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Author Topic: [0.9.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Lore update 1/20  (Read 212552 times)

Prolbo

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Re: [0.9.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Lore update 1/20
« Reply #570 on: January 26, 2020, 01:28:33 AM »

Sounds great, especially part about Negotations, Bribery, Threats/Demands (*Space Ranger music plays in my head*) and smaller & faster mosquito fleet wich probably would be real mosquito fleet now, not a dwarf frigates.
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Yela

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Re: [0.9.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Lore update 1/20
« Reply #571 on: January 26, 2020, 02:15:39 AM »

I keep getting crashes with variances on:

Fatal: Slot Id [WS 004] not found on hull [mule]

Whats up with that?
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.9.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Lore update 1/20
« Reply #572 on: January 26, 2020, 02:44:27 AM »

I keep getting crashes with variances on:

Fatal: Slot Id [WS 004] not found on hull [mule]

Whats up with that?
To help me troubleshoot, what version of Archean Order are you on, and what is your currently installed mods list?

*For my own knowledge on this subject* I need to fix the vanilla overrides as far as ship files are concerned to include all the expected weapon ids in vanilla variant extensions that mods might take advantage of. I override all the vanilla variants myself, so this would only include extensions of the base ship file in mod variants. So, in part this is due to the apparent placement of a "0" in each weapon slot id as far as the ship editor is concerned, and I have relied heavily upon that to place weapon, hit-box border and engine placements, etc. It's extremely useful, but this has been a side effect. In this case, I will have to cross reference each weapon id with vanilla counterparts' ids I've inadvertently deleted by replacing them with ship editor ids. This is to ensure that all apparent ids are placed for other modders' variants' to be viable without a crash. This will take a substantial amount of time. I will work towards this as fast as I can, but I am but one person after all. Just a disclaimer. I will do my best to get there- and make it as compatible as I can.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2020, 02:53:41 AM by Morrokain »
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Yela

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Re: [0.9.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Lore update 1/20
« Reply #573 on: January 27, 2020, 01:37:49 PM »

Archean Order 1.3.4e is the one I was running, but I've recently changed over to a bunch of other mods that were incompatible with yours so I'm not entirely sure what I had at the time.

I recall having these, and ensuring that there wasn't anything to do with factions or weren't directly listed under the compatible mods you have on the main page. (Excluding any that didn't make major changes to the game either by adding sounds/portrait packs etc.)

Another Portrait Pack
Combat Chatter
Console Commands
Girls Frontline Portrait Pack 1.3
LazyLib 2.4e
MagicLib 0.28
Station Construction 3.0.0
Unknown Skies 0.42
ZGrand Sector 0.3.0
ZZ Audio Plus 1.1.1
ZZ GraphicsLib 1.4.1
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.9.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Lore update 1/20
« Reply #574 on: January 27, 2020, 03:48:24 PM »

Archean Order 1.3.4e is the one I was running, but I've recently changed over to a bunch of other mods that were incompatible with yours so I'm not entirely sure what I had at the time.

I recall having these, and ensuring that there wasn't anything to do with factions or weren't directly listed under the compatible mods you have on the main page. (Excluding any that didn't make major changes to the game either by adding sounds/portrait packs etc.)

Another Portrait Pack
Combat Chatter
Console Commands
Girls Frontline Portrait Pack 1.3
LazyLib 2.4e
MagicLib 0.28
Station Construction 3.0.0
Unknown Skies 0.42
ZGrand Sector 0.3.0
ZZ Audio Plus 1.1.1
ZZ GraphicsLib 1.4.1

Thanks, I'll take a look! I forgot to mention the operating system in case it happens to be Linux, but the version and mod list lets me start troubleshooting possible causes. I'll also download and make sure the hotfixed update works on my test computer just to be extra certain it's not a download issue.

----

Lighshow compatibility:

-Will be fixed in the next update. (I also want to work out the Industries economy and add additional markets, etc. I may be able to tackle that tonight, actually.)

----
Also, potentially some big news regarding mod faction compatibility:

I may be able to accelerate this process considerably using my IDE. Assuming the game's behavior when loading mods holds to my assumptions, it will be far easier to correct than I had originally thought. Not saying it might not take some time, but it hopefully will not be the monumental effort I had originally assumed it would be- based upon early-on modding experiences and a lack of technical tool application.

We shall see. I'm hopeful though!  ;D
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Destructor

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Re: [0.9.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Lore update 1/20
« Reply #575 on: January 27, 2020, 04:10:33 PM »

Hi would you ever consider making a sub mod with the ships and guns only?
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.9.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Lore update 1/20
« Reply #576 on: January 27, 2020, 06:47:14 PM »

Hi would you ever consider making a sub mod with the ships and guns only?

It wouldn't be particularly hard to do, but it wouldn't be balanced for use with other mod factions any more that way. Other than fleet dialogue and campaign faction additions, the core mod mostly acts this way already using Nex's randomly generated start.

Are you saying you would prefer a mod without the new factions' content? (Not a bad thing if you are- just to be clear  :) )
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Destructor

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Re: [0.9.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Lore update 1/20
« Reply #577 on: January 27, 2020, 07:24:37 PM »

Hi would you ever consider making a sub mod with the ships and guns only?

It wouldn't be particularly hard to do, but it wouldn't be balanced for use with other mod factions any more that way. Other than fleet dialogue and campaign faction additions, the core mod mostly acts this way already using Nex's randomly generated start.

Are you saying you would prefer a mod without the new factions' content? (Not a bad thing if you are- just to be clear  :) )

I love the ships and guns the mod adds i run heavy modded game so its not compatible with some of the mods so would love to see a sub mod containing say the ships and guns implemented so instead of full conversion mod a soft mod thats not changing any of the core game files. :)
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.9.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Lore update 1/20
« Reply #578 on: January 27, 2020, 08:14:59 PM »

I love the ships and guns the mod adds i run heavy modded game so its not compatible with some of the mods so would love to see a sub mod containing say the ships and guns implemented so instead of full conversion mod a soft mod thats not changing any of the core game files. :)

Ah, so a rebalance of the core stats back to Vanilla standards. Not going to say never by any means, but there are some other things that will likely come first. - Such as fleshing out the fleet dialogue system as a stand-alone mod, etc etc.

I'll definitely keep this in mind, though, and thank you for the compliment!  :)

*EDIT* 

As a way of explanation of this thought process, part of the reason is that core vanilla stats are not yet finalized. They are close, but the tweaks required to make everything feel good to revert this mod back are time intensive. So, if I were to do such a thing I would want it to be under the implication that future maintenance would be minimal (so as to not overload my workload by maintaining too many projects).

Overall, this mod was intended to provide an alternative gameplay implementation more along the lines of RTS/DnD-esque style games- backed up with immersive lore content telling my own stories. I would consider vanilla, currently, to fall more under the Rogue-Like Tactical Arcade shooter with a secondary campaign layer of Mount and Blade? Idk... it's pretty hard to put Starsector in a box. That is one of the reasons it's a fantastic game, but that is the best way I can explain design vision.

So that comes first and foremost, but I am not trying to give the impression that I am discluding the general community by a stubborn unwillingness to separate out popular features, for example. I just want the features to be finished first (so I am not doing double work- even assuming replacing files in two directories is always possible- which it may not be).

TLDR: I am taking the cautious route to preserve dev time, but I'm definitely open to multiple, separate, feature mods in the future.  :)
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 11:16:44 PM by Morrokain »
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tseikk1

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Re: [0.9.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Lore update 1/20
« Reply #579 on: January 28, 2020, 02:50:45 PM »

Is there some kind of guide for this mod, as in what ships and weapons are good etc.? It looks really nice (especially the factions) but I don't really want to relearn the game, as it seems almost everything from weapon names to ship hulls is changed
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Destructor

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Re: [0.9.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Lore update 1/20
« Reply #580 on: January 28, 2020, 03:24:04 PM »

I love the ships and guns the mod adds i run heavy modded game so its not compatible with some of the mods so would love to see a sub mod containing say the ships and guns implemented so instead of full conversion mod a soft mod thats not changing any of the core game files. :)

Ah, so a rebalance of the core stats back to Vanilla standards. Not going to say never by any means, but there are some other things that will likely come first. - Such as fleshing out the fleet dialogue system as a stand-alone mod, etc etc.

I'll definitely keep this in mind, though, and thank you for the compliment!  :)

*EDIT* 

As a way of explanation of this thought process, part of the reason is that core vanilla stats are not yet finalized. They are close, but the tweaks required to make everything feel good to revert this mod back are time intensive. So, if I were to do such a thing I would want it to be under the implication that future maintenance would be minimal (so as to not overload my workload by maintaining too many projects).

Overall, this mod was intended to provide an alternative gameplay implementation more along the lines of RTS/DnD-esque style games- backed up with immersive lore content telling my own stories. I would consider vanilla, currently, to fall more under the Rogue-Like Tactical Arcade shooter with a secondary campaign layer of Mount and Blade? Idk... it's pretty hard to put Starsector in a box. That is one of the reasons it's a fantastic game, but that is the best way I can explain design vision.

So that comes first and foremost, but I am not trying to give the impression that I am discluding the general community by a stubborn unwillingness to separate out popular features, for example. I just want the features to be finished first (so I am not doing double work- even assuming replacing files in two directories is always possible- which it may not be).

TLDR: I am taking the cautious route to preserve dev time, but I'm definitely open to multiple, separate, feature mods in the future.  :)

Yea better be cautious then hasty but yea you doing a great job i just love extra pew pew in my game  ;D ;D
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.9.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Lore update 1/20
« Reply #581 on: January 28, 2020, 03:36:30 PM »

Is there some kind of guide for this mod, as in what ships and weapons are good etc.? It looks really nice (especially the factions) but I don't really want to relearn the game, as it seems almost everything from weapon names to ship hulls is changed

There is the Tactics Manual, yes, but it is ~2 years old and so a little dated since there have been a lot of improvements since then. I've been meaning to tidy that up but it is admittedly a tedious job.

These old posts may also help a bit as far as some player experiences and a description of the general combat tactics' design:

Spoiler

*snip*

1.  Archean flux war:

a.  a heavy missile loadout and a bit of excess flux budget worked great for general pirates swarms or working the edge of a mid-game sized battle line hunting and killing smaller ships.  However this ship setup does poorly when stuck into the middle of a battle line (the above Revenant cruiser) and having to "hold"...way too long delays between salvos.  Now moderating to solid beam with solid missile salvo...AND a fair amount of overhead to deal with the hard flux coming in from...let's see:   a billion fighters, missiles, debris, beams, lasers, and kitchen sinks. 

So back to the simulator...and:  Gauss cannon, artillery blasters, max flux capacity/distributors, and some burst pd means I can duel an Onslaught (slowly).  Sure great for duelist config...will have to see how it does in the "Archean mid-game threat environment"

b.  It was horrifying when I booted up the simulator against a Paragon and the thing blasted me from outside visual range.  And then proceeded to hound me off the field like a Man Mountain the Sumo wrestler.  However since I have just joined the Archean Order, I shall pay back these Tri-Tachyon Paragon on the field of battle...eventually.

Yea, missile boats and other long-range support designs are horrifically effective in their role, but can't handle a melee. Paragon doesn't really count, given the whole, normal design is really more an assault with several TACHYON LANCES. The Support paragon is, while not horrible, is absolutely a support ship which without guards cannot handle much on it's own.

I generally think of it in rough D&D-ish RPG terms. With Support as Wizard, Assault as Warrior, and Strike as Assassin, with some overlap and a few other traits.

Support vessels, naturally. Long range, and hence ability to pick and chose targets and push them over the edge. Missiles or long range support weapons. But in melee combat, the shield's upkeep makes it lose half it's damage output, and it loses the other half from the tradeoff that long range support weapons make, of flux cost and lower damage for range.

Assault Vessel. Fast, tough, and they get in your face and prevent you from doing anything clever. The Low-Flux speed boost makes them great at interceptions. Assault weapons have the best DPS, and use no flux, so while they get barely any alpha potential, they DO have the ability to just make a target's shields remain under strain, and keep them slow. The lack of flux cost means stronger shields, and higher speed, but the lack of alpha potential means no real finishing power unless you have several teaming up, or, more likely, from support vessles or having assasin traits.

Strike Vessel. Has a powerful alpha strike, but needs opportunities to take advantage of. They are fast and great at obliterating targets in the opening volly, but they have no staying power to speak of. Zero-flux helps them get into position, but since they tend to spend easily half or more of their flux in their strike, they obviously won't maintain it afterwards. Best used as hiding behind Assaults, until the target's shields are weakened enough for you to tear through them. And then backoff, vent, and wait for ammunition to reload.

Carriers are weird, and are more an afterthought, even in this mod. Mostly it just makes them worse quality, while supporting fighters, so they are more strategic target. I really have no idea how to think about them, aside from them being really important and high priority targets.

Hybrids exist, but it has serious costs. Adding a few strikes to the assault helps it break stalemates on it's own, but the loss of DPS and survivability hurts. Adding support helps it intercept or maintain contact, but again, costs DPS and survivability.

Point defense is pretty universal. That said, dedicated PD vessels can work, although I have no idea if the AI really handles the correctly.
-----

Been using an Archean Order Frigate as my flagship. After my entire starting force kinda died horribly though the incompetent commander.
Not sure what it was called, but it has 6 small missile slots, 2 charges of missile forge, and 2 small energy slots.

I think I have 6 trebuchet missile launchers, extended racks, unstable injector, and safety overrides (Plus hardened subsystems). And two sorta-pd/assault guns.

It is horrifyingly effective as a support vessel. I can unload 3 vollies of 18 missiles from the start, although the second reforge has a longer cooldown. I can generally obliterate 2 frigates in an opening volly, from way, way out of range. That said, between the long restocking time and the saftey overrides, I can generally manage around 3 more full vollies, barely, before CR decay sets up.

But, the shield is tough, its fast enough to sorta evade fighters (at least get to support before the shield collapses) and is a horrifically effective support/assassin hybrid.

I tried using short range missiles, like Swarmer, or torpedoes, or rocketpods, or w.e., but nothing can match the sheer potential I got from 18 longrange missiles. I can't even really get a good shield breaker missile to work. Its just that there aren't any similarly FAST missiles. I don't have to get close either.

That said, its not OP enough. It takes a lot to even pound down a frigate's shield, and even two vollies doesn't do much to a destroyer. Hence I have to wait for vulnerable targets.
Point defense on frigates generally isn't enough to save them, but it certainly makes me spend more ammunition. Larger ships can pretty much ignore the huge waves though.

Past that, when ammunition is depleted I have a 10 second delay before I get 6 missiles back, and I can only kinda kill fighters, and mildly poke frigates with the secondary guns.

Overall, highly effective, but not even close to being able to, say, solo an enemy fleet.


DnD-esque is exactly the kind of battle dynamic I was going for, yeah. I play a lot of RPG's as well as RTS, and that has definitely been an influence for this entire mod. :)

AI assault/support pairs or task force groups - You can do this pretty reliably *snip*:

Step 1: Select your assault group and tell it to escort a support ship. The recommendation for this is that the assault escorts are either a class smaller or at least fairly faster than the support ship. 0-flux boosting helps this a lot with assault and strike ships though, so you will be surprised what you can get away with there. Do this for each support ship in your fleet.

Step 2: Select the support/strike ships (Only the support/strike ships, mind you) you want to have target a priority enemy ship and right click that enemy vessel. The support ships will focus either their missiles or fighter waves on that ship, and strike vessels will close for a salvo.

Why this works well:
- The key here is that the AI is very aware of when it is "flankable" and will behave much more cautiously when it has that liability unless an eliminate command is explicitly given. That's why numbers are so important because the larger group has the flank advantage and can sometimes outright intimidate the other side into being overly defensive and not using their strike weapons until its too late. Escorts, however, provide flank defense the AI is aware of, and even the minor distraction of having to briefly engage an escorting frigate can buy enough time to make the AI confident enough to fully engage their weapons. This can often mean the difference between an attack killing a target (optimal outcome) or merely overloading it and hoping the long range missiles can get through the enemy fighter screen and finish it as it limps off. The escorts for your long range support ships are to ensure that they don't get similarly surrounded and sniped while your "away" at the enemy battle line.

4) Carrier weakness/uniqueness from the large fighter nerf that's coming will be addressed because they will all have built-in hullmods reducing fighter replacement time substantially- both to give them the actual sense of being a carrier and slightly weaken the fighter strength of standard assault vessels so comparison between the two classes can be more easily drawn. It isn't as noticeable for frigates or destroyers since the majority of them can't field fighters if they aren't carriers, but the lines get really blurred above that. Cruisers meant to be hybrids (like the midline Eagle or Megalith, for instance) will still feel that way because of their ship systems. For many carriers, limited ammo being a factor will also greatly increase the strength of the majority of carrier-based ship systems in comparison to the current release, so that will also make them stand out more.

[close]

Yea better be cautious then hasty but yea you doing a great job i just love extra pew pew in my game  ;D ;D

Thank you :)
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dimzki

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Re: [0.9.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Lore update 1/20
« Reply #582 on: January 28, 2020, 08:39:25 PM »

Also, potentially some big news regarding mod faction compatibility:

I may be able to accelerate this process considerably using my IDE. Assuming the game's behavior when loading mods holds to my assumptions, it will be far easier to correct than I had originally thought. Not saying it might not take some time, but it hopefully will not be the monumental effort I had originally assumed it would be- based upon early-on modding experiences and a lack of technical tool application.

We shall see. I'm hopeful though!  ;D

does this apply to the ship stats of other mods?
 ;D
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.9.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Lore update 1/20
« Reply #583 on: January 28, 2020, 11:59:14 PM »

Also, potentially some big news regarding mod faction compatibility:

I may be able to accelerate this process considerably using my IDE. Assuming the game's behavior when loading mods holds to my assumptions, it will be far easier to correct than I had originally thought. Not saying it might not take some time, but it hopefully will not be the monumental effort I had originally assumed it would be- based upon early-on modding experiences and a lack of technical tool application.

We shall see. I'm hopeful though!  ;D

does this apply to the ship stats of other mods?
 ;D

No, sorry, not that compatible in terms of editing other mods or anything. It will hopefully make all faction mods compatible in use with Archean Order and Nex without Archean Order overriding most of the core vanilla files. This should open up more mods that edit vanilla files to being compatible. Stat imbalances will remain. I may handle that in the future but that would probably be further down the road when core stats are more finalized and therefore more easily balanced around.

I'll give more precise details when I have them. I'm working from the projectile files on up to see how much I can get away with as far as campaign balance is possible concerning the base mod. I want to preserve that balance as well.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 12:02:32 AM by Morrokain »
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tseikk1

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Re: [0.9.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Lore update 1/20
« Reply #584 on: January 29, 2020, 07:52:22 AM »

I can't seem to grasp this mod. Why is everything so fast, why does every second ship have entropy amplifier as its ship system, why is there a ship with 4000+ armor(LC legion)? Every weapon type (missile/energy/ballistic) has good(ish?) weapons for every type of damage making them feel homogenous. Everything has charges. Carriers seem even more overpowered than in vanilla. PD guns use no flux...

It might be that I'm just a bad player, actually that is very likely since I haven't learned much about this mod, but IMO some of the balance/design decisions seem quite questionable.
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