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Author Topic: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2  (Read 18105 times)

Wyvern

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2018, 08:21:05 PM »

Oh, speaking of Heavy Mauler and out-competing other weapons... I forgot one: reduced flux cost on the Assault Chaingun.  I reduced it to 327 flux/s, which in retrospect was probably just a bit too much.

But without some sort of change, you get better kill times by replacing Assault Chainguns with Heavy Maulers, especially for poorly-designed variants like the vanilla hammerhead that for some reason mounts two of the things instead of the more sensible one assualt chaingun and one heavy machine gun, just because you can't sustain chaingun fire but you can sustain mauler fire.

Edit: Though, that's not a Heavy Mauler problem, exactly, since you can also replace those chainguns with heavy mortars to similar effect.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2018, 12:15:42 AM by Wyvern »
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2018, 12:50:32 AM »

(I'm totally planning on stealing some of these, btw, if there's time.)
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Tartiflette

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2018, 01:26:00 AM »

Okay so about the thought process behind my changes:
The most important thing I had in mind was to keep the current vanilla feel. In no way I wanted to change a weapon into something else, or entirely remove the gradient of good weapon and "bad" weapons. I also wanted the tournament mod to be usable in campaign as a balance patch, meaning no OP changes for the most part. And with one exception I alsways went for the minimal amount of change, if possible one single stat.

Another thing I had in mind is that despite the importance of the Players, they can only pilot one ship at a time so AI vs AI is the bulk of the game. So if I could make the AI largely more proeficient with a weapon at the cost of some rare use cases for the player, I would do that. I think it is more frustrating to see the AI fail to use a weapon over and over again that being able to eke out an edge as a player from time to time. It may be more visible in a Tournament rather than a regular game, but the issue remain the same in both cases.

All I wanted to do is to shave off some of the weapons that were just too good/unstoppable and ended up over used in the 4 Tournaments preceding the changes. Choices and strategies are everything in that setting and if something become de facto the go-to weapon in every situation, maybe there is something wrong with it? That kind of thing.

I'll add that the argument I heard of keeping a weapon OP in the game "because the player can use it as an advantage to beat up less optimized AI fleets" doesn't sound very good to me. And all those changes have been made for vanilla first since in the tournament the factions have to use their own weapons, that includes Vanilla tech "factions".

To the changes then:
Light Needler:
- Fires burst of 8 shots from 10 (125dps/100fps from 145dps/118fps)

The Light needler is virtually the best small KE weapon (unless you REALLY need the 100dmg of the railgun that can sometimes happen) in particular on larger ships with ITU. It combines an impressive flux efficiency, the best range and one of the best dps, and for some people is a better Large Needler. I first thought to swap the ranges with the Railgun and slightly reduce the Railgun flux efficiency and fire-rate, and I still think that would be a better change, but that would also denature the weapon a bit and is a change to complex to my taste for the tournament. The simplest change I could make to keep the weapon relevant but not overwhelming was to change the number of shots per burst. I'll admit I might have overdone it slightly though given the significant OP cost of the weapon, and maybe 9 shots instead of 10 would have been enough.

All small guided missile launchers:
- fire delay raised to 3s from 1

This one is mostly to help the AI and prevent large missile dumps against the first frigate that overloads. It's not a necessary change per se but it also avoid a bit missile spam, making PD a bit more relevant. For the player, it forces to choose spamming unguided missiles or timing your shots with guided ones. For the AI it slightly reduce the incentive to only give it regenerating or large ammo missiles in small slots.

Hurricane:
- Fire delay raised to 10s from 5

The Hurricane in vanilla is just overwhelming against everything that cannot use flak, and even then it better not be pressured elsewhere at the same time. The delay add some breathing room to defend against an already powerfull weapon, and help the AI to conserve some ammo to last longer in battle.

Pilum:
- Flight speed raised to 150su/s from 100

The Pilum went through a lot of changes, and it shows. From being the ultimate weapon, it has be relegated to backwater fleets and edge case uses. The only way to make the Pilum dangerous now is to spam it from EVERYTHING... Something the AI fleets won't do meaning the weapon is for the most part useless unless the Player is dedicated to use it. I only raised the speed a little to make it slightly more usefull but reverting to the full old engine stats might be in order now that it has a limited regen and we have good fighter screen to stop it.

Fortress Shield ship-system:
- Chargeup and chargedown raised to 1.5s from 1

The AI likes to flicker its Fortress Shield, making it frustrating to fight. This isn't a big change by any mean, but the longer delay further limit the oportunities for inflicting devastating shots between system uses, and forces some more comitment to use it instead of just instant damage soaking. Not a capital change by any mean.

Claw Wing:
- Has 3 fighters from 5

2-3 Claws can easily permanently shutdown even a cruiser unless it has full shield coverage. Having 5 of them in a wing means you can continuously replace the occasinal loss and keep nullifying one big ship. And a ship under Claw attack is but defenseless to anything else. Having several wings of Claws on different carrier can completely stop a large enemy force with no recourse. Reducing the wing to 3 means that losses start to take a toll on the ability of the wing to do its job, and recalling it becomes sometimes necessary to refill the losses, opening windows to recover control of the targeted ship.

The big changes now (those changes that me and others would really like to see in vanilla):

Sabot (all):
- EMP arching reduced to 200 damage from 400
- Split range reduced to 400su from 500
- Split spread raised to 30deg from 15
- Acceleration raised to 100su/s^2 from 50
- Launch speed reduced to 25su/s from 50
(Overall less bursty but more reliable.)

The big one and exception to my "only minimal change" rule. Sabots have been a point of contention in the tournaments because for the most part, they are both unstoppable thanks to long split range, and affect both shields with KE and hull with EMP, leaving a targeted ships no good choice to defend themselves. One Sabot hit is bad, several hits is a death sentence when big fleets collide. To the point the idea of banning them outright has been floated around several times.

This is a "sidegrade" to the current Sabot. On the one hand, it reduces the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" equation but halving the EMP arching damage. Regular EMP damage is still there so it is still more than enough to disable the weapons on the side hit, but not the entire ship. It increases the spread, but also reduce the split range, making cruisers just has suceptible to them, but smaller ships won't be hit by all the sub-munitions, especially if they drop their shield. the closer detonation also means that you can actually defend yourself against them. On the other hand, they have better acceleration and lower launch speed, meaning they will be FAR more reliable at getting to their intended target. You will never see Sabots drifting away from their target because they can't change direction at all in vanilla. It also means that at long range they are coming much faster, before the Harpoons they can be launched with. Overall, and with the others changes, they are a superior support weapon with those changes, while being less of a kick in the nethers.


Sabot Pod:
- Reduced volley to 2 missiles from 4

Same idea as the previous one: make Sabots more reliable and endurant as a support weapon, and less of an overwhelming sucker-punch.

Damper Field ship-system:
- Does not dissipate hard-flux while active
- Reduce incoming damage by 66% from 50%

This one is less of a nerf and more of a tweak to make the system more interesting. Currently a DF ship can swap between shield and system defenses forever while the other recharges/dissipates, making fighting them a BOOOORIIIING CHORE....... This on the other hands favors blocking damage spikes or stalling just a few seconds for help to come while not dragging out fights that are already lost. Offenssive ships can still dissipates weapon generated soft flux, but it cannot be used to make annoying Stalker-like damage sponges.

Kopesh wing:
- Rocket ammo reduced to 2x5 from 2x7

Kopeshes were virtually the only fighter used by mid tech. It completely eclispes the competition due to fast speed, reliable hits with fast rockets, very high damage, fast turnaround and sturdy hull. Low tech can barely block some of the rockets even when using dual flaks, and high tech is utterly at the mercy of those fighters given the amount of discreete ordinances their throw downrange against non AOE PD. Reducing the amount of threats a little goes a long way to bring them in line. They are still damn scary, but one can hope to survive with a solid phalanx of PD.

Talon wing:
- Cost raised to 2op from 0

This one is easy: free firepower isn't a choice. While it could make sense if the game only had dedicated carriers, this is not the case in SS and a combat ship with a deck can get some very usefull firepower for free. Easily fixed though.

Terminator Drone:
- Switched to Ion Cannon instead of Ion Pulser
- Added PD Laser

The Tempest is already good without the drone but a back-stabbing flux free pulser is overkill to me. Just the distraction of a pesky fly is a huge boost to land heavy blaster shots when the target turn their shield away but having the fly able to completely shut it down is just unfair. A ion cannon is already more than enough to disable some weapon quickly. On the other hand, adding some PD to it provide the interesting choice of keeping it around to protect the Tempest. Although a PD laser might be underpowered in this case and a burst PD would be more fitting. Additionally, they could also regen a bit faster now.

Again those changes are not necessary the "best" changes because I tried to respect the current feel of the game and avoided to break the existing variants. But I do believe they are adequate nonetheless. Overall I was less concerned by the weapons since having better and worse stuff is not a bad thing, but I tried to remove the ways some could be exploited in player builds.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2018, 03:57:50 AM by Tartiflette »
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MesoTroniK

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2018, 02:09:14 AM »

Talon wing:
- Cost raised to 2op from 0
This one is easy: free firepower isn't a choice. While it could make sense if the game only had dedicated carriers, this is not the case in SS and a combat ship with a deck can get some very usefull firepower for free. Easily fixed though.

I want to add to this, making the Talon cost *something* also means the Mining Pod is actually a choice that is relevant sometimes instead of not even worth their opportunity cost. Should *anything* in the game *never* be a relevant choice? I personally say no, and the Mining Pod is more or less the only thing in SS that is totally 100% worthless mostly because the Talon really is a monster and a free one at that.


I agree with pretty much everything you said, but wanted to add to the Talon point a bit specifically.

stormbringer951

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2018, 03:02:51 AM »

While I was writing a longer post, Tarti posted and explained what I wanted to say better than I could, so I have removed my redundant points.

As a long time tournament watcher, the balance issues aren't as glaring in general gameplay because variants aren't optimised and fleet comps aren't designed. That isn't a knock on the game, because requiring players to make more optimised variants and fleets just to not die horribly would make the difficulty on-ramp even more brutal for new players, and because optimising fleet comps might be more gamey than the vision Alex is going for. However, the AI doesn't really exploit strong things in the way that players will, so looking at player-designed fleets and what things they design fleet comps around is useful.

No vanilla variants use weapon group trickery to make AI ships use sabots in a more sensible way (en masse, at start of combat), and AI fleet generation doesn't make fleets with a bunch of sabot platforms with missile ships behind to delete high flux targets before they can even back off and vent. The fleet will eventually run out of missiles, but by then enough ships will be dead to brute force the survivors. The current sabots are an improvement on the previous iteration, where the sabots themselves could nuke down ships due to high per-projectile damage, and the ability to spam it in large numbers (8-12 shot volleys will thoroughly EMP out anything that drops its shield).

Claws are strong because they're a 5 per wing shielded ion fighter with decent speed and modest rebuild times where most ships don't have bubble shields, almost no AI variants have adequate anti-fighter defence and there is no fleet role for fighter defence variants, so it's quite possible that there may be no ships/wings that can deal with Claws very well. Even fairly capable hull will struggle to keep ten Claws off themselves before they get locked down. They cost 8 OP for five, so are easily affordable even on relatively OP-poor carriers, and will circlestrafe enemy ships unlike the Xyphos, and keep them locked down unless other ships scratch their buddy's back.

As an aside on fleet roles, I also have a problem with how useless frigate-sized escort ships often are in larger battles since they will bravely and uselessly die trying to get between the vulnerable ship they are defending and something that can kill them in a heartbeat, but this is somewhat masked by Dynasector reducing the relative proportions of smaller ship classes in larger fleets. Often the variant is more suited to smaller scale combat (compare and contrast Lasher escort to Vigilance support) than larger-scale combat This is probably a subject for another thread though.
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Tartiflette

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2018, 03:29:40 AM »

I would also add that there has been a strong push to add a lot of dedicated anti-fighter/PD wings to the game in mods as a way to shore up defenses against bombers and missiles, with great success I think.

This is a role that is almost exclusively filled by the Wasp in Vanilla (plus the remnant bomber curiously), and is probably a major factor in the way fighters feels extremely strong compared to everything else in 0.8. It also reduced the advantage of low/mid-tech over high tech against missiles due to how good Flak is compared to energy PD.

However the difficulty in designing such craft is that a fighter strong enough to quickly intercept a lot of missiles and wings is usually also overwhelmingly good against frigates. Solutions included a liberal use of the support role, pure shield fighters that only block shots, slow vulcan boats, beam fighters that just cannot overload a proper ship, PD_ONLY built-in weapons etc.
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2018, 10:36:29 AM »

Terminator Drone:
- Switched to Ion Cannon instead of Ion Pulser
- Added PD Laser
The Tempest is already good without the drone but a back-stabbing flux free pulser is overkill to me. Just the distraction of a pesky fly is a huge boost to land heavy blaster shots when the target turn their shield away but having the fly able to completely shut it down is just unfair. A ion cannon is already more than enough to disable some weapon quickly. On the other hand, adding some PD to it provide the interesting choice of keeping it around to protect the Tempest. Although a PD laser might be underpowered in this case and a burst PD would be more fitting. Additionally, they could also regen a bit faster now.
This seems like an overnerf of THE major feature of the Tempest. I DO agree that the Ion Pulsar is STUPID on the drone but giving it a single ion cannon and a PD LASER?! That just seems to me like crappy camouflage to hide how bad you hate this ship. "Look, look! I didn't COMPLETELY neuter the Tempest!"
That PD laser is going to be as useful as a screen door on a sub due to how much the drone moves around and with how energy PD needs a FLEET to be effective, the ion cannon is going to be worthless 95% of the time and let's not forget that the drone pops MUCH easier due to being shielded.
What I would do is pull out the pulsar, because YES it is too much for the drone to have,  and replace it with its old light AMB. Bam, done. The drone still stays a dangerous with a understandably long rebuild time instead of a screen door on an overpriced and expensive to maintain sub
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Wyvern

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2018, 12:17:41 PM »

This seems like an overnerf of THE major feature of the Tempest.
Having quite happily used the Tempest back in the days where there were no drones (or ship systems)... can't agree here.  It's a good frigate even without the terminator drone.  Personally, I'd probably go for a pulse laser on the terminator, rather than an ion cannon, so that a cruiser or capital ship can actually soak a few hits on armor before it really needs to prioritize taking out the drone.
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Alex

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2018, 12:36:34 PM »

senpai noticed me

(Haha, had an eye on this since you posted it :))


@Tartiflette, stormbringer: thank you for the added thoughts and explanations! That really helps a lot.


However the difficulty in designing such craft is that a fighter strong enough to quickly intercept a lot of missiles and wings is usually also overwhelmingly good against frigates. Solutions included a liberal use of the support role, pure shield fighters that only block shots, slow vulcan boats, beam fighters that just cannot overload a proper ship, PD_ONLY built-in weapons etc.

Funny, that's also exactly the reason the Wasp has the Stinger-class mine - something that's effective against fighters but doesn't really affect frigates. The Khopesh was also going to be a "slow vulcan boat"; this is why its ID is "hoplon", for a more defense-oriented fighter.


As far as the Tempest, I'll see if I get a chance to play around with it more. I'm not happy with the Ion Pulser but it's worked the best out of the options I've tired, at least feel-wise. I.E. the AM blaster is a neat idea but for various reasons the drone has a tough time using it well, etc.

Personally, I'd probably go for a pulse laser on the terminator, rather than an ion cannon, so that a cruiser or capital ship can actually soak a few hits on armor before it really needs to prioritize taking out the drone.

That might be a good idea - perhaps I've been trying to get too fancy with it.
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Wyvern

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2018, 02:50:43 PM »

Looking back at Angry's original tweaks: the HAG is actually a good weapon - it's just overshadowed by other options at the moment; a modest flux cost reduction is probably all it needs.  (My take on a balance plugin also nerfed the hellbore and devastator, which in retrospect was probably a step too far.)
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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2018, 04:07:21 PM »

I like the HAG as-is, as right now the HAG is clearly an upscaled-version of the Light Assault Gun.  With its RoF, high turn rate, good range, good HE DPS and decent accuracy it's a good multipurpose weapon especially against the smaller targets of the spectrum (FFs and DDs mostly, but you can make it work on fighters).  I think it's OK if its raw armor-piercing capability is lacking since it follows the LAG's school of thought which also has fairly underwhelming damage for its size, and that raw 960 DPS vs armor tends to wear down thick armor fast enough anyhow due to how the reduction is calculated.


Terminator Drone w/ a Pulse Laser could work fine, though I really like its ion pulser.  If that weapon change happens, can we see a new fighter LPC with an Ion Pulser?
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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2018, 04:23:40 PM »

I'll second what Stormbringer says about weapon group shenanigans: when the AI uses Sabots aggressively and en masse, as people in the tournament managed with tricks, they are beyond brutal. Reducing the pod burst to 2 is great.

The HAG could use either a flux efficiency boost or a damage per shot boost imo. The flux efficiency boost helps it as an 'always on' HE weapon designed to force the enemy to keep their shield up - the damage/shot helps for armor penetration. Personally I like the flux efficiency more because its a different niche, one completely opposite of the Hellbore which has excellent penetration but invites shield flickering.
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MesoTroniK

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2018, 04:57:09 PM »

The HAG should not deal more damage per shot, or any other tweaks beyond flux efficiency if it is to get any buffs at all.

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2018, 05:13:17 PM »

However the difficulty in designing such craft is that a fighter strong enough to quickly intercept a lot of missiles and wings is usually also overwhelmingly good against frigates. Solutions included a liberal use of the support role, pure shield fighters that only block shots, slow vulcan boats, beam fighters that just cannot overload a proper ship, PD_ONLY built-in weapons etc.

...or cheat like I did with the Crun Gun on the GM Gladius and script a very, very, very weak weapon to deal a lotta dahmidge to fighters only - not missiles or ships, ONLY fighters. Also because it's attached to a rather 'soft' fighter, ship PD is able to munch the wing quite easily. This produces a situation where the enemy fighters around your own ships are cleared out, but on over extending your own anti-fighter fighters are annihilated by enemy PD without causing much, if any, damage to enemy vessels. The end result is it's very difficult for the enemy to form a 'fighter ball' over your own ships, without completely neutering their own ability to attack you, causing the fighter war to end up being a sort of shifting tide between you and the enemy gaining and then losing air superiority. Massing the fighter will demolish carrier fleets, true, but will be completely useless against traditional ship-of-the-line fleets, making their massed use a gamble. You also avoid having these fighters end up being overpowered against frigates etc., as the increased damage is scripted to be fighter only. This avoids the problem of making a weapon that needs to be powerful enough to break and fighter shield in a one-on-one combat, and yet somehow won't overload a frigate if used in high numbers

It's not an elegant solution, in fact I'll admit it's horrifically crude, but it is a possibility.

As for the Terminator drone - Why not a version of the ion pulser, that does no EMP damage? That way the ship still does the neat drive-by shots, while not crippling the enemy ship in one go.

MesoTroniK

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Re: [0.8.1a] Angry's Weapon Tweaks 0.2
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2018, 07:33:21 PM »

As for the Terminator drone - Why not a version of the ion pulser, that does no EMP damage? That way the ship still does the neat drive-by shots, while not crippling the enemy ship in one go.

That wouldn't be an Ion weapon though, and a bad idea as it would be confusing as name would not equal mechanics.

Honestly, I think the more graceful solution thinking on this more would be to make the Terminator's gun a unique "Ion Micropulser" or something like that. Simply an Ion Pulser that fires in 3 shot bursts with several seconds of cooldown in between them. Splitting the difference between it having the monstrously powerful Ion Pulser on a tiny drone fighter, and simply downgrading it to a standard Ion Cannon.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2018, 07:36:31 PM by MesoTroniK »
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