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Author Topic: Colony Management  (Read 68218 times)

Techhead

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #45 on: December 23, 2017, 06:08:55 AM »

Hmm - I have to be honest, I don't really get the "no-one else has to pay it" sentiment - they're just different mechanics. Maybe the reason for a level cap of 20 is to represent that they do have to invest in aptitudes etc behind the scenes, but it's not something the player needs to be bothered with. But even that I think isn't a great way to look at it because, again, just entirely different mechanics. Apples and oranges, you know?

That's the issue though: Officers are basically slightly weaker PCs that get to pick the fun skills. Their effective level is 30 (because no aptitudes and the bonus starting skill) and are able to get 7 of the 15 possible skills, spread out across 3 trees of skills. Meanwhile the player's effective skill level is anywhere between 36 (min. 2 aptitudes minus the two bonus points) to 30! which is EQUAL to that of the officers! Combine this with no player respec (can respec officers by spacing them and getting another) and HALF the skill tree being filled with three trees of worth of fleet boosting skills that only the player can pick. And even IF aptitudes were removed, players can't pick all of the fleet based skills... Not just this but ENEMY fleets also don't have to deal with this stuff
I don't know, it just never made sense to me that not only were aptitudes stripped of their skills but the player was given a level cap AND officers (not to mention enemy fleets) don't care about alot of stuff that the player has to (now with salaries being another nerf to the player)
Your "30 player level = 30 officer level" has some fallacious math in it. As you have it:
  • Officers: 21 effective skill points + 9 free skill points in aptitudes = 30 total points
  • Player: 42 effective skill points - 12 wasted skill points in aptitudes = 30 effective points

The comparison is either 30 vs 42, or 21 vs 30-36. Stop counting the aptitude points twice against the players.
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Cyan Leader

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #46 on: December 23, 2017, 07:20:39 AM »

This got me thinking, once this gets added wouldn't the game reach its 1.0 stage? What other major feature would be left after Colonies/Late game?
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Megas

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #47 on: December 23, 2017, 07:27:09 AM »

As I see it, it is officers' 21 vs. player's 30.  There are too many must-have player-only skills that exceed the nine point advantage player has over officers.  This is why player who want to be the best and/or have various QoL or exploration features locked behind skills, feels forced to play what Midnight calls "bard".  Player who wants to match officers' combat skill power really cannot without sacrificing too much power.  I am anticipating administrator envy on top of that with dread.

Combat:  Combat Endurance 1 is a must, due to AI stalling so much.  If player wants to use fighters (including gunships with Converted Hangar, which is a top-tier power option), then Helmsmanship 3 is a must to keep speed up while fighters are busy doing their thing.  That is three into Combat already, or one if forsaking fighters.

Leadership:  Multiple skills, but for me, Fleet Logistics 3 and Fighter Doctrine 3 are a given for every optimal character.  If I neither Salvage nor play mods, the Fighter Doctrine 2 is a must to get Converted Hangar.  Already three into Leadership already.

Technology:  Loadout Design 3 is a must, especially for extremely OP hungry carriers.  Even for non-carriers, it gets tiring mounting the same spartan loadout of open market weapons, high-to-max vents, and DTC/ITU on everything due to stingy OP budget.  Also, Electronic Warfare 1 to stay even with late-game enemies and maybe Navigation 3 for some people who dislike campaign obstacles.  Already three into Technology.

Industry:  This is must-max if player wants to play the exploration game.  Even if player does not want to play explorer, some of the other skills are nice QoL features.  Safety Procedures is also a decent combat buff.

That is a very likely nine point tax minimum into aptitudes.  If I want to explore, then twelve points will be sunk into aptitudes.

If the next iteration of the skill system keeps must-have level 3 perks scattered in at least three trees, such that the way to specialize (or generalize) is to cherry-pick the very best skills, then aptitudes will continue to remain viewed as taxes because player will need to spend nine or more points into aptitudes, and much of the tax is paid early when player is at his weakest.  Today, it is optimal to spend at least nine points on aptitudes for any character.  Later, if there will be fewer skills points, aptitudes will be an even bigger tax, despite condensed skills.
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Megas

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #48 on: December 23, 2017, 07:39:40 AM »

As for tutorial, I do it mainly for the early (random) heavy blaster and/or railguns.  Those weapons are rare enough that I am almost willing to start-scum the tutorial for them if I do not find them.  Also, having a ready-to-go starter kit is convenient.
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Alex

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #49 on: December 23, 2017, 09:59:53 AM »

I'm just hoping that concept of colony element to the game remains as an extension to the base game because over the years my will to play strategy and do math has withered almost to zero. I have more fun in SS when I steamroll over fleets of ships with one modded-in god-like commando ship than looking at pages and pages of micromanagement that'll drive me insane sooner or later.

If anything I'll probably still will just set up one colony for my own in-game fellow aliens and hopefully keep it going with Console Commands plus some light modding to make it all as much stressless for my brain as I can. Too much strategy has only driven me away from doing strategy to point of hating the very idea of strategy and use a proverbial sledgehammer to nuke the opposition and call it even. x_x

Fair enough :) Hopefully not much math would be required in the first place.


Oh I do agree that many players were helped by the tutorial however for every one or two that might have issues here, there are 4, 5 or 10 on other forums (4chan, Something Awful, Discord) that have issues as well. And in many of these places you can post anonymously and it allows people to be quite a bit more open and forthcoming, if a bit crude and crash. I see many complain about the early game and many modders also agree that the early game is quite brutal and that the game has an inverted difficulty curve (that is no doubt caused by in part the game's incompleteness)

Thanks for the info, I appreciate it. It's hard to draw exact conclusions (i.e. what fraction of people just don't say anything and are fine? vs don't say anything and have problems?) but the good thing is that I'm definitely seeing a *lot* less less people come to me with "getting started" issues (though of course many people have trouble getting off the ground, and I'm not trying to minimize that), and watching a few new players go through the game (via a few streams I've managed to catch), it's been a totally different experience than before due to the tutorial. As you say, though, it's not a cure-all.

Also, yeah, the end-game is easier because there's not too much of it. And it's another question - the early game is going to be more difficult for a new player than the late game because of the learning they'll do along the way, right? So the difficulty curve of a campaign playthrough looks different for a new player vs a more experienced one. Tuning too much for the former may lead to a worse experience for the latter, though I suppose that's where difficulty modes can come in.


That's the issue though: Officers are basically slightly weaker PCs that get to pick the fun skills. Their effective level is 30 (because no aptitudes and the bonus starting skill) and are able to get 7 of the 15 possible skills, spread out across 3 trees of skills. Meanwhile the player's effective skill level is anywhere between 36 (min. 2 aptitudes minus the two bonus points) to 30! which is EQUAL to that of the officers! Combine this with no player respec (can respec officers by spacing them and getting another) and HALF the skill tree being filled with three trees of worth of fleet boosting skills that only the player can pick. And even IF aptitudes were removed, players can't pick all of the fleet based skills... Not just this but ENEMY fleets also don't have to deal with this stuff
I don't know, it just never made sense to me that not only were aptitudes stripped of their skills but the player was given a level cap AND officers (not to mention enemy fleets) don't care about alot of stuff that the player has to (now with salaries being another nerf to the player)

Slightly dodge math aside, all I was really questioning there is the "no-one else has to pay" aspect of the argument. I will say that combat skills are definitely viable already - there's solid proof of that in being able to play through the game without *any* skills, so any skills you get are really gravy. A decent buff would probably bring them more in line with the rest, but it's already something you can invest in and be successful with.



I'm really exited for this, the outpost system will open quite a few new possibilities. I'd be curious to see how far a player faction can grow and what would be the effects on the global economy. While it seems unlikely the player will be able to reach something the size of the Hegemony or the League by fair means, i'd like to see the effects of some console command induced growth just for the hell of it.

That would be fun to see, if only to figure out what it takes to make the economy simulation crawl.


As for the early game "nerf" that MK is talking about, whether or not the salary drain will have a noticeable effect on the actual gameplay, it will definitely add an intimidation factor for beginners.

Hmm, that's a fair point.

An easy solution would be giving the aptitudes points a small bonus, similar to the old skill tree. Even a small percentage increase in whatever feels like progression to the player, instead of a "tax". That's also the occasion to condense further some of the current skills.

Ahh, that makes sense - there's more room for a minor bonus here if skills overall increase in power. Made a note to consider this. The one thing I don't like about it is it muddies the water as far as it being apparent what the function of aptitudes is. I mean, I can totally see "buff the Combat aptitude please, it's really bad compared to the skills" threads pop up.

Oh also... Can i offer AI cores to other factions in the hope they'll cause mischief? Gifting murderbot magnets should totally be a thing.

Mmmmmaybe.


So, could you talk a little about what kind of challenge colony building provides for the player, Alex? The blog post gave me the impression you can either do a good or bad job at it, but right now I don't quite see how you could mess it up. Base building challenge is typically dependent on thoughtful placement of stuff, even if just abstractly on a grid. From what I see positioning of does not seem to be a factor here. Other cases I can think of where positioning is irrelevant (like Heroes of Might and Magic) use bases more as a externalized "skill tree" where you just have to decide what to upgrade first. Aside from AI-core shenanigans, can a colony fail in any way?

Good question! I thought about doing a terrain grid with some ways to have a better or worse performing outpost depending on how well the player does. Ultimately, though, that feels too much like a mini-game, and I'm generally not a fan of those. So the idea is that you shouldn't be able to mess up the basic effectiveness of the things you build - i.e. you can add Mining, but you can't mess it up (or, on the flip side, do an extra good job with it). Well, you *can*, but that would be a higher-level decision of doing Mining on a mineral-poor world, let's say. Whether this mining operation will be successful will depend on outside-colony-internals factors.

What I was talking about in the blog post is, as far as doing a bad job of something - let's see, a couple of examples.

- Building a bunch of stuff on a high-hazard world, resulting in upkeep far outstripping income
- Building for the future but too early, again upkeep > income (or, just unneeded upkeep, really)

So, basically, it comes down to building stuff you either can't afford to maintain or don't need or both.

(Side note, related to your comment on the previous blog post: totally considering nuking reach now, and re-purposing waystations a bit. It's just such a pain in terms of conveying to the player.)


This got me thinking, once this gets added wouldn't the game reach its 1.0 stage? What other major feature would be left after Colonies/Late game?

There's stuff - content, and possibly a few mechanics that won't make it into the next release, because it's kind of massive.
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Megas

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #50 on: December 23, 2017, 10:01:11 AM »

From the sounds of Alpha cores administrators, that sounds like "Wish: More XP (and money)" that will result in a fight with major demons or something.  In other words, if player wants a fight (or more rare loot), stick an Alpha Core admin in a colony that outlived its usefulness (because player found better), let it take over, then farm the never-ending streams of Remnants for rare items and/or destroy its battlestation.
Alternatively, it might *** off the signatories of the Second AI War Treaty and have them knocking on your doorstep.
Missed this, but...

Eventually, assuming the game will support faction elimination as in Nexerelin, it does not matter if they get angry at me using cores because they will get angry anyway when I start invading and destroying them around endgame.  (Seizing their markets or planets to make my faction even richer is optional.)  Who cares when they are angry if they are dead shortly after war starts and my faction rules supreme?

None of the major factions are sypathetic.  Just tools to be used when useful, then destroyed when they outlive their usefulness and become competition.
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Megas

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #51 on: December 23, 2017, 10:22:55 AM »

Quote
Ahh, that makes sense - there's more room for a minor bonus here if skills overall increase in power. Made a note to consider this. The one thing I don't like about it is it muddies the water as far as it being apparent what the function of aptitudes is. I mean, I can totally see "buff the Combat aptitude please, it's really bad compared to the skills" threads pop up.
The reasons Combat is bad...

* None of the skills are significant game-changers, except Helmsmanship 3 for a carrier, and maybe Combat Endurance 1 to let a ship with lots of peak performance outlast an enemy in a stalling game (or let a ship with normally low peak performance stay in battle as long as other ships).  Before 0.8, a max-skilled Wolf could destroy an unskilled Onslaught (while unskilled Wolf simply died), and skilled Onslaught could solo simulator-sized fights.  Today, Medusa with Combat skills struggles against an Eagle almost as much as an unskilled Medusa.  Similarly, my slower bigger ships still cannot catch up to smaller ships and engage.  In other words, combat skills are minor enhancements, but do not let my ships do anything they could not do while unskilled.  Helmsmanship 3 is an exception that it lets my carrier flagship kite from everything while fighters kill everyone.

* Some of the bonuses (like more max CR) are set when a ship burns in.  For those, it is more cost effective to get more max officers from Officer Management, train one or both of the two for those skills they can take, then transfer to their ships for their set bonuses.

* In few cases, Leadership provides better bonuses for the same cost.  For example, Combat Endurance 3 gives +15% CR for one ship (and player or officer must get the lemon called Combat Endurance 2).  Fleet Logistics 3 gives +15% CR to everyone (and the previous Fleet Logistics levels are all great), but only the player can take it.  Also, one of the Damage Control perks lets the player always recover a ship in battle, but if player gets Fleet Logistics (and it is one of the best skills at all levels), then Damage Control 1 becomes useless aside from prerequisite to Damage Control 2 (which is nice).  Simply put, Combat does not give enough bang for the buck, and with many other highly rewarding skills akin to Fleet Logistics and Loadout Design that tend to help the fleet elsewhere, player who wants power must get the buffer skills and play "bard".
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 10:47:29 AM by Megas »
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Igncom1

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #52 on: December 23, 2017, 10:33:32 AM »

The reach for one colony to trade with another, doesn't that depend on the trader more then the location? Small trader NPC's who don't have any fuel tankers are much more limited in fuel range for travel then a massive salvager fleet with strategic level fuel tankers.

So wouldn't reach or range from one colony to another just affect the volume of traders willing to make the trip rather then some kind of yes/no value?

Not to mention travelling a long way only for the destination port to have no fuel, which is a mistake I frequently make.

I would suppose way stations might be more like a fuel depot where weary travellers can resupply and refuel before continuing their journey. Which would need a source of fuel, local or import in order to act as a reach extender.

Connecting to the central fuel refineries of the sector might be enough for a fuel leap frogging scheme for the players faction to encourage traffic down their interstellar highway. But a player owned source would likely be so much cheaper as to be a viable source of income from sales. All before you set up the space tourist traps.

Assuming I am making any sense whatsoever.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 10:35:10 AM by Igncom1 »
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Alex

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #53 on: December 23, 2017, 10:53:53 AM »

Today, Medusa with Combat skills struggles against an Eagle almost as much as an unskilled Medusa.

Hmm - I think you may want to take another look, maybe you're assuming a few things about what's optimal that no longer quite hold up? A max-combat-skilled "Attack" Medusa variant (let alone one that includes the tech skills as well) easily mauls an unskilled Eagle while taking no hull damage. A loadout with Heavy Blasters etc has a lot more trouble, though, but that one is more of a "team player".

I mean, I think you definitely have a point as far as forcing engagements etc, but the Medusa/Eagle thing just doesn't seem at all accurate.


Spoiler
The reach for one colony to trade with another, doesn't that depend on the trader more then the location? Small trader NPC's who don't have any fuel tankers are much more limited in fuel range for travel then a massive salvager fleet with strategic level fuel tankers.

So wouldn't reach or range from one colony to another just affect the volume of traders willing to make the trip rather then some kind of yes/no value?

Not to mention travelling a long way only for the destination port to have no fuel, which is a mistake I frequently make.

I would suppose way stations might be more like a fuel depot where weary travellers can resupply and refuel before continuing their journey. Which would need a source of fuel, local or import in order to act as a reach extender.

Connecting to the central fuel refineries of the sector might be enough for a fuel leap frogging scheme for the players faction to encourage traffic down their interstellar highway. But a player owned source would likely be so much cheaper as to be a viable source of income from sales. All before you set up the space tourist traps.

Assuming I am making any sense whatsoever.
[close]

Well, reach mechanics on the colony/campaign level should be all about what makes things work right as far as UI/gameplay/mechanics/etc. I'm not sure that starting from "what would make sense" is necessarily very productive here - a lot of things might make sense depending on the economics and assorted in-fiction details, but what we really want is something that's easy for the player to digest and to interact with.

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Megas

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #54 on: December 23, 2017, 12:36:38 PM »

Today, Medusa with Combat skills struggles against an Eagle almost as much as an unskilled Medusa.

Hmm - I think you may want to take another look, maybe you're assuming a few things about what's optimal that no longer quite hold up? A max-combat-skilled "Attack" Medusa variant (let alone one that includes the tech skills as well) easily mauls an unskilled Eagle while taking no hull damage. A loadout with Heavy Blasters etc has a lot more trouble, though, but that one is more of a "team player".

I mean, I think you definitely have a point as far as forcing engagements etc, but the Medusa/Eagle thing just doesn't seem at all accurate.
I did, and you are right.  Not only Attack Medusa, but also a couple custom configurations I use for the 0.8.x environment.  Actually, two Heavy Blasters and Railguns does not have much more trouble, Medusa just does a bit more hit-and-run and venting, but the Eagle is dead very fast.  What I like to use is Needlers, one Heavy Blaster, and one Ion Beam.  Needlers for shield damage, Ion Beam for piercing, and Blaster as a finisher, and that works too.  (Without skills, Eagle was too hard.  Almost got it with the Needler, Blaster, and Ion Beam combo while unskilled once, but one mistake on unresponsive shields blew that attempt.)

Later, I tried skilled Medusa against SIM Onslaught then SIM Paragon.  Onslaught was dead soon enough, but Medusa was overpowered by Paragon.  (I did not spend too much time trying to kill capitals.)

It is likely that either I used a more 0.7.2 style loadout, tested it against a different ship, or I did not have all of the Combat skills when I did that first test long ago.

That is the thing.  For my flagship to have that much Combat power, I need to give up everything else - fleet, carrier-and-fighters, exploration, and various QoL, including all-powerful Loadout Design 3.  My combat monster is a one-trick pony, and unlike pre-0.8.x, my combat monster is not all-powerful.  (I also remember trying full combat Paragon against the simulator, and Paragon was helpless against frigates due to them refusing to engage until thirty or so could swarm and attack at once; no way Paragon can defend against that many assailants.)  I do not need to make such a sacrifice with other archetypes like carrier specialist.  With a carrier specialist, I might not be able to get everything to qualify as a generalist, but at least have few leftover points to grab exploration, QoL, or some combat skills to round out a bit more.

The main problems with Combat or personal-only skills is it costs too much to get enough to matter (unless player can avoid junk perks) and more officers can probably do much of that job instead of player.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 12:42:50 PM by Megas »
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Drokkath

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #55 on: December 23, 2017, 01:36:15 PM »

I'm just hoping that concept of colony element to the game remains as an extension to the base game because over the years my will to play strategy and do math has withered almost to zero. I have more fun in SS when I steamroll over fleets of ships with one modded-in god-like commando ship than looking at pages and pages of micromanagement that'll drive me insane sooner or later.

If anything I'll probably still will just set up one colony for my own in-game fellow aliens and hopefully keep it going with Console Commands plus some light modding to make it all as much stressless for my brain as I can. Too much strategy has only driven me away from doing strategy to point of hating the very idea of strategy and use a proverbial sledgehammer to nuke the opposition and call it even. x_x

Fair enough :) Hopefully not much math would be required in the first place.

Thanks, I'm most likely in the very minority here with this but I felt like responding still just in-case.

To clarify what I meant a bit more is that I'm still able to do minor amounts of strategy more than math aka I guesstimate instead of doing math so essentially when it comes to math I think of numbers as tetris blocks. In strategy games, usually somewhere at late early-game to stressful mid-game to (especially) infuriating end-game are all risky areas where my proverbial fuse gets shorter due to stress and inability to play any further. Hence why I can't never finish 90% of the mission campaigns in SS still because by the time I find something that gets me further a bit I'm just too unstable to progress any further as that part of the game becomes exercise in extreme frustration.

So yeah... that is pretty much why I don't bother playing SS like everyone else and instead resort to doing some modding and cheating to turn things in my favor ten-fold because I like a lot how the combat feels in the game, especially when things are in my favor. Mind you, as far as difficulty goes I'm not suggesting an easier way to play here as I already know how to mod in an altered ship and a few super weapons for it to feel awesome playing in normal difficulty. It's just the upcoming colony system that got me wondering about how it could affect me. :-\
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Mr. Nobody

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #56 on: December 23, 2017, 03:06:59 PM »

So, since we can assign cores to manage colonies, when can we expect the ability (or the APIs) to bolster up our ships capabilities by having wAIfu Cores manage certain components of the ship? Like, i dunno, the flux conduits or the engines?

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Coriantumr

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #57 on: December 23, 2017, 05:19:00 PM »

Would love it if alpha cores had identities (unique serial numbers) and simple personalities consisting of a solitary trait (their level of submissiveness/rebelliousness) which determines the likelihood/intensity of their subversive actions. The player would have to learn, perhaps through trial and error alone, which alpha cores could be trusted. Would also love to see AI cores installed in ships, especially if it means a rebellious ai might abandon you in mid-battle by speeding off with one of your ships. Hunting down that AI to recover it, and the ship it stole, would be a fantastic player-driven mission.

I don't find the early-game to be too difficult (although I haven't been a brand new player for a long time), but I agree that the game becomes too easy in the mid-late game. I'm hoping that, with the advent of faction-building, growing your faction quickly draws negative attention from existing factions. I'd even like to see most/all factions uniting against the player faction as the player becomes too powerful in the very late game. I think the player should have to plan carefully in order to survive the hostility they will face when they start claiming planets and drawing immigrant populations away from other factions.

In other words, I'd like to see the npc factions 'playing to win' which should mean that they try desperately to stop anyone else (especially the player) from winning (dominating the sector). I think that would result in an appropriate progression in difficulty.

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AspirantEmperor

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #58 on: December 23, 2017, 06:52:51 PM »

Just want to chime in, as a new-er-ish player, the most challenging part is the information dump. It takes you time to learn about the world. You need to see how tariffs make trade-based profit difficult, and then how food shortages, etc, provide opportunities to profit anyway. You need to learn from hard experience that unnecessary, reward-less combat is a bad thing. You need to realize how important it is to keep that last 5-10k in the bank and not spend it on a new ship. You'll need it for repairs, fuel, product for trade, etc, before you make more. The tutorial helps massively with teaching you some basics, and for telling you what you can do. And it leaves you in a much better starting place than you'd be in without it. But you still need to learn what you should do on your own. Once you know that, Starsector's start - even sans tutorial - isn't that bad. I've started 6 games now (most haven't gone far), and I'm now quite confident I can get up and running.

So yea, introduce wages if you want; it won't stop me. And for the completely new player, I think a bigger concern is not "how do we avoid intimidating them" but more "how do we help them feel there's something clear and useful they can do to overcome it."

When it comes to skills, I think compressing each branch to six skills will probably help combat, since combat has the most skills to compress down. But may I propose a solution I haven't seen here yet? You could nerf officers. I was really surprised when I saw they could learn up to 7 skills (I was expecting 4 or 5), because with 7 an officer is as good at their job as anyone could be (barring player skill). And you could make an argument that combat skills are more valuable on the player than on officers because player skill acts as a multiplier, but a player comparing the stats of their ship under their command to under their officer's won't feel that way. Besides,

1) As the game goes on, fights tend to get larger. And as fights get larger, the player's ship becomes a smaller part of the overall fleet, and skills that benefit only their ship become less valuable.

and 2) As ships get larger, they become less mobile. Less mobility means less ability to capitalize on an opportunity, and so player skill becomes less important (not worthless, just less important). Personally I think this is a good thing; I like that there's an incentive a player might fly a cruiser or maybe a top-notch destroyer even when a fight has capital ships. However, it does mean that officers become more powerful relative to the player as the game progresses and ships get larger.

As the game goes on, a combat-focused player will probably feel progressively weaker. An officer has seven skills, which is more than just a noticeable improvement over an officer-less ship; it's enough to get everything relevant to the officer's role. Even a player that gets more combat skills than the officer won't feel stronger, because the additional skills they have are ones that wouldn't benefit the officer much anyway. It gets even worse for a player who wants to build half-and-half combat and utility, because if he does want to fight he's still outclassed by officers and if he's never going to fight, he may as well have picked up more utility instead.

By comparison, Fleet Logistics and Fighter Doctrine stay steady in power, no matter how large the fleet. Loadout Design may even become better as ships become more specialized and ordinance points allow that (10% better overall becomes ~20% better at your job & no change in irrelevant stuff). I expect these will keep a non-combat player relevant even if the officer level cap is lower.

But I've gone on longer than I meant to. I just wanted to say that for a combat build (or half-and-half build) to be useful, a player must be able to out-perform an officer at their own job (or tie them, in the case of half-and-half). If we move to a system with 8 combat skills (6 in the combat tree and the 2 currently under technology) I'd be worried if an officer could learn more than 3.

But, believe it or not, that was just preamble because I wanted to talk about colonies and ways to fail. I can think of two ways a colony could fail - emigration and a slow (or not-so-slow) dying out, and conquest. (Also revolution, but I don't think there's going to be enough internal management of the planet to make that fair.)

If you have immigration numbers, and those numbers can be negative, then I'd expect there's a way for a population to fall (or not, that might get tricky). If it can fall, and it falls below 3, it makes sense that the population might just disband and abandon the world. It might be difficult to get immigration numbers that low, but I'd hope that it would happen if the planet had no supply - local, stockpile, or traded - of a basic good (food, fuel, supplies, maybe domestic goods). That alone should doom any colony on the edge of space without waystations, though I could also see it happening if a player went to war with their only supplier of something.

This may not be intended, but I would personally love the challenge of setting up 2 or 3 colonies at the same time in deep space such that they each produce what each other needs. Though I guess it might produce overly-profitable player trade routes since there would be two completely isolated sets of markets. Of course, I expect this to be a non-starter because the player won't be able to produce fuel anywhere. (That all seems to come from dominion-era tech. Though, two-birds-one-stone, a dominion antimatter fuel assembly would be a hell of a thing to loot from a dominion mothership. Also, if you did loot one, there's almost no way the other factions wouldn't take interest in your colony and its valuable, irreplaceable strategic resource.)

Which leads to the next threat: conquest. I'd imagine a new, lightly-equipped colony would be a prime target for small pirate fleets, at least until its first defenses came online. That would mean you could only establish a colony once you had the ability to fight for it. And I'd imagine the fighting is harder the closer you are to the core worlds (and by extension, most pirates). This is the trouble that replaces stretched trade - which is not a problem so close to core worlds. Though I picture pirate raids largely dying out once the colony has some way to defend itself. You wouldn't want to make the player stay there forever.

Of course, other parties might become interested. The Hegemony may want to preempt a strong faction that might side with the Persean League (because that went so well last time.) The Ludds might take issue with heavy industry, doubly so on a Terran or other god-given wonder-world. I think it's just a reality that having a prosperous planet means you'd need to defend it once in a while, even if it can handle any non-noteworthy threat itself. I just hope it's not frequent enough to make the long travel time to go defend remote settlements feel like a drag.

So, how's that for a second comment? Please excuse me while I never type again.
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Alex

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Re: Colony Management
« Reply #59 on: December 24, 2017, 11:59:07 AM »

I did, and you are right.  Not only Attack Medusa, but also a couple custom configurations I use for the 0.8.x environment.  Actually, two Heavy Blasters and Railguns does not have much more trouble, Medusa just does a bit more hit-and-run and venting, but the Eagle is dead very fast.  What I like to use is Needlers, one Heavy Blaster, and one Ion Beam.  Needlers for shield damage, Ion Beam for piercing, and Blaster as a finisher, and that works too.  (Without skills, Eagle was too hard.  Almost got it with the Needler, Blaster, and Ion Beam combo while unskilled once, but one mistake on unresponsive shields blew that attempt.)

Later, I tried skilled Medusa against SIM Onslaught then SIM Paragon.  Onslaught was dead soon enough, but Medusa was overpowered by Paragon.  (I did not spend too much time trying to kill capitals.)

It is likely that either I used a more 0.7.2 style loadout, tested it against a different ship, or I did not have all of the Combat skills when I did that first test long ago.

That is the thing.  For my flagship to have that much Combat power, I need to give up everything else - fleet, carrier-and-fighters, exploration, and various QoL, including all-powerful Loadout Design 3.  My combat monster is a one-trick pony, and unlike pre-0.8.x, my combat monster is not all-powerful.  (I also remember trying full combat Paragon against the simulator, and Paragon was helpless against frigates due to them refusing to engage until thirty or so could swarm and attack at once; no way Paragon can defend against that many assailants.)  I do not need to make such a sacrifice with other archetypes like carrier specialist.  With a carrier specialist, I might not be able to get everything to qualify as a generalist, but at least have few leftover points to grab exploration, QoL, or some combat skills to round out a bit more.

The main problems with Combat or personal-only skills is it costs too much to get enough to matter (unless player can avoid junk perks) and more officers can probably do much of that job instead of player.

I wonder how many of the skills are really necessary to make a difference. For 1v1s, the defensive skills may be important if you can't outrange, but in a fleet setting, I think just getting the offensive skills may be enough to get most of the benefit, and that starts to be more affordable point-wise.

Not saying that Combat isn't a bit weaker overall - I think it is, and the various arguments as to why hold water - but I do think its viability is underrated. (Also, side note, it *should* be somewhat weaker in terms of total fleet strength, since it's also cheaper.)

One other thing I was thinking about for a skill revamp is adding an extra "mastery" effect to all the combat skills, unlocked at level 3 for each skill, that would apply to all ships in the fleet (including the flagship). It wouldn't add up to anywhere near having an officer on board, but it'd be something the player can't get without investing into the skill personally.

Again, though, entirely undecided on changes as of yet, just mulling these things over.


To clarify what I meant a bit more is that I'm still able to do minor amounts of strategy more than math aka I guesstimate instead of doing math so essentially when it comes to math I think of numbers as tetris blocks. In strategy games, usually somewhere at late early-game to stressful mid-game to (especially) infuriating end-game are all risky areas where my proverbial fuse gets shorter due to stress and inability to play any further. Hence why I can't never finish 90% of the mission campaigns in SS still because by the time I find something that gets me further a bit I'm just too unstable to progress any further as that part of the game becomes exercise in extreme frustration.

So yeah... that is pretty much why I don't bother playing SS like everyone else and instead resort to doing some modding and cheating to turn things in my favor ten-fold because I like a lot how the combat feels in the game, especially when things are in my favor. Mind you, as far as difficulty goes I'm not suggesting an easier way to play here as I already know how to mod in an altered ship and a few super weapons for it to feel awesome playing in normal difficulty. It's just the upcoming colony system that got me wondering about how it could affect me. :-\

Yep, I gotcha. My patience for certain types of games is also more than a bit low. The important part is to have fun, and I'm glad the mods let you do that.


So, since we can assign cores to manage colonies, when can we expect the ability (or the APIs) to bolster up our ships capabilities by having wAIfu Cores manage certain components of the ship? Like, i dunno, the flux conduits or the engines?

I doubt it, tbh. I mean, I could see some sort of system where a specific hullmod requires an AI core to install or whatever, but that's such a side thing.



So, how's that for a second comment? Please excuse me while I never type again.

Ha! Welcome to the forum, by the way :)

Just want to chime in, as a new-er-ish player, the most challenging part is the information dump. It takes you time to learn about the world. You need to see how tariffs make trade-based profit difficult, and then how food shortages, etc, provide opportunities to profit anyway. You need to learn from hard experience that unnecessary, reward-less combat is a bad thing. You need to realize how important it is to keep that last 5-10k in the bank and not spend it on a new ship. You'll need it for repairs, fuel, product for trade, etc, before you make more. The tutorial helps massively with teaching you some basics, and for telling you what you can do. And it leaves you in a much better starting place than you'd be in without it. But you still need to learn what you should do on your own. Once you know that, Starsector's start - even sans tutorial - isn't that bad. I've started 6 games now (most haven't gone far), and I'm now quite confident I can get up and running.

Thank you for the feedback here, always great to get more info from a new-player perspective.


Spoiler
When it comes to skills, I think compressing each branch to six skills will probably help combat, since combat has the most skills to compress down. But may I propose a solution I haven't seen here yet? You could nerf officers. I was really surprised when I saw they could learn up to 7 skills (I was expecting 4 or 5), because with 7 an officer is as good at their job as anyone could be (barring player skill). And you could make an argument that combat skills are more valuable on the player than on officers because player skill acts as a multiplier, but a player comparing the stats of their ship under their command to under their officer's won't feel that way. Besides,

1) As the game goes on, fights tend to get larger. And as fights get larger, the player's ship becomes a smaller part of the overall fleet, and skills that benefit only their ship become less valuable.

and 2) As ships get larger, they become less mobile. Less mobility means less ability to capitalize on an opportunity, and so player skill becomes less important (not worthless, just less important). Personally I think this is a good thing; I like that there's an incentive a player might fly a cruiser or maybe a top-notch destroyer even when a fight has capital ships. However, it does mean that officers become more powerful relative to the player as the game progresses and ships get larger.

As the game goes on, a combat-focused player will probably feel progressively weaker. An officer has seven skills, which is more than just a noticeable improvement over an officer-less ship; it's enough to get everything relevant to the officer's role. Even a player that gets more combat skills than the officer won't feel stronger, because the additional skills they have are ones that wouldn't benefit the officer much anyway. It gets even worse for a player who wants to build half-and-half combat and utility, because if he does want to fight he's still outclassed by officers and if he's never going to fight, he may as well have picked up more utility instead.

By comparison, Fleet Logistics and Fighter Doctrine stay steady in power, no matter how large the fleet. Loadout Design may even become better as ships become more specialized and ordinance points allow that (10% better overall becomes ~20% better at your job & no change in irrelevant stuff). I expect these will keep a non-combat player relevant even if the officer level cap is lower.

But I've gone on longer than I meant to. I just wanted to say that for a combat build (or half-and-half build) to be useful, a player must be able to out-perform an officer at their own job (or tie them, in the case of half-and-half). If we move to a system with 8 combat skills (6 in the combat tree and the 2 currently under technology) I'd be worried if an officer could learn more than 3.
[close]

Yep, I get what you're saying here. I think there's some nuance and future details that may affect how this adds up.

For example, suppose that you're able to fight alongside fleets launched by your colonies. That changes the equation drastically - all of a sudden, personal skills matter a lot more, because your allied ships have their own officers/fleet skills etc, and what you'd take wouldn't affect them anyway. So you could either fight alongside them with a fleet (sharing limited deployment points), or contribute your maxed-out flagship (which would make the overall force potentially much stronger).

Also, while the general point of "as battles get larger, the player's ship matters less" makes sense, I don't think in practice it holds up quite as well. The larger ships are slower, but some have mobility systems (the Onslaught in particular can really get around), and even the Paragon can make half-decent time with Helmsmanship 3 - and it's got extra range to help it out. Larger ships also do the work more quickly when they get there, and battles involving larger ships tend to be slower overall, giving you more time to work with. So, yeah, in a hypothetical infinite-sized battle, the player won't matter much, but with the sizes we have to work with, I think player influence can scale pretty well.

(But, to your main point - officers are probably a bit too good, though I don't think by very much.)


(That all seems to come from dominion-era tech. Though, two-birds-one-stone, a dominion antimatter fuel assembly would be a hell of a thing to loot from a dominion mothership. Also, if you did loot one, there's almost no way the other factions wouldn't take interest in your colony and its valuable, irreplaceable strategic resource.)

That would be fun, wouldn't it?


Which leads to the next threat: conquest. I'd imagine a new, lightly-equipped colony would be a prime target for small pirate fleets, at least until its first defenses came online. That would mean you could only establish a colony once you had the ability to fight for it. And I'd imagine the fighting is harder the closer you are to the core worlds (and by extension, most pirates). This is the trouble that replaces stretched trade - which is not a problem so close to core worlds. Though I picture pirate raids largely dying out once the colony has some way to defend itself. You wouldn't want to make the player stay there forever.

Of course, other parties might become interested. The Hegemony may want to preempt a strong faction that might side with the Persean League (because that went so well last time.) The Ludds might take issue with heavy industry, doubly so on a Terran or other god-given wonder-world. I think it's just a reality that having a prosperous planet means you'd need to defend it once in a while, even if it can handle any non-noteworthy threat itself. I just hope it's not frequent enough to make the long travel time to go defend remote settlements feel like a drag.

I don't find the early-game to be too difficult (although I haven't been a brand new player for a long time), but I agree that the game becomes too easy in the mid-late game. I'm hoping that, with the advent of faction-building, growing your faction quickly draws negative attention from existing factions. I'd even like to see most/all factions uniting against the player faction as the player becomes too powerful in the very late game. I think the player should have to plan carefully in order to survive the hostility they will face when they start claiming planets and drawing immigrant populations away from other factions.

Yep, this more or less matches up with how I'm thinking about this. Let's see how it pans out :)
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