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[intrinsic_parity]

My first several play throughs in 0.8.1 were industry-skill-heavy play-throughs because I wanted to experience all the new content. Recently I've been trying a 0 industry skill play through focusing on combat and I've realized how much of the exploration content is locked behind or at least limited by industry skills. Exploration is amazingly fun, but only with tier 2 or 3 industry skills (you really need tier 3 to get at the volcanic worlds and research stations that are the best part). If I stop in an unexplored system in my current game, I tend to leave disappointed because I can't survey any of the planets (besides the barren ones) and any salvage I get is not rare, interesting, or valuable. The enjoyable part of exploration is finding those rare class IV and V worlds and cashing in, or finding a rare hull mod or weapon in a research station. All of that is locked behind skills. You might still get super lucky and find a high class world that you actually can survey without skills or get rare tech from destroying and salvaging a station, but the chances are so low that it is not profitable or sustainable to try.

I'm concerned that adding more campaign level content, particularly outposts, will compound this problem. In order to establish a good outpost, it seems like you will need decent surveying skills, and then I'm guessing there will be a bunch more outpost related skills. This will effectively mean that all the new content is locked behind or limited heavily by skills.

I really think separate skill points for campaign and combat skills would improve the game a lot. I know that having only one set of skills creates choices in how you want to specialize, but I think that you could still create interesting choices within the combat and campaign trees, without restricting access to content. You still choose how you spend your time in game, which affects what skills you get, but if you want to invest the time, you can have a strong combat build without missing out on fun and interesting content. I think it would also make the individual skill systems much easier to balance since you aren't trying to judge the relative strength of campaign skills vs combat skills.

I think an additional problem with the current skills system is that it is very easy for a new/inexperienced player to miss out on a lot of the game because they don't understand the skills system or don't know the skills well enough to access parts of the game. This will be especially compounded with outposts if they are implemented in the way I described above. You would have to unlock at least a significant number of the surveying and outpost skills to access all of that content. A new player might just never figure that out and not use or enjoy outposts because they don't have the skills to take advantage of them. Even in the current game, there are a lot 'noob trap' skills that aren't very good relative to the other skills. It's very easy to end up with a character build that misses all of the best skills and is consequentially much weaker and limited in terms of available content. I think an additional solution this would be an improved tiering system that puts similarly strong skills in the same tier to show the player their relative importance. This probably could be achieved in the current system to some extent, but I think more than 3 tiers might make it much more feasible.

[Megas]

I agree with this, because I am sick of piloting a weak ship because I need to take fleet skills to be optimal while officers get all of the fun stuff.

It is not just combat and campaign, but personal combat, fleetwide combat, and campaign, and there are not enough points (thanks to empty aptitudes) to get two of the aforementioned out of three, let alone three out of three.

Even if I do not care about campaign stuff, there are too few points to juggle personal and fleetwide.  Since most personal skills are weak and some replaceable with more Officer Management, skills tend to go toward fleet or campaign.

Fleet Logistics is one of the best skills in the game, with 3 being #3 perk behind Loadout Design 3 and Electronic Warfare 1.  The problem, it interferes with Damage Control.  Damage Control 1 is a dead level if player wants Fleet Logistics, but Fleet Logistics is a choice pick where all of the perks are useful and powerful.

Also, Electronic Warfare 1 is a "get this skill to not have a major handicap" against some recurring late-game fights, unlike Loadout Design 3 which players get to unlock more fun stuff.

P.S.  I really want Navigation, but I never take it due to lack of points.  Everything point I spend must have some use in combat or I do not want it.  Rather, I want it, but not enough to sacrifice combat power.  Also, some skills may blur campaign and combat.  Safety Procedures in Industry.  That might help with campaign (I think hazard mitigation and EB bonus at 3), but I only get it for the combat stuff, namely half malfunction threshold and half D-mod penalties.

[Alex]

Read this through; definitely food for thought.

Question: salvage without skills (i.e. scrap then scavenge) should yield roughly half the stuff you would get from a proper salvage operation. I'm wondering whether: 1) it *feels* worse than what it actually is, or 2) that's about how it feels, and that feels like too little, or 3) maybe there's a bug? Btw - you probably have to scavenge twice to get a good amount of stuff out.

Certainly the idea is not to lock the exploration content behind skills, but to have skills improve the amount of stuff you get.

[Megas]

@ Alex:  If I want to salvage abandoned stations properly, I need Salvaging 3 and a ton of Shepherds and salvage rigs (to get 100+% loot) to get plenty of rare loot unavailable elsewhere (or only with Tri-Tachyon commission).  If I go to an abandoned station with no skill, I can only destroy it and loot the debris, and I get nothing but junk, or maybe one rare item.  For me, the main reason to loot abandoned stations is to get rare items I cannot find elsewhere.  Before 0.8.1, looting such stations may have been the only way to find Converted Hangar.  Thankfully, Fighter Doctrine 2 fixed that.

Similarly, surveying requires skill before attempting most planets are possible.  Player with no skill or perhaps even just Surverying 1 may get lucky with one or two that are valuable, but player needs at least Surveying 2, probably 3, to survey more than a few planets.

[intrinsic_parity]

As megas said the part that feels limited is the exploration salvaging. Salvaging derelicts in the core system feels perfect, the only reason to take the salvaging skills for me is to get access to the rare tech and weapons in stations and caches. This is entirely locked behind skills. Without this and the cash from surveying (which requires high surveying skills to be profitable) the entire exploration game doesn't work. There's no point in exploring if all the money and loot is unavailable. You will just spend all your fuel and supplies wandering around looking for the one planet you can actually survey. Destroyed stations seem to almost never give any loot that isn't easily obtainable with a commission. If they do drop the highest tier of loot, it is at a rate that is far to low to be worthwhile, considering they also drop less loot. For reference, the loot items I really want are tachyon lance, mjolnir, ITU, advanced optics, needlers of any size, and valuable cores. These are the items that are very difficult to find in markets (especially the hull mods). There are plenty of other items that I am happy to find, but in general I can find them in other places (in the case of needlers, I just never have enough). For me, the main benefit of exploration is finding these rare items, loot is actually not worth very much in general, so getting more loot is mostly irrelevant for me. Surveying is the main source of income for exploration which is also skill locked.

[Alex]

Hmm - so this sounds like a possible bug as far as the rate at which the rare stuff is dropped, since it doesn't sound like either of you are getting anything like half of the full-skill amounts. Made a note to take a look.

[Megas]

Can a player with max Salvaging loot abandoned stations without the rigs?  If so, why bother?  Since those stations are rare, if a player intends to loot such stations, it is best to bring all of the rigs to maximize salvage bonus and get the most items.

As for Salvaging, level 1 is useless.  It enables looting things that only give more junk player can easily find elsewhere.  Mining stations require level 2, and they can drop a rare item or two.  The piñata research stations, the only stations that really matter, require level 3.

[Megas]

Speaking of loot, I wished that one Industry 3 perk did not change from +10% all loot to +50% fuel.  I could not care less about fuel if I am farming enemy fleets in populated systems (or Remnant systems close to core worlds), but I care more about supplies and weapons.  I am sure the change was for traveling, but I would simply bring another tanker loaded with fuel if I am that concerned.  I can always buy and bring more fuel.  I cannot always buy another rare item.

[intrinsic_parity]

Hmm - so this sounds like a possible bug as far as the rate at which the rare stuff is dropped, since it doesn't sound like either of you are getting anything like half of the full-skill amounts. Made a note to take a look.

Even with industry skills, you may have to loot many stations before finding the really top tier loot that you want. I think it's more just a relatively low chance of getting the good loot cut in half again. While looting stations with no skills, I still get some ok loot, like maulers or HVD or maybe a heavy blaster or something, but it's not worth spending all the supplies and fuel to search for stations when you could just take a commission and buy the same stuff at any military market. It's about sustainability really. With surveying and salvaging skills, exploration pays for itself so wandering around looking for cool things is profitable, but without the skills, you will just run out of supplies and fuel long before you find enough stuff to justify the expedition. Without skills, every expedition outside of core space has to have a specific purpose/mission that will pay for it. With skills, the expedition pays for itself and any additional missions are just a little extra. You can afford to check out that cool cluster of system over there as you will probably salvage enough supplies and fuel from them to continue on afterwards. 

Also, is the drop rate of loot by quality affected by skills at all? I.e. do skills make good loot more likely to drop or do they just affect the overall rate of all drops.

[FooF]

I'm going to agree with the OP, in general. The salvage/surveying stuff that Megas et al. experienced has also been my experience.

The idea of splitting the skill tree into combat and campaign has been floated before. To a certain degree, forcing the player into spending points in combat and campaign abilities is a bit of step backwards but the general sentiment that "I'm spending way too many points on campaign/fleet abilities and my flagship suffers" rings true to me. Additional campaign features will likely exacerbate the problem, as the OP mentions.

I don't want to see another skill tree re-work (it seems like a lot of work!) but, along with aptitude points, there seems to be a lot of discussion regarding "fixing" it. I still think combat leading to combat points to spend and campaign tasks leading to campaign points to spend is the logical way to go. Likewise, salvage and exploration could have their own leveling paths, respectively. It simply rewards the player for what they're already doing and doesn't lock anything behind skills, per se. However, may wiser heads prevail.

[Reth]

I still think combat leading to combat points to spend and campaign tasks leading to campaign points to spend is the logical way to go. Likewise, salvage and exploration could have their own leveling paths, respectively. It simply rewards the player for what they're already doing and doesn't lock anything behind skills, per se.

This sounds like a good idea! Similar to e.g. Skyrim you could e.g. slowly level up "Combat endurance" by by flying a ship over it's peak time, "fighter doctrine" by taking fighter losses (fleetwide) etc. It also makes more sense that you get better by doing things rather than getting to rank 3 in missile specialisation without ever firing a missile.

[Tartiflette]

Hmm - so this sounds like a possible bug as far as the rate at which the rare stuff is dropped, since it doesn't sound like either of you are getting anything like half of the full-skill amounts. Made a note to take a look.

That was fairly easy to test with the console:

Research Station debris salvage without skills or Rigs (twice):


Research Station debris salvage without skills but with 4 Rigs (twice):



Research Station debris salvage with skills but no Rigs (twice):


Research Station debris salvage with skills and 4 Rigs (twice):



Research Station proper salvage with skills but without Rigs:


Research Station proper salvage with skills and 4 Rigs:


I think we can safely say that there is no point salvaging without skills right now. Also the rigs are useless without skills since they are capped at 0%.

[Alex]

Great point about rigs, wasn't considering that. Will definitely make some adjustments here.

[Megas]

Tartiflette's pics are much like what I get when I loot stations.  If I want to loot research stations (with a skilled character), bringing rigs (or whatever to max bonus loot percent) are a must.  Without rigs, loot is okay but not great.  With rigs, it is a jackpot.  Rigs are useless to unskilled characters due to the 0% cap.

P.S.  Please rollback the old perk with +10% all loot instead of +50% fuel.  Bigger jackpot with more useful loot is always nice.

[MajorTheRed]

Just wanted to give my opinions, as I don't agree with some considerations on skills. I understand the point of Megas, but he has a really different way to play the game than me.
The way I play I rarely go for huge bounties whose difficulty curve is too steep once you fight deserters. I mostly play slavage/exploration games, or commissioned wars against factions.

When playing commissioned wars, I still put one point in salvage skill just "in case". Indeed in case of trouble you can still salvage a derelict probe to get some fuel/supplies. As a side note, I like the +50% perk. It challenges the Navigation 2 perks and I think this is the goal of the skill system : make choices. If a perk is just insanly good or bad, there is no choice intended in your character development. A good example, and I agree with Megas, is Fleet Logistics. Its so insanely great that this is a no-brain choice.

I agree with the salvage rig problem without salvage skills. An alternative could be that rig can provide a salvage cap bonus equal to halve its salvage rating. This means that someone with no skill i salvage but with 4 rigs (which is potentially an investment of time and money to find them) can still salvage a mining station. Similar system can also apply to Surveying, even if you can always find class 5 planets without skills in surveying.