, due to time constraints.

Fun mod, nice change of pace.

Thanks! :)

Quote
A few bugs/issues Ive seen:

Wolf seems imbalanced, I started with 80 of 50 op....also it feels like it has too many mounts given its OP.

I bought a hammerhead and it had ghost mounts ballistic/hybrid, and i could add a weapon to one mount and it "teleported" to another spot? Weird...

What operating system are you using? These sound like file merging issues with mod_info.json's replace array.

If you aren't on Windows, maybe even specifically Windows 10 (what I test on), that may be a base Starsector bug that is going to be corrected in the next official update. I will double check on my end to be sure, however. There are.. a lot.. of files to replace and it is very possible I missed some.

If time, what start did you choose? The standard bounty hunter? Or was it a wolf variant in one of the faction start's fleets? This will help me narrow it down and confirm if it works on my end or not.

Quote
I seem to be getting negative faction hits alot from just carting around normal pirate drops. (from bounty hunting)

Hm, weird, any chance for more info? What faction/factions, and in what context? You are getting chased down for contraband, or the campaign engine is just giving you rep hits like you are smuggling and they find out after the fact?

Even better would be a screenshot of your cargo so I can see if there is anything there that would cause that to happen.
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Morrokain

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I wanted to post a follow up to the missions issue.

It looks like Rules has changed how missions are turned in from markets to be planet level instead of commboard level.

I know it will affect a lot of missions, so sorry about that. The campaign may be limited to mostly bounties and derelicts for now.

I need to do some serious Rules work to get that sorted out, because it will have to be corrected for each faction too. To do this, I will go ahead and bite the bullet and format it so it can be read by the new tool and make things easier in the long run.
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Bishi

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Ah thanks for the update, i'll wait until this is fixed then. Good luck! :)
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Noomsy

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Quote
What operating system are you using? These sound like file merging issues with mod_info.json's replace array.

If you aren't on Windows, maybe even specifically Windows 10 (what I test on), that may be a base Starsector bug that is going to be corrected in the next official update. I will double check on my end to be sure, however. There are.. a lot.. of files to replace and it is very possible I missed some.


Hmmm I noticed these on my Macbook Pro so OSX. I haven't used those ships on my desktop (Win 10) so that sounds pretty likely.

Quote
If time, what start did you choose? The standard bounty hunter? Or was it a wolf variant in one of the faction start's fleets? This will help me narrow it down and confirm if it works on my end or not.

Standard bounty hunter start. But maybe it's related to the above merge issue.

I'll have to play some more to see if I can get better repro steps on the faction hits. It just stuck out to me because I had no illegal cargo and less then 150 units of space, so i was barely carrying anything. (lotta small weapons i guess, not sure how that system works))

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Morrokain

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Ah thanks for the update, i'll wait until this is fixed then. Good luck! :)

Np!, and hopefully fairly soon, but I want the next update to feel a little more polished. :)

Hmmm I noticed these on my Macbook Pro so OSX. I haven't used those ships on my desktop (Win 10) so that sounds pretty likely.

Standard bounty hunter start. But maybe it's related to the above merge issue.

I'll have to play some more to see if I can get better repro steps on the faction hits. It just stuck out to me because I had no illegal cargo and less then 150 units of space, so i was barely carrying anything. (lotta small weapons i guess, not sure how that system works))

Ok that helps, and just to be safe, I'll check, but yeah likely the said issue. It hopefully won't be an issue for long.

On the faction hits-- there are some less tolerant factions in the sector in this mod, for instance, who are very easily provoked, so I was wondering if that was the case. I'll keep a look out for that behavior and see if it is expected or not as I test play! :)
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Noomsy

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So looking at the mod_info.json...

I looked at replace and noticed \\ was being used as a separator for file paths.
I replaced them all with / and it appears to work fine now. (Weapon slots match the .ship info)

Not really sure what that means....something is probably horribly broken somewhere....
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Morrokain

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So looking at the mod_info.json...

I looked at replace and noticed \\ was being used as a separator for file paths.
I replaced them all with / and it appears to work fine now. (Weapon slots match the .ship info)

Not really sure what that means....something is probably horribly broken somewhere....

Oh good, glad that worked for you!

Its just that your operating system has different escape characters that the game recognizes that is different from windows.

For instance:           "data\\campaign\\econ/askonia.json",

does't work unless that specific path format is used.

          "data\\campaign\\econ\\askonia.json",
or
          "data/campaign/econ/askonia.json",

won't replace the file. No crashes, but those weird glitches you saw happen.
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Morbo513

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Re: [0.9a] TC: Archean Order: Star-Wars-Inspired Combat/RPG (v1.3.0) Update 1/19
« Reply #247 on: February 02, 2019, 05:35:54 AM »

Ed: Ignore, did a fresh install and it's all good


I get a crash on trying to start a new game. AO is the only mod running.

Code
75435 [Thread-4] INFO  com.fs.graphics.TextureLoader  - Cleaned buffer for texture graphics/particlealpha32sq.png (using cast)
75466 [Thread-10] INFO  sound.public  - Creating streaming player for music with id [MainTheme01.ogg]
75467 [Thread-10] INFO  sound.H  - Playing music with id [MainTheme01.ogg]
79774 [Thread-4] INFO  com.fs.starfarer.campaign.save.CampaignGameManager  - Reading save data from [..\saves\save_OsirisLee_8077689570174871142\descriptor.xml]
81265 [Thread-8] INFO  sound.public  - Cleaning up music with id [MainTheme01.ogg]
81475 [Thread-10] INFO  sound.public  - Creating streaming player for music with id [MainTheme01.ogg]
81475 [Thread-10] INFO  sound.H  - Playing music with id [MainTheme01.ogg]
81635 [Thread-4] ERROR com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain  - java.lang.NullPointerException
java.lang.NullPointerException
at com.fs.starfarer.Object.int.o00000(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.combat.ai.missile.MirvAI.checkSplit(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.combat.ai.missile.MirvAI.advance(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatEngine.advanceInner(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatEngine.advance(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.title.TitleScreenState.advance(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.BaseGameState.traverse(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.state.AppDriver.begin(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain.main(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.StarfarerLauncher$1.run(Unknown Source)
at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)

I'm re-downloading the game though, I'm not sure if I'm on a slightly older version of 0.9
« Last Edit: February 02, 2019, 05:49:16 AM by Morbo513 »
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.9a] TC: Archean Order: Star-Wars-Inspired Combat/RPG (v1.3.0) Update 1/19
« Reply #248 on: February 02, 2019, 10:26:56 AM »

Ed: Ignore, did a fresh install and it's all good

Glad that did it. :)

------------------------------

So quick question for anyone who has been playing this mod for a while in .8, did anyone happen to find and read the secret story text back in the starting zone? Please! No spoilers here! Just a simple "I found it" or "yes" will do. :D

I ask because it may be relevant to the next update. I would kind of be surprised if anyone did, as it is about as far out of the way and hidden as it gets. Hints on how to find it in the spoiler below:

Spoiler

It won't happen if you "Advanced Start" the campaign, and you have to wait ~30 in-game days before it will trigger something back in the starting zone. Another hint in spoiler:

Spoiler

If you know about the memorial and who wrote it then you've found it.
[close]

[close]
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Morbo513

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Re: [0.9a] TC: Archean Order: Star-Wars-Inspired Combat/RPG (v1.3.0) Update 1/19
« Reply #249 on: February 03, 2019, 03:30:58 PM »

Alright, couple real issues this time.
In attempting to speak to a mercenary officer on Ilys, the only option I get is "A former Templar of the Archean Order? Interesting...". I cannot exit the dialogue, and it says IndexOutOfBoundsException: Index: 1, Size: 1 three times. I am running with Common Radar, Leading Pip and LazyLib (All latest versions).

Another issue I had earlier was in accepting a bar quest to deliver food to the same planet, I get no option to deliver the goods on reaching the destination. Job was to deliver 80, it gave me 80.
Not sue if it's anything to do with the planet or what.
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.9a] TC: Archean Order: Star-Wars-Inspired Combat/RPG (v1.3.0) Update 1/19
« Reply #250 on: February 03, 2019, 04:01:29 PM »

Alright, couple real issues this time.
In attempting to speak to a mercenary officer on Ilys, the only option I get is "A former Templar of the Archean Order? Interesting...". I cannot exit the dialogue, and it says IndexOutOfBoundsException: Index: 1, Size: 1 three times. I am running with Common Radar, Leading Pip and LazyLib (All latest versions).

Another issue I had earlier was in accepting a bar quest to deliver food to the same planet, I get no option to deliver the goods on reaching the destination. Job was to deliver 80, it gave me 80.
Not sue if it's anything to do with the planet or what.

Sorry about that, both of those are known issues being currently resolved. It is because the way Rules handles those events has been changed and I didn't catch it for the last update.

You will only be able to do bounties/commissions and derelict runs to get colonies/faction rep up this update. Trading and bar missions and mercs from new factions won't work this update.

You can still turn in cores to base commanders (verified) and should be able to hire officers and administrators from the base factions colonies though.

As a status update on that, btw, I have officially formatted the file for SafariJohn's Rule Tool. So that should make things quite a bit easier, putting it lightly.
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Morbo513

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Re: [0.9a] TC: Archean Order: Star-Wars-Inspired Combat/RPG (v1.3.0) Update 1/19
« Reply #251 on: February 03, 2019, 05:18:38 PM »

Awesome, glad to hear it.

I will say I find the early-game very difficult to enjoy in this mod. The only real reason being how fighter-heavy it is even small-scale, and I've never liked how fighers worked in SS to begin with, especially with how AI responds to them. I really like the diversity in weapons and the general pace of things though. One of the bigger factors in that is how rare PD weapons seem to be (I imagine this is also something to do with 0.9 migration), compared to how essential they are in mitigating fighter attacks. With the number of ships able to launch fighters, it might be interesting to give most ships (particularly those without fighter bays) some built-in token anti-fighter PD. That way, ships that are meant for picking on someone their own size (or larger) are more than practically defenceless, but they would still need to sacrifice weapon slots and flux generation to be effective against fighters.
I think greater diversity in PD/anti-fighter weaponry would help too. I'm not sure how feasible it'd be but I'd like to see a swarm-missile launcher that specifically has its missiles attack different targets to one another as an example.
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.9a] TC: Archean Order: Star-Wars-Inspired Combat/RPG (v1.3.0) Update 1/19
« Reply #252 on: February 03, 2019, 07:46:12 PM »

^
Thank you I really appreciate this sort of feedback, and I believe it is the second of that kind lately, so that will definitely require some followup investigation.

Unfortunately, since Archean Order doesn't currently do much to add weapons or fighters to markets, and relies on the base game code to do that, changes in updates like this can have unintended consequences.

I think the changes to fighters take some getting used to even without an unintended problem like that. They are more numerous across ship hulls and are present in most, if not all battles, so having adequate defense against them is priority, especially early on, like you said. They are the most punishing of all the weapons at the AI's disposal in the beginning since they have the farthest effective range and can be massed on single targets.

This will actually get worse in the next update too, because I will have added ~10 additional wing types to better differentiate faction fighters... so yeah, that is definitely a problem.

Would you mind clarifying a few points so I know I am on the same page as you in what you are experiencing?

What faction start or starts have you tried, and what would you define as early game? -Anything before a cruiser, for instance, or anything before high faction rep/commission, etc. That will tell me how widespread this is and whether the above solutions would be sufficient.

If it is just a matter of getting the player off the ground, so to speak, then that is one thing. If it is a deeper problem before colonies, that will require more effort and a different solution implementation.

------
I am hesitant to go the built in PD route because it forces certain play-styles or bullet effects too much and I want to try and keep that as customize-able as possible.

Maybe I am picky, but I absolutely hate it when I'm partially forced down a style path. If I want all my bullets green, or blue, or white, or any combination of above, I should be able to do so in the majority of circumstances. So in respect of that I want to at least try alternatives first.

I definitely like the missile idea, and that would be a great change for a couple of the existing ones too.

I can also think of a few things that may help as well:

1) Finally getting the tutorial finished so the player starts fighting pirates with a decent fleet and with a stockpile of weapons. This also includes adding more to the basic start's cargo if a player chooses to skip the tutorial.

2) Include a small stockpile of weapons and lowtech fighters in each campaign start. Here you run into the problem of having to tell the player about them, so it would require some tutorial-like scripting for each start, but that wouldn't be terrible.

3) Including a couple light carriers of some kind in each start to ensure a small and weak, yet present, fighter screen is available right away.

4) In addition to the above, more effective examples and strategies in the Tactics Manual to better prepare new players for fighter assaults and harassment. Specifically, knowing what you can and cannot take on early, and how to prepare for what you realistically can fight.

Part of the problem, though certainly not all of it, may be that in comparison to vanilla, some players may be inadvertently tricked into thinking they can handle more pirates than would typically be safe in the fleet they are commanding (not saying that is the case here, but that it may the case for others who never got to the point where they would post about it).

Pirates actually aren't the lowest tier enemy and aren't even necessarily what I designed to be a Player's easiest first target. Small frigate/single destroyer fleets maybe, but those are mostly only found in the starting zones.

Derelicts are actually the intended lowest-tier easy pickings, and they never have fighters. Pirates are just above that, but they are designed to be dangerous and scary to a new player when outnumbering them, which is one of the reasons why I introduced a feature to help avoid combat sometimes (bribery/cease-fire).

In my bias as creator and balancer, I instinctively know what I can deal with, but it can be hard to effectively translate what is safe and not safe in general descriptions and the manual's tips.

Another tip while I am thinking about it:
One of the things I notice, myself, is that when you try to fly a fleet without any fighters of your own to counter/defend enemy fighter strikes, it can be really rough going in the beginning. Once you get higher tier PD it becomes more feasible, but even a single wing or two to distract long enough for flux to vent can be the difference between winning and losing. The Hound and Cerberus are a good early choices specifically for their built-in Light PD Drones to provide a bit of cover. But they are extremely fragile, so having a Talon wing or two to support is ideal.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2019, 07:51:31 PM by Morrokain »
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Morbo513

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Re: [0.9a] TC: Archean Order: Star-Wars-Inspired Combat/RPG (v1.3.0) Update 1/19
« Reply #253 on: February 04, 2019, 08:20:32 AM »

Quote
What faction start or starts have you tried, and what would you define as early game? -Anything before a cruiser, for instance, or anything before high faction rep/commission, etc. That will tell me how widespread this is and whether the above solutions would be sufficient.
I'd define early-game as the period before the player's able to sustain at least one cruiser and a handful of destroyers - which usually necessitates either a colony or a commission.
As for faction starts, I've not tried any. I've only done the basic start that begins with you orbiting Jangala.



But the biggest issue I have overall, is it seems to make battles much more about the comparative size of your and your opponent's fleets and how many ships are able to field fighters; they severely limit how much the player's decision-making within a battle can influence its outcome. In other words, the threat of ships being mobbed by fighters is much greater than the firepower of any one ship alone. So it becomes more about countering that threat with PD or matching/exceeding it with your own fighters, than out-maneuvering or isolating parts of the enemy fleet.

Typically the player finds themself fighting fleets larger than their own, so more often than not you'll be fighting battles where the enemy has more fighter wings than you have ships and fighter wings, more or less incapacitating your fleet; they're either equipped well enough to counter the swarms in which case they won't stand up well to the enemy's non-carrier ships, or vice-versa. So the only optimal solution there is to ensure you have many more fighters than your enemy can deal with.

To sum it up even further, compared to vanilla it's much less likely you can win (without cheesing) against a numerically superior enemy, or lose against a numerically inferior enemy, simply because of the effectiveness of fighters per-OP compared to any other weapon, and how prevalent they are in this mod.

The idea behind built-in PD was a bad one really, like you say it'd probably end up railroading those ships into anti-fighter roles. So instead; A point-defence hullmod. For ~8OP (Frigate), the ship's hull is fitted with several small-calibre PD weapons (less effective than any given weapon-mount PD turret) at the expense of increased crew requirements. There could be several different variants of this - Beam (Energy) weapons with high accuracy and good damage, but weak ROF and flux generation; Ballistic weapons with area-of-effect, but a long reload time between magazines (Flak); Smaller ballistic weapons with weak damage and middling accuracy, but high sustained ROF (CIWS); EMP weapons with high flux generaion and weak damage, but a decent ROF and accuracy.
Another idea is a weapon-mount PD that's an "active" countermeasure; It spits out explosives (or an EMP variant) in a 360deg arc and detonates them after they reach some distance from the ship.
Something else is the fact that fighters are able to shoot down most missiles. Again not sure as to the feasibility of this, but rendering them only able to destroy (Not just target, but actually hit) torpedos would help balance them out.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 08:43:10 AM by Morbo513 »
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verlonxx

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Re: [0.9a] TC: Archean Order: Star-Wars-Inspired Combat/RPG (v1.3.0) Update 1/19
« Reply #254 on: February 05, 2019, 05:01:09 AM »

Quote
What faction start or starts have you tried, and what would you define as early game? -Anything before a cruiser, for instance, or anything before high faction rep/commission, etc. That will tell me how widespread this is and whether the above solutions would be sufficient.
I'd define early-game as the period before the player's able to sustain at least one cruiser and a handful of destroyers - which usually necessitates either a colony or a commission.
As for faction starts, I've not tried any. I've only done the basic start that begins with you orbiting Jangala.



But the biggest issue I have overall, is it seems to make battles much more about the comparative size of your and your opponent's fleets and how many ships are able to field fighters; they severely limit how much the player's decision-making within a battle can influence its outcome. In other words, the threat of ships being mobbed by fighters is much greater than the firepower of any one ship alone. So it becomes more about countering that threat with PD or matching/exceeding it with your own fighters, than out-maneuvering or isolating parts of the enemy fleet.

Typically the player finds themself fighting fleets larger than their own, so more often than not you'll be fighting battles where the enemy has more fighter wings than you have ships and fighter wings, more or less incapacitating your fleet; they're either equipped well enough to counter the swarms in which case they won't stand up well to the enemy's non-carrier ships, or vice-versa. So the only optimal solution there is to ensure you have many more fighters than your enemy can deal with.

To sum it up even further, compared to vanilla it's much less likely you can win (without cheesing) against a numerically superior enemy, or lose against a numerically inferior enemy, simply because of the effectiveness of fighters per-OP compared to any other weapon, and how prevalent they are in this mod.

The idea behind built-in PD was a bad one really, like you say it'd probably end up railroading those ships into anti-fighter roles. So instead; A point-defence hullmod. For ~8OP (Frigate), the ship's hull is fitted with several small-calibre PD weapons (less effective than any given weapon-mount PD turret) at the expense of increased crew requirements. There could be several different variants of this - Beam (Energy) weapons with high accuracy and good damage, but weak ROF and flux generation; Ballistic weapons with area-of-effect, but a long reload time between magazines (Flak); Smaller ballistic weapons with weak damage and middling accuracy, but high sustained ROF (CIWS); EMP weapons with high flux generaion and weak damage, but a decent ROF and accuracy.
Another idea is a weapon-mount PD that's an "active" countermeasure; It spits out explosives (or an EMP variant) in a 360deg arc and detonates them after they reach some distance from the ship.
Something else is the fact that fighters are able to shoot down most missiles. Again not sure as to the feasibility of this, but rendering them only able to destroy (Not just target, but actually hit) torpedos would help balance them out.

i can agree with this i just played this mod its hard to get income as well during the start. the pirate bounties are really tough with all those fighters. I was hoping a bit like the starfarer days where ships gain exp.
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