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Author Topic: Nav Buoys and Sensor Jammers should be more worthwhile  (Read 13589 times)

Sy

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Re: Nav Buoys and Sensor Jammers should be more worthwhile
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2017, 04:40:43 PM »

I don't think the mechanics for objectives need to be any more complex to make them "more worthwhile" in most cases.
that's my feeling as well. i actually quite like capture points and the overall mechanics behind them, i just don't like how said mechanics currently often devalue them. and i think that could be changed for the most part by pushing some numbers around, rather than redesigning said underlying mechanics.

many of these other ideas of what to do with capture points or what to replace them with also sound cool, but i think these would all introduce at least as many issues as they would solve, not the least of which would be adding yet another layer of complexity onto the combat that is already difficult to learn for many new players. using capture points of course also has to be learned in some way, but most players will already have seen the basic idea of "if you are in the area and the enemy isn't, you 'flag' the point and get a bonus of some kind" done in other games before, so it should be quite intuitive (even if the precise bonuses or their relative value to other tactical considerations are not immediately obvious).
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SafariJohn

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Re: Nav Buoys and Sensor Jammers should be more worthwhile
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2017, 08:15:24 PM »

I just realized I've been misreading Alex's "split up" statement as "spread out". :-[ Distinct meanings there...

In that light I may as well plug a suggestion I made several months ago: Raiding: Simple, yet Complicated That is a really terrible title heheh


Recalling my own experiences, I would argue objectives don't encourage fleets to split up. Most of the time one or both fleets send the bulk of their ships to one objective and a few frigates to the others. The rest of the time they just plow straight across the center of the map. In either case, the end result is two deathballs colliding. If they split up after that, it's usually due to the flow of battle rather than objectives.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Nav Buoys and Sensor Jammers should be more worthwhile
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2017, 08:50:24 PM »

Recalling my own experiences, I would argue objectives don't encourage fleets to split up. Most of the time one or both fleets send the bulk of their ships to one objective and a few frigates to the others. The rest of the time they just plow straight across the center of the map. In either case, the end result is two deathballs colliding. If they split up after that, it's usually due to the flow of battle rather than objectives.

I very intentionally use assault/defend orders to ensure that my fleet doesn't split up. Splitting up is a bad tactical decision that results in ships being isolated and destroyed. Ships sometimes naturally spread out anyway because slow ships often chase fast ships far away from the main battle (I love it when my capital ship chases a single flanking frigate far away while the enemy capital slaughters the rest of my fleet). I end up using objectives to keep my fleet together which is a bit ironic. A death ball is safe because it ensures that I can protect my fleet with my flagship and intervene when ships are under pressure. That's the same reason I often choose to pilot a more mobile ship rather than my capital ships, so that I can quickly reinforce all over the battlefield. Paragon can achieve the same effect to some extent with range. Point being: I don't think spreading out is necessarily good, at least for the player. It reduces the players ability to impact the battle and often results in losing ships.
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AxleMC131

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Re: Nav Buoys and Sensor Jammers should be more worthwhile
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2017, 09:25:46 PM »

To be fair, that does assume that the enemy is also not spreading out, or is grossly outnumbered/outgunned by you.

In a normal situation, if you have two equal fleets, one creates a "deathball" and one forms a flanking battleline, the flanking one is going to have the advantage.

But to each their own I suppose. And that "normal situation" rarely happens.
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HELMUT

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Re: Nav Buoys and Sensor Jammers should be more worthwhile
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2017, 07:13:56 AM »

To me, anything that encourages the player to check the map more often doesn't align with the other stuff in combat.

Eh, i'd say that it depends on the player's play style. It's not ideal for a flagship centric build, a leadership build on the other hand...

As for the goal of splitting fleets on the battlefield. Currently, the player (usually) wants two things for his fleet. First : to keep his ships alive. Second : to at least keep the enemy busy. Hence the battle line formation, or deathball when outnumbered. That way, the flagship can flank the enemy and take down one by one the opponent's ships.

The current objectives points doesn't change the thematic a lot. Do i want to send some of my ships to capture and hold that objective? The bonus is going to be pretty small, and that squad, as well as the smaller bulk of the fleet, will be more vulnerable to an attack. Is it really worth the risk? Not really. With bigger bonus however? Mmmmaybe? A sudden buff could offset splitting the fleet in two, weaker groups. Hence Gothars's suggestion, mine about global abilities, or even Xeno's capturable defence platforms.

It's a risk vs reward situation. Do i want to split the fleet to get +5% mobility? Not really. Change that bonus to a 20 seconds +30% damage, a Pilum swarm spawned from the edge of the map, or capturing a long range space turret? That might be an interesting choice.

Also, to answer Axle's valid concern about capturing activated defence platforms, perhaps something like this?

Spoiler
[close]

Maybe one or two points to capture a defence system depending on its size, and obviously the points won't be near the actual station, hence the need to spread the fleet. The defence platforms don't have to be stationary either, could be a bunch of inactive derelicts that will roam the battlefield once activated. Also, probably best to keep the platforms relatively small for balance purpose.

The biggest issue with all of those : it's a non negligible amount of work for something that works well enough already. Tweaking a few numbers is one thing, adding some new mechanics and thoroughly testing them is another.
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Megas

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Re: Nav Buoys and Sensor Jammers should be more worthwhile
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2017, 07:31:36 AM »

- In contrast, non-combat rewards (bonus XP, bonus salvage, etc) sound much more interesting, but those would be player-only rewards. If the AI ends the fight with such a point captured, what bonus do they get? It's a nice concept, but at present a highly assymetrical one. Yes I know a lot of the player-versus-AI gameplay is assymetrical anyway, but it feels like a missed opportunity in this case.
At least it gives the illusion of AI caring about resources, even if they know and could act as if they have unlimited resources.  It would give the player a reason to hold objectives, while the AI plays along.

Recalling my own experiences, I would argue objectives don't encourage fleets to split up. Most of the time one or both fleets send the bulk of their ships to one objective and a few frigates to the others. The rest of the time they just plow straight across the center of the map. In either case, the end result is two deathballs colliding. If they split up after that, it's usually due to the flow of battle rather than objectives.
This is true.
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Inventor Raccoon

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Re: Nav Buoys and Sensor Jammers should be more worthwhile
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2017, 11:47:10 AM »

It's a tad off-topic but I do like the idea of capture points that activate defensive systems. I think you'd really just need to build systems to 1. allow a ship to change between "friendly", "hostile" and "inactive" during combat without wigging out 2. have capture points that change the allegiance of any linked ships based on whoever controls it 3. spawn those ships far away from the point itself so it can be captured without interference from the defenses

Maybe then add a .csv file where all possible defense systems are defined. From there you really just need to make a few extra ships to take advantage of it (defense turrets, deactivated hangars, missile platforms etc).

Could even have some more context related things, e.g if there are probes in the system you could have a point linked to a couple of Derelicts, or if there's a warning beacon there'd be AI ships that spring to life and fight for the point holder.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2017, 11:49:28 AM by Inventor Raccoon »
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mehgamer

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Re: Nav Buoys and Sensor Jammers should be more worthwhile
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2017, 11:47:51 AM »

To be completely honest, I use capture points as a way to encourage my fleet to form battle lines more than anything else.  90% of the time the actual buff of a given capture point doesn't even come into the decision to order my fleet to hold it, I just tell the fleet to capture all the objectives on the left side or the right side or some other pattern so as to put the AI in tighter, more controlled clusters.

I seem to get the impression that Alex doesn't want us focusing all our effort on these things anyway, so these suggestions would probably be better implemented as an API hook that allows modders to do their own thing - if they so choose.  Power to the people while preserving the original vision, and all that!  :)
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AxleMC131

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Re: Nav Buoys and Sensor Jammers should be more worthwhile
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2017, 03:47:49 PM »

... The defence platforms don't have to be stationary either, could be a bunch of inactive derelicts that will roam the battlefield once activated. Also, probably best to keep the platforms relatively small for balance purpose...

... Could even have some more context related things, e.g if there are probes in the system you could have a point linked to a couple of Derelicts, or if there's a warning beacon there'd be AI ships that spring to life and fight for the point holder.

Okay, I love this concept.  ;D



I seem to get the impression that Alex doesn't want us focusing all our effort on these things anyway, so these suggestions would probably be better implemented as an API hook that allows modders to do their own thing - if they so choose.  Power to the people while preserving the original vision, and all that!  :)

Hear hear! Also a solid point.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Nav Buoys and Sensor Jammers should be more worthwhile
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2017, 04:55:25 PM »

Something that might encourage more fleet spread is if whatever benefit the points provide ramps up over time. If holding a point for a while is significantly more impactful than just flipping it back and forth, you might see people actually sending a decent force to hold the point instead of a single frigate to capture it.

Platforms powering up more and more weaponry, the current E-War satellites ramping up to greater and greater power, off-map LRM support or fighter support being called in, escalating increase in deployment points - something that is a serious threat if it gets held but isn't instantly fight-losing if it gets controlled for a few seconds. Hell something that slowly forces undeployed civilians into the map over time would even work - you'd want to stop that from happening, and might actually care about holding that point yourself to get at the juicy backlines.
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AxleMC131

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Re: Nav Buoys and Sensor Jammers should be more worthwhile
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2017, 06:21:18 PM »

Something that might encourage more fleet spread is if whatever benefit the points provide ramps up over time. If holding a point for a while is significantly more impactful than just flipping it back and forth, you might see people actually sending a decent force to hold the point instead of a single frigate to capture it.

Wow, okay that's actually a really neat and probably simple way to do it. Can't believe I hadn't thought of that myself...  ;) At least for basic numbers increasing over time, this gets a vote from me.

(Other concepts you've suggested to follow are neat, but a little complex for my taste. :P )
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Nav Buoys and Sensor Jammers should be more worthwhile
« Reply #26 on: January 01, 2018, 01:10:45 PM »

(Other concepts you've suggested to follow are neat, but a little complex for my taste. :P )

I know I just kinda dislike the range and speed modifiers because those two stats are what define ships and weapons - and when they're variable those quick judgement that (in my opinion) you're supposed to be able to make get less clear.

It's not a game breaker or anything, and the concept of the e-war aspect is fun but in a perfect world I think there'd be something else in it's place that doesn't mess with range and speed.
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Wyvern

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Re: Nav Buoys and Sensor Jammers should be more worthwhile
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2018, 03:52:53 PM »

I've been thinking about this question, and I keep thinking back to the original implementation of nav nodes; back before CR, these nodes determined how much of your fleet you could field, and (unlike current nodes) -that- was a strong and compelling reason to fight over every one of them you could get a hold of (and go out of your way to keep the ones you had - a source of much frustration for me at the time given fleet AI / command limitations that have since been addressed); especially the 30-deployment-point comm nodes.

...Unfortunately, I haven't come up with a good way to retrofit that into current mechanics.  We probably don't want to roll back to the original low battle size with nodes allowing more deployments; we've got CR to cover the 'make the player not throw all their ships into every fight' goal.*

But it -does- give a measure of what power level a nav node needs to be at to be a compelling goal to defend: when capturing a node lets you throw another cruiser into the fight, that matters in ways the current bonuses often don't.

_____
* Or do we?  It did give battles a nice feel of happening in stages - deploy fast ships, do some initial node captures, then bring out the heavier vessels...
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Megas

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Re: Nav Buoys and Sensor Jammers should be more worthwhile
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2018, 08:13:39 AM »

I do not want to go back to pre-0.6 style comm points.  That is easy to break.  Grab two Hyperion (30 DP out of 40 max), capture points long before anyone else can, deploy as much as possible, outgun enemy, then converge where the enemy burns in, and kill them before they appear on the screen.  Fights are too artificial and easy that way.  Capturing points immediately with teleporters, followed by overwhelming firepower, is the way to win.

Plus, that inhibits big deploy all fights.  Cannot have battle of Endor if both sides can only deploy a tickle of ships instead of everything.
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Wyvern

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Re: Nav Buoys and Sensor Jammers should be more worthwhile
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2018, 08:40:48 AM »

Ah, point - I'd forgotten that that was also before the Hyperion had its teleporter.  So, yeah, that would have to change too if we wanted to go back to that mechanic (which we still probably don't.)
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.
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