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Author Topic: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2  (Read 18055 times)

ANGRYABOUTELVES

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[0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« on: October 24, 2017, 05:48:15 PM »

Starsector’s weapon balance is generally very good, but after playing for an uncountable number of hours, I have found several nits to pick. I intend this mod to smooth out what I perceive as rough spots in vanilla weapon balance as unobtrusively and as compatibly as possible. This means: 1. Not altering OP costs at all. Altering OP costs means altering all the default variants that mount those weapons so they’re neither under or over their OP limit, and as mod ship variants may use vanilla weapons this would be practically impossible. 2. No radical weapon redesigns; weapons should remain within the same roles, so as not to break any variants that use the changed weapons. I also will include an explanation of the reasoning behind each change, so if you disagree with something I’ve done feel free to politely tell me where I’ve gone wrong, or call me a dumb idiot butthead instead.

Download: https://mega.nz/#!H8JCASwB!Sy_RcXkdIh_CZSVu1qmM56YBM0XTxRtOWCIAaZcJxuQ

Weapon Balance Changes

Light Needler: 800 range -> 700 range, burst size 10 -> 15 shots, chargedown 2.5 -> 3.75, spread/shot 1 -> 0.66
My problem with the original Light Needler is that it’s effectively a medium ballistic wearing clothing one size too small, and this is primarily because it has the range of a medium ballistic. The first step to making it a de facto small ballistic is to chop off some of that range. However, this alone would make it far too similar to the Railgun; increasing the burst size solidifies the Light Needler’s role as a heavy-alpha weapon, and I think makes up for the loss of range. Similarly increasing the chargedown keeps the DPS the same despite the increased burst size, and reducing the spread/shot is necessary to maintain the burst's shot distribution profile; each burst will still generate the same amount of recoil, so the distribution of shots remains the same over the whole burst.

Heavy Needler: Burst size 15 -> 30 shots, chargedown 2.5 -> to 5, spread/shot 1 -> 0.5
The Heavy Needler isn’t good enough to be worth 15 OP and it’s not distinct enough from the other medium kinetics. Changing it into the same kind of heavy-alpha weapon as the Light Needler fixes both those issues; high-alpha flux-efficient kinetics are very effective at flux warring, making the Heavy Needler actually worth the price tag.

Arbalest Autocannon: 170 flux/shot -> 125 flux/shot.
The Arbalest is strictly inferior to the Railgun, a weapon 1 OP cheaper and 1 size-class smaller. So, like the Heavy Mortar, it now has the lone saving grace of flux efficiency.

Haephestus Assault Gun: 120 -> 180 dam/flux/shot, 240 shots/min -> 160 shots/min (chargedown from 0.25 -> 0.375), spread/shot 2 -> 3
Having almost the same armor penetration as the Heavy Mortar is pitiful for a large HE weapon. The Haephestus deserves better; it should at least have higher per-shot damage than the Devastator Cannon. 180 damage per shot is just lower than the Heavy Mauler, which I think is a better spot for a large HE assault weapon to be. DPS remains unchanged. Recoil per shot has been increased to maintain the shot distribution and the ratio of recoil to damage; the HAG has the same amount of spread after the same amount of firing time, rather than the same number of shots.

Antimatter Blaster: Removed ammunition.
Limited ammunition for ballistic and energy weaponry was deprecated for a reason; it’s a redundant mechanic, as CR does essentially the same thing. I’m not even sure why the AM blaster continues to have limited ammunition, as it’ll almost never run out of charges before you run out of either CR or enemy ships. Nonetheless, I believe that non-recharging ammunition on guns is neither fun nor necessary for balance purposes, and thus I banish its last vanilla occurrence.

Hurricane MIRV Launcher: Chargedown from 5 to 15, projectile HP 350 -> 250. Identical to SWP values; thank you DR.
I’ve played with Ship & Weapon Pack and its predecessor Starsector Plus for so long that I almost forgot that this thing is ridiculous in vanilla. It’s silly, overpowered, and needs to stop. It does enough DPS and burst damage to overwhelm most shields by itself even with the High Explosive damage type, it fires so fast that there’s no opportunity to close in between shots, and it has enough ammo to fire continuously for almost a minute without EMR. If an enemy ship has one, the only thing you can do is keep out of range of its guns and stall out its ammunition. In player hands, it’s a death cannon. The solution is, as SWP and SSP have successfully implemented, to significantly reduce the fire rate and make the projectile easier to shoot down.

Changelog
Spoiler
0.2a
Added utility flag to mod_info.json.

0.2
Haephestus Assault Gun: 2 -> 3 spread/shot.
Light Needler: burst size 20 -> 15, chargedown 5 -> 3.75, spread/shot 0.5 -> 0.66

0.1
Light Needler: 800 range -> 700 range, burst size 10 -> 20, chargedown 2.5 -> to 5, spread/shot 1 -> 0.5
Heavy Needler: Burst size 15 -> 30 damage, chargedown 2.5 -> to 5, spread/shot 1 -> 0.5
Arbalest Autocannon: 170 flux/shot -> 125 flux/shot.
Haephestus Assault Gun: 120 -> 180 dam/flux/shot, 240 shots/min -> 160 shots/min (chargedown from 0.25 -> 0.375).
Antimatter Blaster: Removed ammunition.
Hurricane MIRV Launcher: Chargedown from 5 to 15, projectile HP 350 -> 250. Identical to SWP values; thank you DR.
[close]
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 09:40:39 AM by ANGRYABOUTELVES »
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AxleMC131

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.1
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2017, 10:13:04 PM »

While I personally don't use balance mods as I'm not hugely pedantic about such things, all these tweaks seem entirely sensible here on paper - managing to keep weapons divergent from each other, without completely changing anything and keeping everything nicely balanced. Definitely something I'll keep my eyes on if I ever start to reconsider the stock game's balance!  ;)
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.1
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2017, 05:48:45 PM »

Update 0.2
Haephestus Assault Gun:
2 -> 3 spread/shot.
When decreasing the HAG's firing rate, I overlooked the effect this had on recoil over time, potentially making it too good at swatting frigates before accumulated spread kicks in. This change brings the HAG's damage/recoil ratio back in line with vanilla.

Light Needler: burst size 20 -> 15, chargedown 5 -> 3.75, spread/shot 0.5 -> 0.66
Several people brought up in Discord that the Light Needler's burst was increased too much, and after further testing I have to say I agree. Surprisingly, the specific problem ship didn't end up being the Lasher or the Hammerhead; it was the Sunder. Being able to throw out 2k kinetic damage at the same time as a HEF-boosted Autopulse magazine was just too much burst at once.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 05:50:31 PM by ANGRYABOUTELVES »
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Bastion.Systems

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2017, 09:32:24 AM »

Going to try this, all the changes seem super sensible on paper at least.
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2018, 09:40:06 AM »

Update 0.2a
Added utility flag to mod_info.json.
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Wyvern

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2018, 02:40:51 PM »

This is neat!  I've actually been working on a slightly more extensive balance plugin, and hit some of the same points as you have.  That said, I think you're missing one: the vanilla railgun is -also- essentially a medium weapon in a small slot; both it and the light needler need nerfs.  (In my case, I reduced range on the light needler to 700 & reduced its dps slightly, while the railgun I actually increased its range to 800... and then reduced flux/s to ~130 and dps to ~100, making it a small slot equivalent of the HVD and Gauss Cannon.)
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

jpwrunyan

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2018, 05:02:20 PM »

I love this mod. Someone pointed me to it on discord as an example of a mod that fixes vanilla.

I really hope these balance changes go into the vanilla game. I also noticed that the needler seemed ... extraordinary.

Now I need to go put them on my Sunder.
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Deshara

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2018, 06:30:36 PM »

RE: antimatter charges

I'm pretty sure it's there to balance capital ships who have A) the flux capacity to use them and B) the slots to spare and C) CR to spare
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Alex

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2018, 06:39:28 PM »

(I'm totally planning on stealing some of these, btw, if there's time.)
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MesoTroniK

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2018, 07:10:32 PM »

(I'm totally planning on stealing some of these, btw, if there's time.)

Don't forget to look at these as well Alex :)

http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=13594.msg228941#msg228941

Alex

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2018, 07:18:58 PM »

Yep, I will for sure. A bit harder to evaluate not knowing the reasons for Tartiflette's changes, though; i.e. the point Thaago brought up re: mod ship speed in conjunction with the Light Needler is an important bit of context I wouldn't have. Still, definitely going to look through it!
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MajorTheRed

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2018, 07:31:11 PM »

Mod-related question:
How does conflict between an identical weapon in vanilla and in a mod is resolved? Does the mod have precedence over vanilla?
Does it also work for ships?
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Alex

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2018, 07:33:40 PM »

Yes and yes. Mod stuff overrides vanilla stuff when the game is loaded. (If multiple mods modify the same thing, I believe the mod that's first in the mod list will take precedence, but I could be misremembering this and it could in fact be the opposite.)
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Wyvern

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2018, 07:35:54 PM »

So, just to add a note here: I made, as I mentioned, some similar balance tweaks.  Had a nice, well-intentioned justification for every change I made... and never released the plugin, because in final testing... well.  While my adjustments indubitably made the choices more balanced, they also made them less fun.

And that was kinda demoralizing, so I never went back to re-tweak things and see if I could get improved balance without losing that hard-to-define fun factor.

That said, presented here are some of the changes I play-tested that I really think are improvements:

Light Autocannon improved accuracy.  Gives the gun an (albeit small) niche compared to the otherwise-superior light dual autocannon.
Arbalest Autocannon drastically reduced flux cost (170/s to 130/s) so that the heavy autocannon & railgun aren't straight upgrades.
Storm Needler DPS reduced from 750 to 500 (i.e. damage-per-shot made the same as smaller needlers) and flux cost decreased from 650/s to 400/s (i.e. flux cost per shot made the same as the smaller needlers).  The result is actually usable, where the current storm needler really isn't.

Mjolnir Cannon: Changed to a clip-based ammunition-using weapon, with a reduced flux cost to compensate.  Again, a change made because the current Mjolnir just... doesn't have a good niche; you're basically always better off with a specialized weapon given their current stats.  Going to burst damage with a lower sustained damage gives them a viable niche where they're not directly competing with autocannons or hellbores.
Code
Mjolnir Cannon,mjolnir,2,0.4,10000,900,,400,200,10,25,24,10,0.65,5,ENERGY,300,,0,0.75,1,,0,5,1,10,,900,,,75,,"energy18, remnant",7.5

Thumper: Also changed to a clip-based weapon, with sustained DPS similar to the current Thumper; this gives it an (albeit still rather poor) niche as a jousting weapon or a sort-of-okayish option for ships like the Hound or Cerberus that really can't afford to go the specialized-ballistics route.  It's -still- just about the worst possible choice for armament on anything with two or more medium ballistics, but it's somewhat less terrible.
Code
Thumper,shredder,0,,700,700,,200,,1,25,9,40,2.5,20,FRAGMENTATION,40,,0,3.05,20,0.05,0,7,1,20,,800,,,30,,"he10, kinetic10",3.8

I won't share the specifics of the changes I made to the rest of the needler family (edit: and railguns), as that gets to the heart of where I had issues in gameplay testing... but I will say that I'm in favor of reducing range to 700 for all needlers, and increasing the overall DPS of the heavy needler a bit.

The other comment I'll make is that, if you're looking at weapon balance, the Heavy Mauler is really out of line - arguably more so than light needlers or railguns.  I couldn't do anything to it in a simple rebalance patch, but I believe it should be split into two separate weapons: one that retains the current mauler's armor-breaking capability, but sacrifices its range, and one that keeps the range (and perhaps even the overall DPS), but with notably lower per-shot damage.  Edit: Plus, it'd just be nice for AI ship management to be able to give, say, an Eagle, 2x Heavy Autocannon and some (currently nonexistent) range 800 HE weapon, or 2x HVD and a range 1000 HE weapon.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2018, 07:44:30 PM by Wyvern »
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Alex

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2018, 08:00:18 PM »

Thank you for the thoughts/suggestions!

(I think there's a difference between "balancing" and "giving things a niche"; the latter seems more important. E.G. the Heavy Mauler is... quite good... but it's also got a niche and doesn't out-compete other weapons out of existence. That said, interesting idea re: splitting it into two weapons; probably more than I want to do at this point, but I think it's got potential.

And, yeah, I totally hear you re: the danger of balancing the fun out.)
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