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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Population Growth  (Read 26840 times)

Histidine

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Re: Population Growth
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2017, 06:07:02 PM »

"We need more recreational drugs to attract immigrants and stimulate population growth!" makes me giggle inside each time.

This is awesome! I don't know if it's been said before, but I noticed that you're able to develop a Luddic colony?

Well, in the current dev build, you can manage markets belonging to other factions, so I'm just taking screenshots at all sorts of core markets, for color variety.
Nexerelin-related request: Could we get API controls (on a per-market basis) for that? So a player could get authority over markets as they advance in standing with the faction.
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Alex

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Re: Population Growth
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2017, 06:31:17 PM »

in the same vein, is there/can there be an option to cap immigration?

Haven't exactly decided - there's some potential for adding a "close immigration" option, but I'd like to make sure it's not mechanically just a trap option if I do that.

"We need more recreational drugs to attract immigrants and stimulate population growth!" makes me giggle inside each time.

Well, it makes sense, right? Gets a bad reputation among the miners and all that :) "Not a bad place all things considered, but the price of crash is waaaay too high."

Nexerelin-related request: Could we get API controls (on a per-market basis) for that? So a player could get authority over markets as they advance in standing with the faction.

Yep - there's already MarketAPI.set/isPlayerOwned(). Keeping my options open as far as what commissions might do, which is right in line with what you're looking for here.
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orost

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Re: Population Growth
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2017, 02:45:12 AM »


If we have high enough standing with a faction, will we be able to create colonies for them instead of it being the player faction? As well, if I create a colony in the player faction, will I be able to sell that colony to a faction? If it hasn't been discussed or mentioned yet I think that would be quite an interesting play style, setting up colonies and selling them off to the highest bidder.

Maybe? It's all stuff I'm thinking about to various degrees (perhaps less about selling colonies as a playstyle, specifically), but I really can't say right now.


High-level, long-term mission where you are tasked with creating a colony matching specific criteria and handing it off to a faction? I don't know if it fits with your mechanics but it sounds awesome in my head.
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HELMUT

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Re: Population Growth
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2017, 04:04:10 AM »


If we have high enough standing with a faction, will we be able to create colonies for them instead of it being the player faction? As well, if I create a colony in the player faction, will I be able to sell that colony to a faction? If it hasn't been discussed or mentioned yet I think that would be quite an interesting play style, setting up colonies and selling them off to the highest bidder.

Maybe? It's all stuff I'm thinking about to various degrees (perhaps less about selling colonies as a playstyle, specifically), but I really can't say right now.


High-level, long-term mission where you are tasked with creating a colony matching specific criteria and handing it off to a faction? I don't know if it fits with your mechanics but it sounds awesome in my head.

While it sounds good, i'm a bit worried about possible performance issues. I guess the player will be limited (through skills?) to only a few outposts. However i can't imagine a limit when it comes to selling them, and that's potentially dozen of new markets in the sector during a long campaign, now in the AI's possession. The sector economy and our computers might not like that.

Now it'll only be a real problem depending on how quick and easy the player can build and sell a new outpost. If it takes forever to screw the game, well, i'd say it works well enough.

Unrelated :

Quote
For example, a habitable world will attract more members of the Luddic Church, a Commerce industry will attract some Tri-Tachyon-aligned population, a “free port” condition will attract pirates, and the use of AI cores may attract other parties.

Not sure that last part will be amount immigration somehow.
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Megas

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Re: Population Growth
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2017, 05:20:25 AM »

If the only penalty to using cores is angry factions (e.g., Luddic Covens and Cults), then it is high time to purge those factions from the sector.  Something I would do anyway since my endgame goal is complete sector domination (i.e., destroy all factions).

On the other hand, if using cores risks them going rogue and turning your colony into a Remnant battlestation, then using them would be useful only out of desperation... or if I get bored and want more Remnants to fight (especially if I killed them all previously).

Hmmm... that would be something to do too.  I need to pick a fight with Remnants, but I already killed their battlestations?  No problem, I will build one and let it go rogue on purpose so I can resurrect the item farm (of plasma cannons, HVDs, Atropos, LPCs, and more cores).  Currently, I do not destroy battlestations because farming their infinite ships for infinite loot is much more useful.  Do not want to kill the golden goose.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 05:23:01 AM by Megas »
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orost

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Re: Population Growth
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2017, 06:00:19 AM »

While it sounds good, i'm a bit worried about possible performance issues. I guess the player will be limited (through skills?) to only a few outposts. However i can't imagine a limit when it comes to selling them, and that's potentially dozen of new markets in the sector during a long campaign, now in the AI's possession. The sector economy and our computers might not like that.


I was under the impression that the number of markets will be a non-issue for performance in the new version with the economy rewrite.
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gotry

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Re: Population Growth
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2017, 06:55:25 AM »

Does the pop system track emigration numbers, or do pops just die if there are negative growth factors? What about refugee populations?

I really enjoy the style of run-down, reclaimed and hastily repailed that goes with the idea of being a refugee in space on some derelict station. It'd be cool to see some sort of a population dynamic etc tied with small, transiently inhabited stations popping up and disappearing as refugees move. Maybe tied with early game trading to supply their limited needs or something.
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Gothars

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Re: Population Growth
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2017, 06:56:28 AM »

Can you pack a transport ship full of crew and them debark them on your colony to grow it manually? For a size 3 or 4 market that should theoretically have a major influence :)



Can you tell us more about the "later fun things" that can come out of tracking the population composition? An influence on resource output (Hegemony pops are better industry workers, Luddites are better farmers etc.)? Or more like "unrest if you have a majority stemming from a faction you are at war with", with a chance of revolutions and stuff like that?

If populations have distinct faction-specific attitudes and/or skills, can the player faction also (eventually) have pops with a distinct culture that influences these parameters?





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The game was completed 8 years ago and we get a free expansion every year.

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Clockwork Owl

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Re: Population Growth
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2017, 07:07:43 AM »

Can market conditions emerge or disappear dynamically? I mean, with population composition being tracked(although vague), I can see something like Organized Crime, Luddic Majority etc coming up as the outpost grows. As well as market conditions affecting the compositions(Does it already do that?).
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Alex

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Re: Population Growth
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2017, 09:16:24 AM »

While it sounds good, i'm a bit worried about possible performance issues. I guess the player will be limited (through skills?) to only a few outposts. However i can't imagine a limit when it comes to selling them, and that's potentially dozen of new markets in the sector during a long campaign, now in the AI's possession. The sector economy and our computers might not like that.

I was under the impression that the number of markets will be a non-issue for performance in the new version with the economy rewrite.

Yeah, I'm not sure. I mean, filling up the entire Sector with outposts would definitely cause problems, while something like doubling the core world amount shouldn't, but where in between is the boundary? It's hard to say without doing a bunch of testing.


Does the pop system track emigration numbers, or do pops just die if there are negative growth factors? What about refugee populations?

Neither, I think? It just tracks a percentage towards the next size up.

I really enjoy the style of run-down, reclaimed and hastily repailed that goes with the idea of being a refugee in space on some derelict station. It'd be cool to see some sort of a population dynamic etc tied with small, transiently inhabited stations popping up and disappearing as refugees move. Maybe tied with early game trading to supply their limited needs or something.

I could see that sort of thing as a standalone mission, maybe. But with the core worlds being relatively close together, there's not much space in-between for transient stations etc.


Can you pack a transport ship full of crew and them debark them on your colony to grow it manually? For a size 3 or 4 market that should theoretically have a major influence :)

Hmm, not as things stand. Could be a fun thing to do, but it also sounds like the sort of hacky one-off that might make things difficult in the long run. E.G. you might feel forced to keep buying up crew to bring to your outposts, there might be exploits related to buying up crew *from your own outpost* to put back in, etc. Probably wouldn't make much difference for size 4 and up, too, since we're dealing with 100k+ populations.

Can you tell us more about the "later fun things" that can come out of tracking the population composition? An influence on resource output (Hegemony pops are better industry workers, Luddites are better farmers etc.)? Or more like "unrest if you have a majority stemming from a faction you are at war with", with a chance of revolutions and stuff like that?

Most of those are on the table, actually! The general idea is that population composition (plus other factors) can lead to your markets getting specific conditions, which may be harmful or beneficial. I've got a running list of conditions I'd like to put in, but haven't gotten to actually implementing that yet.

Some I'm more excited about than others - I mean, a farming bonus is neat RP-wise, but it's just a stat bonus. An example somewhere in the mid-to-high tier of my excitement level (spoilered because 1) spoilers and 2) the mechanics could change entirely, and in fact this is not at all  guarantee that the thing involved would work exactly like that, but something probably will):
Spoiler
Let's say you've had a "free port" for a long time, but eventually decide to clamp down - need that stability. A few months later, "organized crime" pops up, and pirates start preying on shipping. You track some of them back to a nearby system, which has an established pirate base. It's too strong to take head on immediately, so you spend some time picking off fleets and attacking important installations on the fringes and eventually take on their remaining fleets guarding the pirate station.

... or, you make some sort of deal with the local crime boss.
[close]

So, something like that. Ideally, I'd like for the negative conditions to have resolutions that drive you towards combat gameplay and not shuffling numbers around. That's not to say everything will be like that - for some things like "general unrest in the population" it might not make a lot of sense - but that's what I think would add the most to the gameplay.


If populations have distinct faction-specific attitudes and/or skills, can the player faction also (eventually) have pops with a distinct culture that influences these parameters?

I don't think so. Heck, I don't think every faction is going to have these kinds of attitudes in the first place. The Luddic Church/Path/etc will, since it's less "faction" and more "culture". Pirates/criminals will, because, well - not so much "culture", but certainly a different set of attitudes. Your average Hegemony citizen isn't much different from a Tri-Tachyonite or an independent, though - most of the differences there are at the top.


Can market conditions emerge or disappear dynamically? I mean, with population composition being tracked(although vague), I can see something like Organized Crime, Luddic Majority etc coming up as the outpost grows. As well as market conditions affecting the compositions(Does it already do that?).

I think the above mostly answered that, but yeah. And yes to conditions affecting the compositions as well, e.g. good farmland will attract more luddics.
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SCC

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Re: Population Growth
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2017, 02:43:42 PM »

Starsector: The 4x edition!

From this post (admittedly specifically about population growth), it seems like the natural progression for outposts/colonies/markets is to get bigger.

Is this necessarily the case? Is there a place in the game for small and mean installations, research installations, shipyards, or hideouts that are ran more like a military base than a civilian society?
If it was up to me, I'd say that outposts with less roles would naturally be smaller - very rich planet with no other modifiers would make a profitable mining outpost, but it would remain small because not much people like to live here (it's inconvenient), whereas a world with 2 or 3 sparse resource modifiers would over time grow larger, even though immediately it would be much less profitable.

King Alfonzo

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Re: Population Growth
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2017, 02:53:31 PM »

So, we know that market size can go up, and there's a hard lock to prevent it going down. But is there a way for modders to cause a reduction in market size? For instance, if there was a custom event like an Imperial Siege, or a Dickerson Pirate Raid, or a Templar Crusade, or if some lunatic grabbed a TITAN and dropped it on a market.

FooF

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Re: Population Growth
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2017, 06:37:13 PM »

So, we know that market size can go up, and there's a hard lock to prevent it going down. But is there a way for modders to cause a reduction in market size? For instance, if there was a custom event like an Imperial Siege, or a Dickerson Pirate Raid, or a Templar Crusade, or if some lunatic grabbed a TITAN and dropped it on a market.

The blog post implies that progress toward growth can be negative/lost but actual market size cannot. With the scale being logarithmic, I understand that to lose market size would be equivalent to losing 90% of a given population (more like an extinction-level event), but hey, it's a brutal Sector out there. Blockades/sieges, WMD attacks, espionage that results in mass riots and civil war, etc. would be interesting. Size 4 markets dropping to Size 3 doesn't sound like too much of a stretch though I admit size 8 dropping to size 7 would result in a great disturbance in the Force.
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Megas

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Re: Population Growth
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2017, 07:22:42 PM »

Player docks at the take-out of his modestly-sized McStation with his endgame fleet.  Player yells "I need 3,000 or so crew for my death fleet, plus a side order of coke and fries, now!"  McStation has a few hundred people or so left after player leaves for his latest raid on the dungeon world.
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Draba

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Re: Population Growth
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2017, 01:44:01 AM »

Would making markets being able to shrink cause too much volatility? I think if it needed a really long time in bad conditions it'd be an interesting dynamic.
Since smaller markets have naturally better growth modifiers removing more than 1-2 pips from core worlds could be very hard anyway.
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