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Author Topic: New player experience  (Read 7617 times)

Aven

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New player experience
« on: November 07, 2017, 07:21:54 PM »

Hey guys I am new here, and I would like to share my experience in approximately the first 20 hours of gameplay.

The idea behind this game is really amazing.  There are a lot of little things that are very well done.  The universe feels alive and there is a lot to see and do.  There are missions that take you places and abilities that allow you to take many pit stops along the way that can greatly reward you.  The level of micro-management is just enough to give it that complex, tactical platformer feel, but doesn't cut into the flow of the game itself.  You never spend too much time in a station staring at spreadsheets but what is there is enough to make you feel like you are armed with options.  You can customize ships to your liking.  You can build your fleet how you want.  You can put your ships into specialized support roles, such as long range, short range, medium range, and other roles that offer diverse strategies in battle.

There is much more than just the combat though.  There's a whole economy to tackle.  There are deployable starbases in the works.  This game is still in beta so who knows.  We could see automated transport networks that supply stations and sell their goods.  There could be player owned shipyards and manufacturing facilities.  Starsector has a lot to offer, and for the most part, executes these things very well.

But no game is devoid of gripes.  There are strengths and weaknesses to every game.  My hope is that this is taken as constructive criticism.  Because there is a couple of majour fundamental flaws here that made me put the game down for nearly 2 months after just 6 hours of gameplay.

The main motive that drives a gamer to continue playing a game is the sense of progression through the game.  If a game doesn't capture you and make you feel like you are getting more powerful, you are getting those things that make life easy, like you are getting the tools you need to progress, then it's not worth playing.  If you feel like it is crushing you at every step, and makes it feel utterly impossible to play, then a gamer will put it down and move on to something else.  In a game, the thing that drives progression is for the player to make decisions based on available choices that offer a reward for the risk taken.  When a player does something in a game, it's because he feels he can claim the reward without loosing more than the reward is worth.  This is the single biggest reason to play a game.  Everything else is flexible, but this one aspect is hard coded.  So with this in mind, let's look at Starsector.

For starts, your default difficulty setting is normal (for veteran players).  Literally.  Why is this difficulty "normal" if it's for veterans.  Why not make "easy" the normal difficulty, and "normal" a hard difficulty.  When you first jump into the game, on normal difficulty mind you, you are hand held until it's time to take out the pirates.  Well that won't work, because they will annihilate your fleet.  So you need to bolster your fleet.  You can only do so much scavaging because it costs you crew, fuel and supplies to do that.  You can't take on any pirates because they are all rolling around in fleets that will destroy yours.  So what do you do?  You hit this wall and you either get destroyed or you can't get equipment to get ahead.  Well for me, what I did, was shelved Starsector and went on to something else.

After about a month and a half of thinking I should try again, I finally did and put it on easy difficulty.  You know, the one for newbs.  Ok, I thought this would be a little easier.  And yes I have to admit, it was.  But then I hit another kind of wall.  Combat in this game is horribly unrewarding unless they have bounties.  When you win a battle you might get a handful of supplies and/or a derelict ship.  The reward from combat does not outweigh the risk.  And when they do have bounties, the only ones I can take on are the very minor ones, like $1500 bounty.  The only other ones available are like $50-60,000.  So they are rolling around in death fleets.  No, combat is NOT a way to progress in this game.  Combat is there if it's needed, but most of the time you will be loosing your resources, your troops, your ships, and god knows what else.  Usually as soon as I get in combat I reload the game and try again.

But even worse than the unlucrative combat, are the scanning missions, in which you have to travel a REDICULOUSLY long way, in order to reach the system.  I've now spent tens of thousands of credits worth of supplies getting there.  Now I have to hope to God I don't get engaged in combat, and then I have to go there and spend a bunch of rescources doing these scans which costs even more money, and then I need to salvage which admittedly gives *some* of it back, but it hardly compensates for the hundreds of units of fuel you have to spend to get to another star system *and back*.

See the 3 ways the game works against you is this:

Fuel
Supplies
Crew

Now the thing that makes these required resources bad is not the resources themselves, not the concept of what they do, but rather, in the execution of how they integrate with the game.  For example, why is there no skill on the commander that makes my fleet more fuel efficient and less demanding on supplies?  Why are there no mining skills in which my crew nearly become immune to loss on difficult scavenging operations?  Where are the things in the game that reduce the requirements of my fleet as my ship count goes up?  Where are my social interaction skills that give me more of a certain type of mission, and make those missions more rewarding for the player?  This is what I'm talking about here.  I do have suggestions, which I will be posting in the suggestion forums, and they are minor tweaks at that.  A person could almost build a mod, but this isn't just personal taste here.  The game at its core needs to be fixed a little bit.  This game is grueling to play and I am by no means a casual gamer.

I am toughing through it, but basically right now, I have a small fleet.  My big ships are parked because I cannot afford to run a fleet with large ships.  And it sucks, because my fuel and cargo capacity is much smaller and I don't have the fuel to travel way out and do something, then come back again.  So I have to skip past most scan missions.  Also, I feel forced to go down the industry line, because combat is so brutally unprofitable, it's not even worth doing.  Avoiding most fights is the only way to keep the few hundred credits you've earned after you pretty much broke even just doing a mission.

Pros:
- For a top down, the graphics are awesome.  The way planets move around stars, asteroid belts, lightning storms in nebula's, it all adds up to a pretty amazing experience
- The music is well chosen and well done.  It doesn't play the same thing over and over and it doesn't intrude on gameplay
- The tactical feel of this game is top notch.  Plenty of options, combat is fun
- The economy is deep and rich, and is only going to get better.  Trading is definitely a challenge, a good challenge.
- The way the ships move and how you control your fleet while out in space is engaging.  You actually have to make on-the-fly decisions on where your fleet is heading or you could end up loosing a LOT of resources flying through the wrong territory (read: nebula lightning storm)
- The line between hard fought and utterly impossible is a fine one in this game.  The developers have taken great care in ensuring the game is balanced

Cons:
-  A talent tree that forces you to waste 12 of 43 skill points on useless things, forcing players to build their character a certain way or they will loose the risk/reward battle
- The cost of resources is such that most mission payouts just barely cover the cost of flying out there.  And this is if everything goes according to plan and you don't get attacked.  The larger the mission reward, the farther the mission is from the station you are parked at.  This will require a much larger fleet to hold the resources but the larger fleet will also burn double to triple the resources.
- No skills or talents that revolve around pricing of goods, fuel efficiency, mission payouts, etc.
- Constantly feeling like you are just breaking even and now you need resources for the little bit of flying around you do while checking for a mission that's close enough to actually run

Overall I would rate Starsector at a 7.5.  And that's a solid review, coming from me :)

I will have my suggestions out soon.  Sorry for the long read, and thanks, eh!
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SafariJohn

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Re: New player experience
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2017, 08:27:33 PM »

A good read; didn't feel as long as it is. I agree with most of what you said.

A side note: there is a Leadership skill which reduces supply and fuel consumption.
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Linnis

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Re: New player experience
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2017, 09:23:36 PM »

Very much agree with what you said, also why this game should not be published just yet, after all we only get one change at first impressions before potential people who love the game will walk away.

Biggest problem right now is the both the fastest and most reliable way to make progress in this game is combat, either from bounties or scavenging, and getting combat to be reliable a player has to use certain ships in certain ways, picking certain fights and flying around the sector in a certain way to not get caught. That already takes so much game knowledge you would need it from getting to the endgame ten times over. Imagine if in Darksouls when you died not only you lose souls, but your level and equipment too, that would be too punishing. Also like Darksouls for a player who has beat the game a few times over they will most likely not die in a whole playthrough. The problem with the difficulty is game knowledge, not reaction time / calculating.

Right now the game is too hard on newbies, because losing in combat is game destroying. The next update with player building their own ships might help to move the progress from combat to more exploration / industry.

Scavenging should honestly yield more results then right now, where if you leveled up the corresponding skills, you just break even with operating costs, and selling scavenged ships is not worth the supplies to repair them.

« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 09:27:17 PM by Linnis »
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Alex

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Re: New player experience
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2017, 09:38:52 PM »

Welcome to the forum, and thank you for your feedback :)

Hmm. So fundamentally, this seems like your concern is about difficulty. Whether skills reduce supply consumption or increase the power you get for the same supply cost (by improving the ships, your ability to put officers on them, etc) is more or less the same, isn't it? You get progression and so on either way.

As far as bounties/combat - it's definitely a viable way to play. The main things are to not overdeploy (so that you don't have to pay for ships you didn't really need to win) and just in general to be more comfortable with the combat. It's entirely possible to start with the systemwide bounties, get a few more ships, take on the lower-level named bounties, and build up your fleet and progress from there. The 1500 credits are for a frigate, btw, so if you take out several ships it adds up.

I'd actually recommend investing in combat skills, for a newer player - they'll make fighting a lot more cost-efficient, especially in the beginning, even if fleet-wide skills get a bit more efficient later on. But you can pretty much do anything in the game without skills. I'd also recommend investing in some carriers to support your flagship - they're quite powerful in this release, and the fighters are a great distraction, making your job easier.

For scanning missions - one thing that I'm not sure if you're aware of or not is you can buy tankers, i.e. ships that have a higher fuel capacity. That makes it easy to carry enough fuel to get there and back, although generally "analyze" missions are in systems with lots of other stuff to find, so you're likely to resupply (via scavenging) once you get there.

(There's also a Navigation skill in technology, which gives you a fuel use reduction at level 2.)


I definitely don't want to discount what you're saying, though. Difficulty is a subjective thing, and I'll note this down in the "still too difficult" column. Another aspect of it is rather than making it less difficult directly, to make it less difficult indirectly by making things more clear. It'd be interesting to know why combat + bounties isn't profitable for you, for example, and then use that knowledge to have the game do a better job of making these things clear.

On the bright side, the game is a lot more friendly to newer players in this release, so I'm glad you discovered it now rather than earlier :) Moving in the right direction, hopefully!


When you first jump into the game, on normal difficulty mind you, you are hand held until it's time to take out the pirates.  Well that won't work, because they will annihilate your fleet.  So you need to bolster your fleet.

(I think this is actually a pretty good measuring stick for where you're at in terms of having a handle on the game's combat systems. On "normal" difficulty, once you recover and outfit all the ships you can from the ship graveyard around Tetra, you have enough (more than enough, really) to take on the rogue miners guarding the jump-point. If you can't, then that means you've got more basics to figure out.

Which is totally understandable; there's a lot to it. It just happens to be a good way to gauge where you're at - if you have trouble with that fight, you'll also likely have trouble making money with bounties. Stepping back from the campaign, the stand-alone missions can also offer a good way to get a handle on tactics.

Edit: to expand a bit, that fight is intentionally a jump in difficulty from the other fights in the tutorial. It offers a more "real" test, and once the player passes it, they're more ready to take on the game beyond the jump-point.)

Again, thank you for your feedback! I will definitely keep it in mind.


Biggest problem right now is the both the fastest and most reliable way to make progress in this game is combat, either from bounties or scavenging, and getting combat to be reliable a player has to use certain ships in certain ways, picking certain fights and flying around the sector in a certain way to not get caught. That already takes so much game knowledge you would need it from getting to the endgame ten times over. Imagine if in Darksouls when you died not only you lose souls, but your level and equipment too, that would be too punishing. Also like Darksouls for a player who has beat the game a few times over they will most likely not die in a whole playthrough. The problem with the difficulty is game knowledge, not reaction time / calculating.

Right now the game is too hard on newbies, because losing in combat is game destroying.

I get what you're saying, but: F9? I'd totally expect new players to save/load all the time. It's a nice challenge not to, but it seems a bit unreasonable not to take advantage of this when one is trying to figure out the basics of the game. For example, going back to the rogue miners jump-point fight, I'd expect a new player to save before the right (iirc the tutorial even tells you to do it) and then give it as many tries as necessary to win/figure things out/etc.

I'm definitely not saying that the difficulty level is perfect etc, my point is only that one has to consider it in light of save/loading being there, and the worst-case scenario of losing the entire fleet, or even just most of it, can probably be ignored for the purpose of that discussion.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 09:42:09 PM by Alex »
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Linnis

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Re: New player experience
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2017, 11:08:27 PM »

About the Quicksave thing, for us old gamers it was normal to "save scum" as it was part of the game. Kids these days huh?! I do agree the difficulty makes the game fun for me, but it could make it not fun for alot. Some games choose to cater to one. Some to the other.

I think the best way is to try for both, end game should be ruthlessly difficult, while early game should be easy. OR!!!!!! Have multiple play styles supported. It is hard to find an example and one of the games I can think of is the old Ragnarok Online.

The base game is mind numbingly easy, to operate one character for normal players you literally need to read a guide, or listen to advice, press 2 or 3 buttons and you can reach end-game. Where you kill monsters without being touched, and if you do, its no problem. Because grinding weak mobs offer real end-game currency. But if one wanted to get money fast, they need to party up, think and plan about battlestrats, because the real end game mobs can attack one at a time or up to 7-10. Where the most tanky characters will die in two hit, where mobs run across your whole visible view in about 1 second, or have map wide range, where if people don't perform perfectly their tasks the whole party can literally go from perfectly fine, to everyone's dead in less than 2 seconds. A server usually at peak times had 1000-1500 people, were only about 10-20 people at a time were able to take on those kind of content. That kind of game design thinking has somehow gotten lost in time, even though it made people like 9 year old girls and 35 year old hardcore gamers play the same game.
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HELMUT

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Re: New player experience
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2017, 05:25:56 AM »

As Linnis said, Starsector is more about game knowledge rather than skill. Unfortunately, it takes quite a bit of time to get that knowledge, and during that time, the game doesn't go easy on you.

I've been taking suggestions on the Discord recently to write a beginner guide, since you're not the first one to struggle with the game. Derelict analysis/Salvaging seems like the way to go for a first campaign, and unlike Alex, i would instead advice to take the "maintenance" skills that reduce fuel and supply consumption, since ressource managing seems to be the main cause of issues for beginners. Making a living out of bounty hunting is very profitable, but i personally consider it quite tricky for someone that don't know yet how the game works. But yeah, if you have more precise questions, there's always a bunch of people on the Discord willing to answer you :

http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=11488.0

Oh by the way Alex, while we're talking about the early game experience. Can i request a salvageable Dram derelict for the Tutorial graveyard for the next update? While writing the guide, i found that no matter what career a player wants to do, a Tanker is always needed, and buying one (with the fuel) can be unexpectedly expensive early on. I found out a few other little details here and there that could be improved too, but i'll write that in the suggestion forum instead.
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Alex

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Re: New player experience
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2017, 08:12:35 AM »

Oh by the way Alex, while we're talking about the early game experience. Can i request a salvageable Dram derelict for the Tutorial graveyard for the next update? While writing the guide, i found that no matter what career a player wants to do, a Tanker is always needed, and buying one (with the fuel) can be unexpectedly expensive early on. I found out a few other little details here and there that could be improved too, but i'll write that in the suggestion forum instead.

Hey, that's a good idea. Made a note. Looking forward to the other suggestions as well!
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SafariJohn

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Re: New player experience
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2017, 08:35:01 AM »

I'm not sure I've ever used the quicksave feature outside of the tutorial. The longer it takes to quicksave, the less I use it, and Starsector usually takes a long time to save.
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Alex

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Re: New player experience
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2017, 08:38:07 AM »

Hmm - correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you might be looking at it from a "playing with mods" perspective, where yeah, I can see that. But for a vanilla game, which is what you'd expect for a new player, I think it's more manageable. At least, I do it all the time when playtesting things and it doesn't feel like a bother.

(In general, though, I'd love to get the save time down. It's definitely on the high side.)
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Linnis

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Re: New player experience
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2017, 09:26:33 AM »

I'm not sure I've ever used the quicksave feature outside of the tutorial. The longer it takes to quicksave, the less I use it, and Starsector usually takes a long time to save.

Recently I moved starsector to an SSD and the save time went from like 20 seconds to 3 seconds. Though the SSD is slower than my normal harddrive at some other files transfers and programs.
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Aven

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Re: New player experience
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2017, 01:01:25 PM »

Hey guys thanks for reading through and for the replies :)  I want you all to know that I dialed down the difficulty and am doing several playthroughs.  On easy you are able to get out there and explore.  On normal I did manage to break through the blockade, but I was so done on resources by that point, I couldn't continue.

I think something this game could use is a modification to the tutorial explaining a bit more in detail regarding fuel consumption, and how adding ships consume more fuel.  I also didn't, and still don't, understand the effect of mothballing, and why my resource indicators go totally wonky when I have ships that are mothballed.  More specifically, what does it do?  I feel there are complex mechanics here that are lacking explanation.

I am pressing on though.  There is something about this game, like Dark Souls, but in space.  The brutality of the universe you are in, getting something done that is rewarding, makes you feel like you have reached a milestone.

As for the skills I took, in my first playthrough on normal, I went all combat.  Second was industry, but made the mistake of buying combat ships.  Now the third playthrough I'm going some industry with some other things that are mixed.  I hope to see how this works out.  I will be buying transport ships this time, and doing a lot more surveying this time around than last.  I went with the freighter/drone tender start and it's been profitable.  I'm focusing hard on getting surveying lvl 3.

Thanks for being unbiased in your replies.  It's refreshing to see a game community that is mature :)
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FooF

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Re: New player experience
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2017, 07:07:34 PM »

The tutorial does a good job with introducing most of the mechanics but alas, it would be a good idea to have some scripted tutorials for bounties, exploration, hyperspace, etc. (I say "alas" because I imagine it's a fair bit of work).

Perhaps after going to Corvus and checking in at Jangala, the Hegemony contact will give you 2-3 additional missions that introduce said paths. Perhaps the "exploration" mission nets you that coveted Dram that Helmut talks about (it appearing in the tutorial graveyard seems too much like a loot pinata at this point). Likewise, the bounty mission helps the player a bit by auto-spawning a Hegemony patrol near the pirate fleet in question so that you have allies, should you want/need them. A few extra tie-ins to the tutorial right off the bat would help.

I will say that the "knowledge is more important than skill" saying rang instantly true once I heard it. The end tutorial fight before stabilizing the jump point is a key example. The Venture is not difficult to kill, even in a Wolf, but a new player doesn't know that yet because they've never encountered one. All the new player sees is a Cruiser when the biggest ship you have is a destroyer. It seems...unfair. However, with a bit of knowledge, most players realize where the blind spots are, how limited its weapons are, how poor its shields are, etc. It's why getting a new mod installed makes the game so much more difficult: you just don't know how the ships work yet. There's no way to impart this without just playing the game, though. Missions help but because you can equip your ship with anything, it's a bit disingenuous to the campaign. Perhaps it would be a bit too on the nose but having an allied ship come with you and "show" you where to hit the Venture, via in-game actions and text, would help.
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Megas

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Re: New player experience
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2017, 07:16:58 PM »

But you are also similarly armed with substandard stuff too, unless player is lucky in item generation (e.g., heavy blaster for Wolf, railguns for Hammerhead, two Talons for Condor).  The tutorial tells the player he should split the fleets up and take them one at a time, but I find that impossible and always fight both fleets at once no matter what I do.  Doing that, I found that peak performance is the most important stat, and Hardened Subsystems is perhaps the most important hullmod for that fight.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: New player experience
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2017, 09:24:04 PM »

I've been able to consistently split the fleets, as long as their orbits are slightly out of phase, it's definitely possible.
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AxleMC131

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Re: New player experience
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2017, 12:45:19 AM »

I also didn't, and still don't, understand the effect of mothballing, and why my resource indicators go totally wonky when I have ships that are mothballed.  More specifically, what does it do?  I feel there are complex mechanics here that are lacking explanation.

@Aven  Actually it's far more simple than you're making it out to be. From experimentation and experience, this is the basic list of does/does-not:

Mothballing a ship stops it from:

- Participating in combat
- Providing storage space to your fleet for cargo, crew, or fuel
- Requiring crew to operate
- Consuming supplies

Mothballing a ship does not prevent it from:
- Consuming fuel

That's really it. A mothballed ship still uses fuel in hyperspace, but everything else it would use or contribute from/to your fleet's stockpiles is nullified. The "resource indicators go totally wonky" thing is due to the sudden drop in fuel/crew/cargo capacity when you mothball a ship, sometimes leaving you over capacity.

You can see a very quick example here:

Spoiler

NB: The reason my supply consumption goes up when I mothball the ship is because I'm suddenly waaaaaay over capacity in terms of crew.

NBB: Ignore the ship I'm mothballing there - it's a WIP from my mod. ;)





[close]

Hope that helps clear up at least that part of your confusion.  :P
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