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Author Topic: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2  (Read 17939 times)

Embolism

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2018, 02:08:58 AM »

Put Ion Pulser on the Xyphos instead. ;)
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Tartiflette

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2018, 02:15:22 AM »

If I wasn't trying to stick as close as possible to vanilla, my ideal changes would include/be instead:

Light Needler:
Same burst
Range reduced to 700 from 800
Maybe OP cost reduced to 8 from 9?

Railgun:
Range raised to 800 from 700
Firerate reduced to 60/75 rpm from 100
Flux per shot ratio increased to 1.1 from 0.9(?)
Maybe damage slightly raised?

That way the light autocannon is there for constant pressure, the light needler has very flux efficient bursts and the railgun becomes a somewhat long range "poke" weapon HVD style.

Haphaestus Assault Gun:
Accuracy slightly (emphasis on slightly) increased during sustained fire

Heavy Mauler:
Shot speed reduced by 25%

Not reduced to Hellbore level but enough that it doesn't compete with the HAG anymore in the small target clearing role. And it still hits like a truck against anything bigger.

Heavy Needler:
Maybe OP cost reduced to 14 from 15?

One more than the HVD and 200 less range but that flux efficiency!

Terminator Drone:
Gets Ion Cannon instead of Ion Pulser
Gets flare system
No PD laser
Wings of two
Rebuild faster

The perfect distraction while not completely infuriating. And if the drone has a flare system, the Tempest itself might get something new too? Okay there I might get into "what if" teritories and it would need testing.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 02:38:36 AM by Tartiflette »
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Wyvern

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2018, 08:56:53 AM »

Based on my testing, I would strongly recommend that reducing the range on light needlers -not- be paired with increasing the range on railguns.  I tried an HVD-style railgun (800 range, ~100 dps, ~130 flux/s), and - while it makes for interesting choices on frigates and even some destroyers - by the time you hit cruisers or capital ships the optimal choices degrade to: railguns, vulcans, or leave the slots empty.  Range is just that much of a power stat, especially when the options are "pick a range 800 weapon that can actually put pressure on things you're shooting medium and large guns at, or pick a range 700 weapon that generally won't."
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Megas

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2018, 07:29:58 PM »

Quote
Mjolnir Cannon: Changed to a clip-based ammunition-using weapon, with a reduced flux cost to compensate.  Again, a change made because the current Mjolnir just... doesn't have a good niche; you're basically always better off with a specialized weapon given their current stats.  Going to burst damage with a lower sustained damage gives them a viable niche where they're not directly competing with autocannons or hellbores.
Mjolnir has a niche - "ubergun" for ships with the flux stats to use it.  Admitting, the only unskilled stock ship that might be able to use it is Conquest.  Low tech ships probably need skills and dissipation min-maxed to have a chance to use it long enough.  Mjolnir has good range, decent accuracy, decent power and range, and EMP on top.  Mjolnir does everything.  Compared to other weapons, Hellbore is heavy version of Heavy Mauler (optimized for anti-armor), Mark IX is basic, efficient, but horribly inaccurate, Devastator is not a long-range weapon, HAG is... good if you cannot use Mjolnir, Gauss is a sniper weapon, and Storm Needler lacks range for its size and is about as much a flux hog as Mjolnir.

On Conquest, my ideal configuration is one side with Gauss and Maulers for anti-Paragon, and the other side with dual Mjolnirs and dual flak cannons to rip everything else and have decent PD.  But, because Mjolnir is one of the rarest weapons in the game that is almost impossible to stockpile, I get to use more common and inferior alternatives like Mark IXs, Heavy Maulers, and Ion Beam; or (someone else's) Heavy Needler and Devastator.  On mod ships with large hybrid or universal, if it does not have enough other mounts for kinetic spam (to enable easy shield pierce from Tachyon Lances), Mjolnir is the default choice on the mount because it is just that good.  There are exceptions, like Tachyon Lances on Karkinos with lots of kinetics, or Gauss Cannon on Brilliant to compliment Heavy Mauler hardpoints.  Regardless, Mjolnir puts plasma cannon to shame.

Re: HAG
I do not use this much because HAG is a bit too rare to replace except maybe those who have commission with Hegemony or something.  But, since Hellbore lost its fireRate, HAG is decent as a proper heavy HE weapon, but it is a bit too flux hungry for comfort except maybe for Conquest, who has better things to mount (like Mjolnir) if available.  It does not help that Heavy Mauler is one of the best weapons to put in any medium mount that can take it, which means complimentary heavy mounts get either kinetic or Mjolnir.  Generally, my default choice for a heavy ballistic is Mark IX for being common, reasonably efficient, and effective for any ship, and compliments Heavy Mauler well.  If HAG was readily available, I could probably find something that can use it.
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Embolism

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2018, 11:42:28 PM »

Side note about the Terminator: there's a non-phase Terminator sprite in the game that should suit it better given it no longer uses phase cloaking. Can we pretty please change it to that? ;D
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Wyvern

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2018, 11:43:54 PM »

Ah, that is a point - my changes to the Mjolnir were also intended to make it much less of a super-weapon when installed on various mod hulls, especially the ever-popular "Let's make a destroyer with a large ballistic slot!"  I'd forgotten that part of my original reasoning; thanks for the reminder, Megas.
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Embolism

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2018, 12:27:03 AM »

I don't think mods should be taken into consideration when it comes to vanilla balance. Adding features for mods sure, tweaking numbers for the sake of a variety of potentially non-existent mods, no.

If you never meant for your changes to be vanilla then I apologise for my presumption.
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Wyvern

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2018, 03:06:34 PM »

I don't think mods should be taken into consideration when it comes to vanilla balance. Adding features for mods sure, tweaking numbers for the sake of a variety of potentially non-existent mods, no.

If you never meant for your changes to be vanilla then I apologise for my presumption.
Well, if we're just taking vanilla into account, then I'd hold that my changes are -still- good, because in vanilla, the Mjolnir is just not a good weapon on anything.  Usable on the Conquest, sure, but not good.  Supporting mods is a good secondary goal.
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Thaago

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2018, 03:41:21 PM »

I actually like both the Mjolnir and Storm Needler as center mounts on an Onslaught. It does take some flux management with weapon groups, but it works pretty well. Mjolnir in particular lets you kill smaller ships very easily.
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Retry

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2018, 05:47:09 PM »

I don't think mods should be taken into consideration when it comes to vanilla balance. Adding features for mods sure, tweaking numbers for the sake of a variety of potentially non-existent mods, no.

If you never meant for your changes to be vanilla then I apologise for my presumption.
Well, if we're just taking vanilla into account, then I'd hold that my changes are -still- good, because in vanilla, the Mjolnir is just not a good weapon on anything.  Usable on the Conquest, sure, but not good.  Supporting mods is a good secondary goal.
If you have the skills & officers for it, a Legion w/ twin Mjolnirs can be a serious problem.  As Thaago says, the center mount is a legitimate location too, albeit the Onslaught is a bit flux-choked in general.  Vanilla has few ships with large ballistic slots (Mudskipper II, Dominator, Conquest, Onslaught, & Legion), and of those few that do they generally have poor flux specs (Conquest being the mid-tech exception), so the Mjolnir suffers more because the lack of suitable (i.e. midtech) platforms than from actually being a bad weapon.
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Megas

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2018, 06:42:21 PM »

If you have the skills & officers for it, a Legion w/ twin Mjolnirs can be a serious problem.  As Thaago says, the center mount is a legitimate location too, albeit the Onslaught is a bit flux-choked in general.  Vanilla has few ships with large ballistic slots (Mudskipper II, Dominator, Conquest, Onslaught, & Legion), and of those few that do they generally have poor flux specs (Conquest being the mid-tech exception), so the Mjolnir suffers more because the lack of suitable (i.e. midtech) platforms than from actually being a bad weapon.
Legion with twin Mjolnir (with four dual flak and maybe one Heavy Mauler) is seriously powerful playership, but it needs to min-max the skills for it.  Even then, it cannot keep it up for extended periods and will need to vent.  That said, Mjolnir is superior for the ship that can use it effectively.

Lack of suitable hulls is a problem for large dumb-fire missiles (Hammer Barrage and Cyclone Reaper) too.  Gryphon is the only ship that can aim them easily, but it is very fragile for its size.  Apogee's large mount points to the side, which makes non-tracking missiles awkward.  Conquest is primarily a broadside ship; using Cyclones means it cannot blast that enemy with capital-grade ballistics from the broadsides.  Astral is primarily a carrier that should abuse its system for bomber spam, and bombers are very OP hungry.
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Embolism

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #41 on: September 01, 2018, 06:53:25 PM »

Worst offender has to be Guardian PD though. Only Paragon and Odyssey can use it (Apogee should really get a large turret instead of hardpoint) and unlike the Devastator it just doesn't do enough to justify the limited arcs available to mount it.
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Wyvern

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #42 on: September 01, 2018, 07:19:45 PM »

I never did get around to testing it, but I always wanted to try just making the Guardian a medium energy weapon.  Keep all the other stats - OP cost, flux cost, etc, the same, just allow it to be installed in the much-more-common medium energy turrets.
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Deshara

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2018, 01:55:02 AM »

the guardian REALLY needs to be mounted on large-arc turrets.
Maybe all large energy weapons should be given nerfed turn rate, and the guardian be the only one that can turn competitively and then making most mounts that can hold it better arcs?
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Megas

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2018, 09:40:58 AM »

Worst offender has to be Guardian PD though. Only Paragon and Odyssey can use it (Apogee should really get a large turret instead of hardpoint) and unlike the Devastator it just doesn't do enough to justify the limited arcs available to mount it.
At least Guardian Paladin PD is usable by the two hulls that can use it effectively.  It is simply that the capitals need the large mount for assault, and Tachyon Lance is great.  Also, Odyssey and Paragon has loads of small mounts that can be easily filled by whatever small PD flavor you want.  For mod ships with large universals or hybrids, it does not compete with the likes of Mjolnir, Tachyon Lance, Locusts, or other overpowered mod weapon.

Trying to use it on a hardpoint with Sunder and Apogee as an assault weapon is a pain.

I would not mind it being installable on medium mount at inflated cost (no less than 15 OP).  Probably still take dual flak over it when applicable.

No, large energy mounts do not need to lose turn rate.  Autopulse is a pray-and-spray weapon and needs to turn relatively quickly.  The rest are already slow enough.  HIL is especially painfully slow turning.

Speaking of other heavy energy weapons...
* Autopulse is good alpha, but not much better than medium energy weapon (with +100 range) if you need to attack for a sustained period of time.  Practically requires Expanded Magazines, so it is effectively more expensive to mount than 20 OP.
* High Intensity Laser is only good if it can get past shields.  Only Sunder and Paragon have the means (by mounting ballistics) to do it consistently.  The rest need support.
* Tachyon Lance is nearly hitscan and great for what it does, but the ship needs to be able to at least put hard flux on the shield or at least somehow trick the AI to lower shields.
* Plasma Cannon is generally awful.  Terrible flux efficiency and cost to the point that it is mostly a playership weapon, extremely expensive at 30 OP (for performance inferior to Mjolnir).  Its only significant advantage it has over heavy blaster is +100 range.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2018, 09:43:03 AM by Megas »
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