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Author Topic: Nav Buoys and Sensor Jammers should be more worthwhile  (Read 13650 times)

Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Nav Buoys and Sensor Jammers should be more worthwhile
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2018, 12:44:24 PM »

Ah, point - I'd forgotten that that was also before the Hyperion had its teleporter.  So, yeah, that would have to change too if we wanted to go back to that mechanic (which we still probably don't.)
Phase ships would most likely work just as good and I agree with Megas: It was too exploitable to use
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Embolism

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Re: Nav Buoys and Sensor Jammers should be more worthwhile
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2018, 09:41:53 AM »

Regardless of the actual bonus, Hyperion and Phase Ships will always have an advantage in taking points.

All the more reason to have bonuses increase over time. That way you can make the (eventual) bonus meaningful without giving the first comer a huge advantage.
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Megas

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Re: Nav Buoys and Sensor Jammers should be more worthwhile
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2018, 10:54:32 AM »

Regardless of the actual bonus, Hyperion and Phase Ships will always have an advantage in taking points.
True, but during 0.5.x, you could not deploy as much as you can now.  Back then, capturing points increased the DP you have to deploy ships.  Thus, if you want to overwhelm the enemy, you capture points immediately long before the enemy can.  With two Hyperion, you can send an AI Hyperion to cap the points on your side while the Hyperion you pilot tries to cap a point on the enemy side.  If you succeed, you get lots of DP to deploy much of your fleet, before the enemy can do much of anything.  With an overwhelming DP advantage, you outnumber and outgun the enemy before they get a chance to fight back.  Eventually, you dominate so much you converge your fleet where they burn in and pick off their trickle of ships one at a time.

New style phase cloak or other time shifting shenanigans would probably work well, perhaps too well, with 0.5.x era combat.  Capturing points immediately was so critical for fleet dominance.  It did not matter much if you could not hold the points, just capture it long enough to deploy as many ships as possible while denying the points from the enemy so they cannot deploy more.  The goal is to reduce the enemy to a trickle of ships that you can focus-fire at while they helplessly burn into the arena.

The problem would be Hyperion and other select ships dominating opening part of the battle too much due to exploiting game rules.  Capturing very early was game-breakingly powerful.

Since 0.6, capturing points is not so critical.  They do not affect how much either side can deploy.  Battles can all be Endor right from the start.
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AxleMC131

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Re: Nav Buoys and Sensor Jammers should be more worthwhile
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2018, 02:36:01 PM »

Hyperion and Phase Ships might have an advantage in capturing points thanks to their massive mobility, sure.

But they're also the ones that are going to start running out of Combat Readiness first in a fleet fight. So if you're capturing those points to give a net long-term benefit for the rest of your fleet - and you're willing to support the deployment cost (and logistical profile) of a light cruiser in order to field a Hyperion - then it's pretty damn balanced in my eyes.
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Megas

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Re: Nav Buoys and Sensor Jammers should be more worthwhile
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2018, 03:19:52 PM »

Hyperion and Phase Ships might have an advantage in capturing points thanks to their massive mobility, sure.

But they're also the ones that are going to start running out of Combat Readiness first in a fleet fight. So if you're capturing those points to give a net long-term benefit for the rest of your fleet - and you're willing to support the deployment cost (and logistical profile) of a light cruiser in order to field a Hyperion - then it's pretty damn balanced in my eyes.
That did not matter in 0.5.x.  Once Hyperions capture those points and repel enemy ships, their work is done.  Their main purpose would be to capture points to give DP and prevent the enemy from taking them until your reinforcements dominate the field, which did not take very long.  There was no long-term benefit.  Just capture points immediately, then watch your fleet move up the field and pick off ships along the way, then converge at enemy spawn point and pick off the trickle of ships coming in.  It is silly when several of my ships try to go off the map trying to attack enemy ships that have not fully appeared on the screen.

Back before 0.6, there was no CR.  Then again, before 0.6, the player could auto-resolve every fight, and it was possible to auto-resolve everything successfully.  That was the most powerful build due to resolving fights in seconds, and allowed a player to extend the soft cap by about ten more levels (in the versions that had skills).
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Embolism

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Re: Nav Buoys and Sensor Jammers should be more worthwhile
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2018, 06:01:54 PM »

What I was trying to get at is, if the argument against making points too useful is that fleets with fast ships would have too much of an advantage, then making bonuses build over time (i.e. start weak, grow strong) would counteract that.

I think points need to be powerful. As they are they don't have a lot of reason to exist.

Previously it's been suggested that ships with Nav Buoy/ECM modules could build their sensor/jamming bonus while they're sitting on points. I think that's a good start...
« Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 06:03:43 PM by Embolism »
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FooF

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Re: Nav Buoys and Sensor Jammers should be more worthwhile
« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2018, 08:44:29 AM »

Late to the party but I'm going back to the original premise of "what gives the player impetus to split his/her fleet?" Nav Points, as is, provide combat incentives but that's only one path in creating meaningful choice as it pertains to tactical positioning.

Combat bonuses are one category and we've been discussing them at length. The balancing act, as mentioned, is not making them so good that the force that controls them has a unmitigated advantage but not so weak than that you can avoid them altogether with little loss. Direct combat bonuses such as speed or weapon range (current) are some of the god-stats but so would something like "+10% damage" or "+15% Damage to Shields." These are strictly binary positions though and it would be nice to see something a little more graduated.

I liked the idea of "capture and hold" where the initial bonus is small but grows over time, it doesn't give either side much of a change in position until the battle becomes more mature and as the bonus grows, so does the incentive to hold the point or capture it. If, for example, there was a Nav Buoy that was initially +5% Damage but grew to become +35% Damage over the course of 3 minutes (and this was displayed to the player as a bonus or as counter-intelligence re: the enemy), the bonus and the area of space around the Buoy become gradually more valuable. If the AI was taught that "above 15% of X Bonus, prioritize this point" and made a bee-line for your captured point or drew back to defend their own mature point, there would be more dynamic battlefields. Of course, it would be possible to abuse the AI behavior but if there were multiple points and all were semi-equally valuable, it would be more difficult to do so. I could see Skills promoting this kind of behavior, as well, such as accelerated maturing of points or faster capturing.

In a completely different vein, splitting up fleets could be done via non-combat incentives. Fighting over derelicts, civilian ships, cargo pods, etc. would have more campaign-oriented outcomes worth splitting your fleet over. Imagine three abandoned Phaeton fuel tankers spread out over the map and if you can take and hold that area of space for a set amount of time (or while also defeating the enemy), you get to keep their cargo or even the ship itself (without D mods!). The caveat is that purely defeating the enemy doesn't net you all three: you have to constantly hold the point with a ship. Or something like that.

Or, in yet another avenue, create more battlefield terrain. Nebula are a start but they don't offer a significant advantage or disadvantage for full fleet actions. If you're fighting in Asteroid belt, maybe there are multiple large/stationary asteroids that can't otherwise be broken up, thus it shrinks the battlefield and forces the player and the AI to adjust tactics. Or, as previously mentioned, have a station in the middle that is "impassable terrain" that can also be captured to provide, say, anti-Fighter PD. The issue with terrain is that much of space is well, empty space, and arbitrarily adding terrain feels a bit disingenuous. I guess the way around this is to provide "points of interest" that the player and enemy fleets will converge on so that fights are in areas of space with debris, asteroids, coronas, etc. If nothing else, it will make some fights near planets and stations a bit more varied.

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Linnis

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Re: Nav Buoys and Sensor Jammers should be more worthwhile
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2018, 02:08:37 AM »

Does anyone else play with small battles only? Just enjoy fleets clashing into each other like in the movies? Capturing objectives seem so silly for me.

FooF said splitting up fleet should be for other reasons, not just capture the point goofieness is the way to go.
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TaLaR

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Re: Nav Buoys and Sensor Jammers should be more worthwhile
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2018, 02:17:37 AM »

Does anyone else play with small battles only? Just enjoy fleets clashing into each other like in the movies? Capturing objectives seem so silly for me.
Not only, but small battles without objectives definitely have their own charm.

Overall, idea of points becoming more valuable over time is interesting. It avoids both pitfalls of "whoever gets them first, stomps the other" and being small enough to be ignored.

As for in-combat resources like derelicts, that's quite immersion breaking for me - why do I have collect them right now, when I could safely do it after combat instead? If it has been floating in space for ages, it could wait for me a few more hours. Also, why do they magically appear during combat, but not otherwise?
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Megas

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Re: Nav Buoys and Sensor Jammers should be more worthwhile
« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2018, 06:45:09 AM »

Does anyone else play with small battles only? Just enjoy fleets clashing into each other like in the movies? Capturing objectives seem so silly for me.
Between 0.6 and 0.6.2, I did.  In fact, between 0.5.4 and 0.7, your maximum fleet size was determined by Leadership and Fleet Logistics.  Without skills in them, you only had 20 Logistics, not enough to use any battleship, (or 25 FP in 0.5.4, enough for a single Paragon) and your only way to win was to solo fights with as few ships as possible.  Combat needed to be gloriously overpowered if you did not take the Leadership route.  Eventually, during early 0.6.x, you needed some Leadership to support multiple Atlases that could pick up loot from one endgame fight.  Supply consumption was excessive, and loot was equally excessive.  CR was introduced, but only frigates (and Buffalo II) had limited peak performance.  Medusa with Combat 10 could solo everything.

For other versions...
In 0.5.4, I built auto-resolve character with multiple capitals.  Very boring, but very optimal for powerleveling (due to finishing fights in seconds instead of minutes).  It was the only way to get a 10-10-10 character short of cheating.  That said, CR was not in the game yet, and a sufficiently skilled high-tech could solo everything in time.

In 0.6.5, food runs became the way to powerlevel, and player wanted a fleet of 16+ Atlases led by a Hyperion or two.  Player that wanted to defend his big fleet of Atlases needed to solo fights with a Hyperion... in a big map with points.  For bounty hunting, which could be done on the side between food runs, anything you wanted worked, although frigate swarms were ideal for burn speed much faster than everything else (with Navigation 10).

In 0.7.x, when the 25 ship hard cap was introduced, I had a fleet of 11 warships, plus few other support ships (like Atlas or tugs), but it was a toolbox of ships.  I picked one ship that was appropriate for the job, and solo'ed everything.  The rest of my fleet were CR benchwarmers.

Today, skills (and Unstable Injector) are much weaker than before, and hull regeneration is gone.  Most of my ships are clunkers and I deploy nearly all to overwhelm the AI before it chickens out and stalls until everyone is out of peak performance and CR.  Solo ships aside from carriers do not do well today, thanks to cowardly AI.  Also, it helps to have a big enough fleet for assaulting battlestations.

And, yes, capturing objectives is silly.  I would be happy if they were removed from the game, although Coordinated Maneuvers 1 and Electronic Warfare 1 making them irrelevant is almost as good.  Almost because AI still think they are important and can be cheesed.
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Wyvern

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Re: Nav Buoys and Sensor Jammers should be more worthwhile
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2018, 06:31:03 PM »

Okay, here's an idea (building off some ideas of others):

Have a specific support ship (or hull mod - not available for frigates) whose purpose is to sit on a node and make that node -awesome-.  You'd need some extra UI so the player would actually know when one of these ships had arrived at a node, but it'd work as a delay on node abilities ramping up.

Similarly, a support ship that can deploy a minefield around a node, or an automated mini-station with LRMs or something, would pair up nicely for this.
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Kirschbra

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Re: Nav Buoys and Sensor Jammers should be more worthwhile
« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2018, 05:23:44 PM »

Ohh I like the idea of mine ships, that would be pretty cool, though I'd say the mines would need to hurt friendlies as well.  And that could be something cool in any battle, mine ships that just have a couple pd mounts

The build up over time idea is great, as of now, I always just ignore the capture points, unless fog of war has some hidden enemies left after I big battle, I just assume they are near them.

I like the idea of slight capture-able points that have like a long range turret or a small pilum salvo from off map, but what ever it is, it needs to make sense... if I'm in deep hyper space way out of core world space, there shouldn't be certain things like that, but a battle in system space near a station, makes perfect sense... to a degree.  From what I've noticed of Alex, he typically wont force something to fit, if it just doesn't make sense.
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Sooner535

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Re: Nav Buoys and Sensor Jammers should be more worthwhile
« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2018, 08:16:08 AM »

If we are talking specifically spreading fleets out being the goal then I think there are a couple options that could help:

1. Do the over time objective thing (I personally dislike objectives in the maps, I think they are immersion breaking and don’t understand any lore reasoning behind them, they just appear in battle and then disappear. However if people like them I can get over it lol).

2. A cool idea that could help some battles I’d have battles take in the terrain around them before I fight. EG: so if I fight in a asteroid field with asteroids the size of cap ships they should float into and out of the battle map, I would need to avoid these or get my ships blown up, they become giant things that split up you’re fleets. Also in nebulae it can have storms that hurt you’re ship/ some effects have degrade armor/lower engines/make shields unusable/etc. that you should probably avoid in battle. Etc. I think this would make some or most battles dynamic and give reasons to move ships around.

3. Have the civilian ships and undeployed ships show up in sort of power down mode on you’re side of the field and same as the enemy, you can retreat them but it’ll cost CR and supplies, however if you leave them in power off mode and just protect them they are fine, this could allow AI and players the ability to kill squishy freighters that should IMHO be close enough to fight still and so need to be protected (what do you do with those ships anyways? Their close enough to help fight as soon as you ask but far enough to never get attacked?).

4. Make the battle map bigger (think this makes 2 and 3 better, gives you more space to maneuver).

5. Have the AI simply coded to spread out more, though I think this’ll just get them killed more lol

That’s about all I got, I think combined that each point would make battles more spread out affairs and
Less deathballey, anyways there’s my hat thrown into the ring on the matter lol
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Megas

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Re: Nav Buoys and Sensor Jammers should be more worthwhile
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2018, 09:13:47 AM »

1. Do the over time objective thing (I personally dislike objectives in the maps, I think they are immersion breaking and don’t understand any lore reasoning behind them, they just appear in battle and then disappear. However if people like them I can get over it lol).
I dislike them too, mostly for being huge CP sinks (until Coordinate Maneuvers 1 and Electronic Warfare 1 makes them moot) and distracting the AI enough to be a vulnerability to be exploited at times.  Death to objectives!

3. Have the civilian ships and undeployed ships show up in sort of power down mode on you’re side of the field and same as the enemy, you can retreat them but it’ll cost CR and supplies, however if you leave them in power off mode and just protect them they are fine, this could allow AI and players the ability to kill squishy freighters that should IMHO be close enough to fight still and so need to be protected (what do you do with those ships anyways? Their close enough to help fight as soon as you ask but far enough to never get attacked?).
This will not happen as long as we have battle map size limits.  Even at the greatest map size, endgame fleets on both sides may be too big for all ships to deploy at once.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 09:17:25 AM by Megas »
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Kirschbra

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Re: Nav Buoys and Sensor Jammers should be more worthwhile
« Reply #44 on: February 12, 2018, 10:34:43 AM »


2. A cool idea that could help some battles I’d have battles take in the terrain around them before I fight. EG: so if I fight in a asteroid field with asteroids the size of cap ships they should float into and out of the battle map, I would need to avoid these or get my ships blown up, they become giant things that split up you’re fleets. Also in nebulae it can have storms that hurt you’re ship/ some effects have degrade armor/lower engines/make shields unusable/etc. that you should probably avoid in battle. Etc. I think this would make some or most battles dynamic and give reasons to move ships around.
Quote
4. Make the battle map bigger (think this makes 2 and 3 better, gives you more space to maneuver).

This guy has some good ideas
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 10:37:01 AM by Kirschbra »
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