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Author Topic: [0.9.1a] Stop Gap Measure - Ships for Vanilla  (Read 113689 times)

Goumindong

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Re: [0.9a] Stop Gap Measure - Ships for Vanilla
« Reply #135 on: September 03, 2019, 12:35:04 AM »

Haven't flown one yet but the Zenith should probably be toned down. TPC's are as good or better than anything the Apogee can reasonably fit in its large slot. Its got 2 fighter wings on top of it with 25 effective more OP (TPC doesn't have a fitting cost so that assumes a 20 OP large in the slot) and still has .6 shields.


No way that isn't the best combat cruiser in the game at 20 DP
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MajorTheRed

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Re: [0.9a] Stop Gap Measure - Ships for Vanilla
« Reply #136 on: September 03, 2019, 10:41:42 AM »

Interesting. Have you fought some of them? It's sometime hard to balance ships if you have not the opportunity to fight them. So far, I found the Zenith lacklustre cause you only get the TPC to really engage the ennemy. The medium synergy mount is good for player-piloting, but the AI is unable to use this mount with a energy weapons (in general AI struggle with hardpoint).
I guess if its too OP I could at least remove some small energy turrets, or redicue medium turret to small ones. In the end the ship is mostly relying on its 2 fighter bay and the TPC to fight, everything else is more or less useless in the hand of the AI, or gadgets. But if anyone else have comments on the ship it could help to balance it
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Goumindong

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Re: [0.9a] Stop Gap Measure - Ships for Vanilla
« Reply #137 on: September 04, 2019, 03:34:21 AM »

I dont think i have actually seen one in the wild. My guess is that even if the TPC didnt fire it would be a ridiculously strong ship with its shield and 2 fighter bays.
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Goumindong

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Re: [0.9a] Stop Gap Measure - Ships for Vanilla
« Reply #138 on: September 11, 2019, 12:53:35 PM »

Interesting. Have you fought some of them? It's sometime hard to balance ships if you have not the opportunity to fight them. So far, I found the Zenith lacklustre cause you only get the TPC to really engage the ennemy. The medium synergy mount is good for player-piloting, but the AI is unable to use this mount with a energy weapons (in general AI struggle with hardpoint).
I guess if its too OP I could at least remove some small energy turrets, or redicue medium turret to small ones. In the end the ship is mostly relying on its 2 fighter bay and the TPC to fight, everything else is more or less useless in the hand of the AI, or gadgets. But if anyone else have comments on the ship it could help to balance it

So fit with TPC/Typhoon in the front, Stabilized Shields, Hardened Shields, 2 pulse lasers, and Extended Magazines on the side and 2 claws this thing is... Its hilariously OP. Its sustained DPS is low but it doesn't lose flux fights and it has fighters. The AI will sometimes take damage because it just doesn't see the need to raise its shields as the enemy is fluxing out and it has zero flux and full armor.

It does use all its missiles (Typhoon/Harpoons) in order to kill a sim eagle when it has no officer but it kills said eagle far faster than a Aurora and this isn't really set that well for AI control. If it has a pulse laser in the front instead of the typhoon it simply kills the sim eagle without taking damage except maybe some graviton chip... with a steady AI no officer. Now i am not saying i expect a ship to lose but it probably shouldn't win so handily or swiftly when comparable DP (or higher) standard ships have problems.

Now this isn't fleet performance. But I don't see it doing worse in fleets than it does vs "never dies *** eagle" in the simulation. Its got pulse lasers on the side to deal with frigates, huge shields, great, and efficient foward firepower.
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MajorTheRed

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Re: [0.9a] Stop Gap Measure - Ships for Vanilla
« Reply #139 on: September 11, 2019, 01:00:33 PM »

Okay, thanks for making the test. I will check how to change it to make it interesting but not OP.
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WolfPriest

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Re: [0.9a] Stop Gap Measure - Ships for Vanilla
« Reply #140 on: September 12, 2019, 02:33:55 AM »

This mod got me into using mods, I love it. Is there any chance this will be made compatible with "Version Checker"? Sorry if somebody already asked.
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Goumindong

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Re: [0.9a] Stop Gap Measure - Ships for Vanilla
« Reply #141 on: September 13, 2019, 12:09:53 AM »

Okay, thanks for making the test. I will check how to change it to make it interesting but not OP.

I have a colony and have got a few for a fleet setting and theyre even more bonkers there. They can focus their TPCs for devastating fire to capital distances 900x1.6 = 1440, 1000x 1.4 = 1400) and have huge shields. If i wasnt determined to just spam them that is all i would bring.

Edit: example. I could bring one onslaught and get 1100 dissipation and 2 TPC and 1.0 shields. Of i could bring 2 zeniths, get 2000 dissipation and 2 TPCs and .6 shields and 4 fighters.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2019, 12:13:14 AM by Goumindong »
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MajorTheRed

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Re: [0.9a] Stop Gap Measure - Ships for Vanilla
« Reply #142 on: September 13, 2019, 05:22:33 AM »

This mod got me into using mods, I love it. Is there any chance this will be made compatible with "Version Checker"? Sorry if somebody already asked.

Yep this is planned for the next released, it will just take some time as I need to dive code to also create new starting options, as well as a few more ships and aesthetics features.

I have a colony and have got a few for a fleet setting and theyre even more bonkers there. They can focus their TPCs for devastating fire to capital distances 900x1.6 = 1440, 1000x 1.4 = 1400) and have huge shields. If i wasnt determined to just spam them that is all i would bring.

Edit: example. I could bring one onslaught and get 1100 dissipation and 2 TPC and 1.0 shields. Of i could bring 2 zeniths, get 2000 dissipation and 2 TPCs and .6 shields and 4 fighters.

Your example speak quite for himself indeed. So TPC seems a no-go in this case and need to be switched with something else
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Goumindong

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Re: [0.9a] Stop Gap Measure - Ships for Vanilla
« Reply #143 on: September 13, 2019, 03:05:08 PM »

So TPC's are huge massive things that need ships built around them and hard to salvage. But what is pretty easy to salvage is ballistic weaponry.

Weapons that fit the profile for what you might include would be the Hellbore, HAG, Mark IX, or Hammer Barrage.

A hellbore cannon has the same long term flux profile as the TPC but less range, shot speed, and shield damage (so its a lot harder to win a flux war). They're supposedly uncommon though so harder to justify thematically.

A HAG is a similar idea but its also a lot better at shield pressure and a lot of armor DPS, which is good for ships with fighter bays as they can pretty easily fit broadswords for shield pressure.

A Mark IX is probably the strongest forward option because of the kinetic damage. As such you can pair it with a typhoon reaper to hit shields hard and have finishing.

A Hammer Barrage is a decent idea as well. While not a Luddic Ship hammer barrages are"ubiquitous in the Sector pre-Collapse due to civilian applications discovered by asteroid miners" and so it makes sense for a Zenith to have some attached.

Any of these may need to be coupled with OP reductions simply because the ship has a massive shield and 2 fighter bays. If you take an Apogee and put a fixed weapon in the front you would have to remove the OP of the weapon in order to keep the ship at the same balance point. The fact that the Zenith does not is another thing that makes it particularly strong.

If any of these are done i would propose renaming the Zenith(the point when something is at its most powerful/successful which is appropriate now for this beast of a ship) to Perigee (the point in an orbit where the satellite is closest to the primary body)
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vaygr_Pilot

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Re: [0.9a] Stop Gap Measure - Ships for Vanilla
« Reply #144 on: September 13, 2019, 05:22:50 PM »

Looks noice!

Is this mod safe to add during a running campaign or does it require a new save?
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Hrothgar

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Re: [0.9a] Stop Gap Measure - Ships for Vanilla
« Reply #145 on: September 14, 2019, 12:37:18 AM »

There is chance that you can try to add this to existing campaign, but better be safe than sorry.

It works also on 9.1 too.
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MajorTheRed

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Re: [0.9a] Stop Gap Measure - Ships for Vanilla
« Reply #146 on: September 14, 2019, 09:29:19 AM »

I think you can add it, as it doesn't add content with specific mechanics. It will spawn the new weapons and new ships, but will not add the 3 star systems.
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WolfPriest

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Re: [0.9a] Stop Gap Measure - Ships for Vanilla
« Reply #147 on: September 15, 2019, 01:03:53 AM »

Haven't flown one yet but the Zenith should probably be toned down. TPC's are as good or better than anything the Apogee can reasonably fit in its large slot. Its got 2 fighter wings on top of it with 25 effective more OP (TPC doesn't have a fitting cost so that assumes a 20 OP large in the slot) and still has .6 shields.


No way that isn't the best combat cruiser in the game at 20 DP
Have you flown Contemptor yet? Get the skills and hull mods to extend the range and some anti-shield ballistics, and destroy capital ships 1-vs-1.
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Goumindong

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Re: [0.9a] Stop Gap Measure - Ships for Vanilla
« Reply #148 on: September 16, 2019, 12:29:37 AM »

I don't know what ship that is. But if its OP maybe it should be reduced in power as well?
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MajorTheRed

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Re: [0.9a] Stop Gap Measure - Ships for Vanilla
« Reply #149 on: September 16, 2019, 08:33:52 AM »

I'm not sure about it so far: some ships and weapons are meant to be real treasures of the past (archeotech) which can have specific benefit which may feel OP. The price to pay is that they are hard to find (BP), need proper facility to build them, and some drawbacks (flux management or manoeuvring most often).
Another point to consider is that both ships have a fixed foreward hardpoint. So far, AI is not great at using them (like the Dominator, Sunder, etc...) for precise targeting against anything smaller like a cruiser. On the other hand the TPC is not that great vs cruiser and capital IMHO. This means that this cruiser are mostly efficient in the hands of the player. And if the Contemptor need "skills and hull mods" to be a beast then I'm fine with that, as long it''s not OP from the start.

That said, @Goumindong, I check the stats of the Zenith and I was indeed a little bit carried away by my love for the Apogee from the start. I removed one small mount, the medium missile, reduced flux capacity, get the shield more in line with the original ship and finally reduce OP to 110. Hope it will make the ship more in line with the rest. Thanks for your feedback I really appreciate that
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