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Author Topic: All missiles should cost 0 ordnance points.  (Read 24410 times)

Serenitis

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Re: All missiles should cost 0 ordnance points.
« Reply #45 on: November 24, 2017, 02:19:41 AM »

I think that carriers with unlimited fighters being currently brokenly powerful shows that regenerating missiles would be an even worse idea.
Missiles are far easier to shoot down than fighters.
I don't think this is an issue with the game mechanics, but rather an issue with not being sold on the idea. Yet.

I actually had a bright idea to put the missile strategy to use by including some support ships in my fleet - those supports putting heavy emphasis on missile use. That strategy however did nothing but cost me money, as those missile ships were usually the first to die, usually by rushing at the enemy for no apparent reason and promptly getting torn to shreds, all the while my gun-only units and carriers were delivering a carnage.
All you need to "fix" this is 1 timid officer and 1 CP per battle.
Set up your missile ships for long range fire support, so Pilums (or any other suitable missile) some PD, along with UI and ECCM.
Assign your timid guy to the biggest/slowest missile ship you have. And in every battle you deploy your missile boats into, bandbox/shift-select all the uncaptained ones and tell them escort your timid. They will then form a little ball which hovers around the edge of the battle puking out a constant stream of explosives which is also well defended enough to deter most threats that challenge it.
Works incredibly well with a group of Vigilances.

Pilums suck too much
A single Pilum is laughable. A trio is annoying. Half a dozen is threatening. Twenty is terrifying.
They are like the missile equivalent of beams. The more of them you have, the better they become. Once you get to the point where you can field 10+ launchers, you can create a tide of pain that slowly creeps accross the battlespace punishing anyone who dares cross that line.
Granted, the missiles themselves could stand to be a little faster since some cruisers can outrun them. But otherwise they're fine.
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Wapno

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Re: All missiles should cost 0 ordnance points.
« Reply #46 on: November 24, 2017, 03:01:32 AM »

All you need to "fix" this is 1 timid officer and 1 CP per battle.
Set up your missile ships for long range fire support, so Pilums (or any other suitable missile) some PD, along with UI and ECCM.
Assign your timid guy to the biggest/slowest missile ship you have. And in every battle you deploy your missile boats into, bandbox/shift-select all the uncaptained ones and tell them escort your timid. They will then form a little ball which hovers around the edge of the battle puking out a constant stream of explosives which is also well defended enough to deter most threats that challenge it.
Works incredibly well with a group of Vigilances.
Look, all of that effort just to make a certain weapon useful. And that's just one missile type - I don't think it would work with anything else than pilums, and maybe harpoons. Plus, that ball of Vigilances is still going to cost me deployment points which I could spend on some brawlers or close support ships and their effectiveness might be questionable, depending on how much PD the other side has.

A single Pilum is laughable. A trio is annoying. Half a dozen is threatening. Twenty is terrifying.
They are like the missile equivalent of beams. The more of them you have, the better they become. Once you get to the point where you can field 10+ launchers, you can create a tide of pain that slowly creeps accross the battlespace punishing anyone who dares cross that line.
Granted, the missiles themselves could stand to be a little faster since some cruisers can outrun them. But otherwise they're fine.
I disagree. Any ship with proper PD is instantly immune to Pilums, no matter how many you throw at it. I've actually did a test - using Console Commands mod, I gave my ship infinite ammo and instant reload, meaning it could puke hundreds of Pilums in an instant. I spawned a single enemy cruiser and kept spamming missiles at it. And as it turns out, even that wave of hundreds of Pilums (I've made sure to spread them around so as they are not packed together) hits a brick wall as soon as there's at least one ship with Flak cannons. Beam PD is less effective, but will still stop Pilums dead.

Now, such "lab tests" aren't usually a reliable source, but I'm observing similar results in the actual battle. Sure, once in a blue moon AI will turn its unshielded back at the incoming missiles and ignore them, but AI's stupidity is not something I'd like to rely on in a fight. At the very least, Pilum might have been at least remotely useful due to its regenerating ammo, but the weapon is so anemic that it almost doesn't matter. I don't know how many Pilum ships am I supposed to deploy for that tactic to actually work, half my fleet? In that case I prefer to deploy much more reliable brawlers and hit the targets directly.
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SafariJohn

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Re: All missiles should cost 0 ordnance points.
« Reply #47 on: November 24, 2017, 08:39:05 AM »

If you're tired of vanilla Pilums give my Pilum Rebalance minimod a try.
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Igncom1

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Re: All missiles should cost 0 ordnance points.
« Reply #48 on: November 24, 2017, 08:39:51 AM »

To be fair, yeah if it's just the Pilums you are firing, then that whole cruisers flux can go to shooting them down. Mass Pilums stack very well over the top of a fleet, much in the same way that bombers stack well over one.

If you aren't using your medium missile slots for anything else, then Pilums should do fine. 10 flux vents/caps fine per slot? Harder to say.
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Algro

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Re: All missiles should cost 0 ordnance points.
« Reply #49 on: November 25, 2017, 12:01:04 AM »

Just some thoughts:

Missiles are now good at:

-Burst damage
-No flux cost
-guidance
-Great punishers

But are bad at

-Sustainability
-Bad OP cost/missile utility
-Extremely un-competitive against fighters (Limited/ Unlimited)
-Can be destroyed easily by PD

So the core problem here is that:
1) Their usage is replaced/Dominated by fighters
2) The OP cost is un-competitive compared with other weapons

So I think these are some of the best ways to make missiles great again:

-Make fighter missiles completely different to Ship missiles
    Either
1) Make ship based missiles more punishing, faster/more hp and longer range. (This makes sense in real life when you compare torpedo bombers and torpedo boats where boats have a much larger payload and higher quality guidance for every missile)
2) All bombers will not have guided missiles for they are the guidance system (No guidance, 'longer drop distance' with faster and weaker missiles)
3) Make ship based missiles have more dangerous properties (eg. Damage to hull and Armour on hit, Debuff armor on hit, Poison like effect, Slowing properties, Force shields to stay open, Make enemy shields less efficient, one time drones that heal the hull/ armor...)
4) All ship based missiles have a reload time that costs flux to materialize the missiles, so they become a sustainable option (In practice, it would be sort of a burst weapon that cost flux after shooting)

-Make refitting bombers more costly
1) New skill tree dedicated to bomb reload speed (Also known as a debuff)
2) Make the carriers much more slower/ less maneuverable and make the bombing run longer (Such is the case in real life)

Generally missiles have to be a moving projectile that can be shot down and cost no flux to operate. These all fit the idea.

P.S. A Locus Apogee is a good Apogee

« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 11:41:15 PM by Algro »
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Serenitis

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Re: All missiles should cost 0 ordnance points.
« Reply #50 on: November 25, 2017, 04:45:37 AM »

Look, all of that effort just to make a certain weapon useful. And that's just one missile type - I don't think it would work with anything else than pilums, and maybe harpoons. Plus, that ball of Vigilances is still going to cost me deployment points which I could spend on some brawlers or close support ships and their effectiveness might be questionable, depending on how much PD the other side has.
And?
It is merely a workaround using the game's mechanics that allows you to use multiple missile ships you want to keep out of harms way while using only a single timid officer. Because you might not have access to more than one, you might not have room for more than one, you might not want more than one.
You don't don't have to use it. You don't even have to agree with it. It still works just fine.

I disagree. Any ship with proper PD is instantly immune to Pilums, no matter how many you throw at it. I've actually did a test - using Console Commands mod, I gave my ship infinite ammo and instant reload, meaning it could puke hundreds of Pilums in an instant. I spawned a single enemy cruiser and kept spamming missiles at it. And as it turns out, even that wave of hundreds of Pilums (I've made sure to spread them around so as they are not packed together) hits a brick wall as soon as there's at least one ship with Flak cannons. Beam PD is less effective, but will still stop Pilums dead.

Now, such "lab tests" aren't usually a reliable source, but I'm observing similar results in the actual battle. Sure, once in a blue moon AI will turn its unshielded back at the incoming missiles and ignore them, but AI's stupidity is not something I'd like to rely on in a fight. At the very least, Pilum might have been at least remotely useful due to its regenerating ammo, but the weapon is so anemic that it almost doesn't matter. I don't know how many Pilum ships am I supposed to deploy for that tactic to actually work, half my fleet? In that case I prefer to deploy much more reliable brawlers and hit the targets directly.
Look at all that effort you've gone to, and yet you are still wrong. All the lab tests in the world won't prove a thing.
The only valid test is battle, and a carpet of missiles is an amazing thing. It's not just about hitting a target, it's about pressure, distraction, and denial of mobility. It doesn't matter if that cruiser shoots down all the Pilums because if it's doing that its not shooting down anything else. And while its doing that its constantly trying to move out of the way, which means it gets trapped between the missiles it doesn't want to be near and the ships which are closing in around it. And then it dies because it can't defend in multiple directions simultaneously.
You don't have to like them. But that doesn't mean they are useless.

I think we've derailed this thread enough now.

So the core problem here is that:
1) Their usage is replaced/Dominated by fighters
2) The OP cost is un-competitive compared with other weapons
3) They are incredibly unforgiving of mistakes
4) Limited ammo = wasted OP

4 is the biggie. Remember when ballistics had limited ammo, and everyone went to enormous lengths to use only energy equppied ships wherever possible because running out of ammo mid-fight is really as far from fun as you can get?
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Megas

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Re: All missiles should cost 0 ordnance points.
« Reply #51 on: November 25, 2017, 05:27:00 AM »

Is Pilum spam still viable?  Since 0.8, just about anything cuts through Pilums like butter.  They used to be much tougher to stop.  Before 0.8, beams were mostly ineffective against Pilums, and it was easier to ships without flak to shield-tank some Pilums, vent, and repeat.  Today, beams cut Pilums down fast.

Carpet of missiles is only amazing if some of them actually hit and hurt or kill things.  Pilums did that in previous versions, but they were tougher to kill and faster (with old Missile Specialization) back then.  Even then, they had trouble hitting.  From the sounds of Wapno's test, it seems like Pilums are too easy to defend against compared to Pilums before.

Quote
4 is the biggie. Remember when ballistics had limited ammo, and everyone went to enormous lengths to use only energy equppied ships wherever possible because running out of ammo mid-fight is really as far from fun as you can get?
That was me.  Ever since ballistics became unlimited, I use less high-tech ships and mostly low-tech and midline.  Also, limited ballistics meant you can shield-tank and kite ballistic ships like Onslaught until they run out of ammo if you cannot beat it any other way.

It would be nice if energy weapons in general had some advantage.  Unlimited ammo used to be it, but not anymore.  Aside from few beams, I avoid them like the plague if the ship can use ballistics instead.

Against some missiles, especially MIRVs, sometimes Sabots, it makes sense to make the enemy waste them first, then fight when they are out.
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Linnis

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Re: All missiles should cost 0 ordnance points.
« Reply #52 on: November 25, 2017, 12:47:13 PM »

Beams simply do too little damage / op / slot. The new tac lance is and phase beam are great directions to take em. And yes, pilums are the weakest missiles right now, because they are basically guided mines at this point.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2017, 12:48:47 PM by Linnis »
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Algro

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Re: All missiles should cost 0 ordnance points.
« Reply #53 on: November 25, 2017, 01:04:34 PM »

Beams like Phase lance/beam are indeed a nice addition, but they do lack range, maybe too much to be useful on direct combat on larger ships. It would be nice to have a longer range (1200) beam weapon that isn't point to point accurate and have 1/1 damage to flux ratio.

And like I said before, missiles on ships need to be differentiated to missiles on bombers. If 18 OP for 3 bombers that shoot the same payload as a small missile rack that costs 4-5 OP is kind of unfair. Four bombing runs and they would essentially have used up their OP cost so every new bomber payload is extra/free fire power, and this doesn't even put into factor that bombers have better range (1000 bomber range + 1000 missile range) and other advantages carriers have. This needs to be fixed.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2017, 01:13:39 PM by Algro »
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Megas

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Re: All missiles should cost 0 ordnance points.
« Reply #54 on: November 25, 2017, 04:01:14 PM »

Quote
Beams like Phase lance/beam are indeed a nice addition, but they do lack range, maybe too much to be useful on direct combat on larger ships. It would be nice to have a longer range (1200) beam weapon that isn't point to point accurate and have 1/1 damage to flux ratio.
Phase Lance is mostly junk (600 range and no hard flux), since Pulse Laser is better for general assault or blasters for burst damage.  Phase Lance is good only for two cases:  1) Ships that can combine 800+ range kinetics with Phase Lance plus Advanced Optics for 800 range and 2) Ships with Safety Override that cannot support Pulse Laser comfortably.  Phase Lance needs more range (and/or much better flux efficiency than hard flux weapons).  It used to have 700 range when it was the continuous Phase Beam.
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Linnis

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Re: All missiles should cost 0 ordnance points.
« Reply #55 on: November 25, 2017, 06:02:56 PM »

Phase lance is also good for overloading when used on frigates or even destroyers. A Phase lance wolf is easy mode in early game while a pulse laser wolf is meh at best. Even late game a phase lance support hit and run style for frigates and destroyers against larger targets. Then when used on cruisers or larger ships they gain a range bonus and can overload small targets in similar ranges if they used normal kinetics. 

But for beams that affect missiles, yes they are bad. Watching LRPD or PD laser trying to shoot any missile is painful. Constant re-firing, and overall not doing enough damage.

Buff pd, buff missiles. Missiles need to see more general use on ships aside from early game where you only fight less then 4 ships or cheeky strats.
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Serenitis

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Re: All missiles should cost 0 ordnance points.
« Reply #56 on: November 27, 2017, 12:00:35 PM »

Is Pilum spam still viable? 
Not as good as they used to be, but still useful. Far more dependant on having numbers than previously as well - you need 6+ launchers deployed to see the effect now. It used to be 3-4. Quite a disincentive with a limited fleet really.
Seems to have changed roles from a carpet of making everything dead, to a carpet of making everything distracted and easier to kill.
If you're going to use them you need to go all in, otherwise you'll just be incredibly disappointed.

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Against some missiles, especially MIRVs, sometimes Sabots, it makes sense to make the enemy waste them first, then fight when they are out.
This meta thing is something I loathe so much.
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Ranakastrasz

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Re: All missiles should cost 0 ordnance points.
« Reply #57 on: November 29, 2017, 05:17:30 PM »


Against some missiles, especially MIRVs, sometimes Sabots, it makes sense to make the enemy waste them first, then fight when they are out.
This meta thing is something I loathe so much.

That sounds more like sensible tactics. Wait till the enemy spends their ammunition, and survive and/or blunt their alphastrike, then take a more aggressive posture. You play cautious around them until their threat level decreases.

Generally I do this myself, although enemies tend to keep the nastier missiles in reserve until they really matter, and things like salamanders never ever stop.


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Delta7

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Re: All missiles should cost 0 ordnance points.
« Reply #58 on: December 06, 2017, 02:38:27 AM »

Using missiles at a critical time in an engagement can turn the tide of that engagement, quickly eliminating that enemy threat and freeing up the attacking ship to go assist allied ships in their own engagements, starting a domino effect. Burst damage is a powerful tool in starsector, and one of the greatest sources of it (missiles/ torpedoes) are limited in ammunition to balance out their incredible power.
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Linnis

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Re: All missiles should cost 0 ordnance points.
« Reply #59 on: December 06, 2017, 05:36:46 PM »

Using missiles at a critical time in an engagement can turn the tide of that engagement, quickly eliminating that enemy threat and freeing up the attacking ship to go assist allied ships in their own engagements, starting a domino effect. Burst damage is a powerful tool in starsector, and one of the greatest sources of it (missiles/ torpedoes) are limited in ammunition to balance out their incredible power.

Agreed, but the most reliable burst damage is close rage builds like machine gun hammerhead, not missiles ships.
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