Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7]

Author Topic: All missiles should cost 0 ordnance points.  (Read 24409 times)

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12117
    • View Profile
Re: All missiles should cost 0 ordnance points.
« Reply #90 on: December 14, 2017, 07:44:59 AM »

...or are tooling around in a modded ship that can stack Medium Kinetic and Large Energy...
...or if the enemy is the battlestation, with its Targeting Supercomputer and other weapons.
Logged

xenoargh

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 5078
  • naively breaking things!
    • View Profile
Re: All missiles should cost 0 ordnance points.
« Reply #91 on: December 14, 2017, 10:20:13 AM »

Yeah, but that's a boss ship.  It and the Paragon go under "special circumstances" IMO; if people think the HIL's OK because it's capable of killing your AI ship before it's bright enough to raise shields, well.
Logged
Please check out my SS projects :)
Xeno's Mod Pack

TaLaR

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2794
    • View Profile
Re: All missiles should cost 0 ordnance points.
« Reply #92 on: December 14, 2017, 08:40:03 PM »

Oh, and that change to the way burst-damage was calculated meant that the Tachyon Lance gained enough bite to justify itself, sometimes.  I get that people think it's OK on a Paragon, but everything's good on a Paragon and usually the HIL's a better choice if you're not going Plasma Cannon.
So far, HIL is poor-man's damage half of Tachyon Lance.  HIL is what gets used if player has not found enough Tachyon Lance (and Tachyon Lance is very rare).

HIL can be quite ok, as long as you use it correctly. That is exploit the fact that enemies raise their shields from point that is exactly on line between center of their ship and your ships. So you can fire few seconds into their side, whenever they drop/re-raise shield. And AI tends to re-raise often even when not really threatened by flux levels (Paragon included).

Then again, TL can exploit same flaw in AI behavior.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 08:41:46 PM by TaLaR »
Logged

xenoargh

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 5078
  • naively breaking things!
    • View Profile
Re: All missiles should cost 0 ordnance points.
« Reply #93 on: December 14, 2017, 09:46:41 PM »

Yeah, that's a thing, or pushing past Omnis when fighters / missiles cause the AI to swivel it.

Still, I'd rather just be putting more Hard Flux onto them most of the time.
Logged
Please check out my SS projects :)
Xeno's Mod Pack

intrinsic_parity

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3071
    • View Profile
Re: All missiles should cost 0 ordnance points.
« Reply #94 on: December 15, 2017, 01:21:35 AM »

Paragon with 4x Tach Lance is imo by far the strongest load out . 4x tach lance can 1 shot destroyers and frigates a lot of the time, especially in a fleet context. Instantly eliminating an enemy ship from almost  2000 range (with advanced optics) is uniquely powerful. The massive range also helps make up for low mobility and speed. I would take 4x TL paragon over anything in the vanilla game. The burst damage nature of the weapons also compensates for the soft flux somewhat, since you can still easily overload enemies with burst damage before flux dissipation can kick in. In my experience, 4x TL generates so much soft flux that the next time you fire, most of it will not have been dissipated yet. Burst soft flux is very different from low level sustained soft flux like graviton beam.
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12117
    • View Profile
Re: All missiles should cost 0 ordnance points.
« Reply #95 on: December 15, 2017, 05:29:16 AM »

Quote
Then again, TL can exploit same flaw in AI behavior.
Tachyon Lance is much better at exploiting AI flaws than HIL, thanks to burst damage and near-hitscan.

HIL is useful enough, but there is never a time when Tachyon Lance is not a better option than HIL.  The only reason why I use HIL is because I have not found (enough) Tachyon Lances to use.

This is a problem with Odyssey being only viable as Tachyon Lance sniper (or Plasma Cannon and Claws combo)... the weapon is too rare, and if I find Lances, they are going on Paragon instead (which can use them for far more destructive results).  Odyssey with HILs instead of Tachyon Lances are awful - completely reliant on fighters for hard flux, and if they die, HIL Odyssey is completely impotent.

Paragon with 4x Tach Lance is imo by far the strongest load out . 4x tach lance can 1 shot destroyers and frigates a lot of the time, especially in a fleet context. Instantly eliminating an enemy ship from almost  2000 range (with advanced optics) is uniquely powerful. The massive range also helps make up for low mobility and speed. I would take 4x TL paragon over anything in the vanilla game. The burst damage nature of the weapons also compensates for the soft flux somewhat, since you can still easily overload enemies with burst damage before flux dissipation can kick in. In my experience, 4x TL generates so much soft flux that the next time you fire, most of it will not have been dissipated yet. Burst soft flux is very different from low level sustained soft flux like graviton beam.
That is my flagship of choice, and quad lances are backed by 2x HVD for hard flux.  Those HVDs are great against nearly dead ships that will never lower shields while fighting (meaning no AI cheese), and those HVDs will slowly but surely put hard flux on shield, then Tachyon Lance will pierce and fry the enemy behind the shields.  Paragon's only weakness is frigate swarm, because enemy frigates will avoid Paragon until they can swarm and kill it fast.

That said, Paragon is not necessarily the most powerful ship.  That might go to Astral.  However, that might require a dedicated carrier skill set to get the most out of Astral, while Paragon can be used by just about anyone.  Plus, if I use and deploy a fleet that includes carriers, I cannot use a backline unit due to AI's fighters escorting me instead of attacking enemies.  Paragon is great for wading in and killing stuff.
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12117
    • View Profile
Re: All missiles should cost 0 ordnance points.
« Reply #96 on: January 06, 2018, 09:21:28 AM »

It occurred to me that once the loot bug is fixed, that might enable the player to chain-deploy ships to missile-spam, retreat, repeat until all ships have retreated, then full retreat to end the battle.  Then, when the enemy still wants to fight, player does it again for round two, and maybe round three.  In effect, this is like the Gryphon's original Missile Nanoforge system (that drained CR), except the refill occurs between rounds instead of instantly mid-round.
Logged

Wapno

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 215
    • View Profile
Re: All missiles should cost 0 ordnance points.
« Reply #97 on: January 06, 2018, 11:48:42 AM »

It occurred to me that once the loot bug is fixed, that might enable the player to chain-deploy ships to missile-spam, retreat, repeat until all ships have retreated, then full retreat to end the battle.  Then, when the enemy still wants to fight, player does it again for round two, and maybe round three.  In effect, this is like the Gryphon's original Missile Nanoforge system (that drained CR), except the refill occurs between rounds instead of instantly mid-round.
One more reason why missile balance should be revamped.
Logged

Kirschbra

  • Lieutenant
  • **
  • Posts: 76
    • View Profile
Re: All missiles should cost 0 ordnance points.
« Reply #98 on: February 08, 2018, 05:31:36 PM »

WHAT!?! 0 ordinance are you mad?
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12117
    • View Profile
Re: All missiles should cost 0 ordnance points.
« Reply #99 on: February 09, 2018, 08:55:52 AM »

Today, I would think free missiles is not a bad idea, given that most are unsuitable for endurance fights players tend to get caught in within the campaign, while the regenerators are inferior to the Converted Hangar and fighters combo.

But once the loot bug gets fixed, free missiles would be unbalanced by perhaps enabling missile-spamming chain-flagship fleets.  That is, player deploys a flagship, fires "all the missiles" at enemies (to overcome defenses), kills a few ships, then retreats that ship.  Repeat with the rest of your fleet one ship at a time.  If that does not kill everyone, full retreat to end the round.  If enemy wants to fight round two, repeat the missile spam.  (If enemy runs, auto-resolve to get your free kills.

Currently, full retreating is punishing because player forfeits all loot, but not XP, from ships killed that round, even if player ultimately wins the encounter.  But that was said to be a bug, and will get fixed.  With loot bug fixed, a full retreat to take a timeout (to stop CR from decaying and/or reload missiles) becomes a viable strategy instead of a huge loot tax.

That would be an incentive for limited ammo weapons to regenerate, to discourage full retreat timeouts if that proves to be very effective.
Logged

Wapno

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 215
    • View Profile
Re: All missiles should cost 0 ordnance points.
« Reply #100 on: April 03, 2018, 09:29:25 AM »

Today, I would think free missiles is not a bad idea, given that most are unsuitable for endurance fights players tend to get caught in within the campaign, while the regenerators are inferior to the Converted Hangar and fighters combo.

But once the loot bug gets fixed, free missiles would be unbalanced by perhaps enabling missile-spamming chain-flagship fleets.  That is, player deploys a flagship, fires "all the missiles" at enemies (to overcome defenses), kills a few ships, then retreats that ship.  Repeat with the rest of your fleet one ship at a time.  If that does not kill everyone, full retreat to end the round.  If enemy wants to fight round two, repeat the missile spam.  (If enemy runs, auto-resolve to get your free kills.

Currently, full retreating is punishing because player forfeits all loot, but not XP, from ships killed that round, even if player ultimately wins the encounter.  But that was said to be a bug, and will get fixed.  With loot bug fixed, a full retreat to take a timeout (to stop CR from decaying and/or reload missiles) becomes a viable strategy instead of a huge loot tax.

That would be an incentive for limited ammo weapons to regenerate, to discourage full retreat timeouts if that proves to be very effective.
With exception of Frigates, and maybe some weaker Destroyers, such "missile-spam" is not going to rack up too many kills, even if it's a Gryphon that's firing them. Fleets with at least decent point defense, and/or high tech fleets with good shields might not even get hit in the hull once. All the while the only thing you achieve is wasting your CR by deploying ships.

I guess this tactic might have potential with carefully mowing down shields on a single target with use of kinetic guns, and some very precise maneuvering, but then conventional combat might be more effective and fun and less tedious to employ.
Logged

TJJ

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1905
    • View Profile
Re: All missiles should cost 0 ordnance points.
« Reply #101 on: April 03, 2018, 10:23:39 AM »

I can't remember if I've already commented in this thread... and if I have, what point I made, so forgive me if this is a repeat.

0 OP missiles:
  • Constitute power creep
  • Reduces decision making in ship loadouts; eliminating the decision "Do I fill the missile slots?"
  • Reduces player agency in combat (Cheaper missiles -> more ships with missiles -> more instant death to missile spam -> greater player frustration.)
  • Difficult to balance; flux is the universal in-combat balancing factor, anything that bypasses it (missiles & fighters) is much harder to balance.

While it's true that missiles offer poor OP value compared to fighters, making missiles free is not the solution.
Bring fighters back in line with everything else, then re-evaluate missiles.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 10:27:59 AM by TJJ »
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12117
    • View Profile
Re: All missiles should cost 0 ordnance points.
« Reply #102 on: April 03, 2018, 10:43:39 AM »

Fighters are mostly fine where they are, at least for unskilled ships.  If anything, some wings are too expensive.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7]