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Author Topic: Raiding, Attacking, Invading, Destruction  (Read 3190 times)

xenoargh

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Raiding, Attacking, Invading, Destruction
« on: September 20, 2017, 12:15:43 PM »

Let's talk a little more about the implications of Outposts and Colonies and 4X play here, in terms of new play opportunities.


Raiding  

Players, pirates and privateers might all want to engage in raids of planets, to gain resources and to do some minor damage to enemy economies.  Gameplay, ideally, would have players picking a location on the planet to raid, with some information about population density and risk; depending on whether they're raiding a well-defended location like a city or a military base or somewhere sparsely-inhabited, their risks, treasure-haul and defenses met might vary considerably.  For example, it's probably very safe to raid the middle of nowhere, but you'll be lucky to pick up a few Supplies for your trouble; raiding a small community might gain you a lot more treasure, but you'll probably get ID'd and you'll have to fight, etc., etc.

The whole point of Raids is to gain treasure; they should do a little damage to Stability (if that remains a thing) and minor resource damage, but that's probably all.

There should be a Skill for Raiding, generally covering:

A.  How stealthy you are, i.e., how likely you are to get ID'd and intercepted.
B.  How much loot you get.
C.  How much Stability loss you inflict... if you choose.  I think that should be a choice; a good, clean Raid to gain resources is probably not very damaging; a deliberate effort to do some collateral damage on the way out is more important.  Raiding a location repeatedly ought to create serious Stability problems, but it should take a lot longer than Attacking (see next).

Attacking

An Attack is very different from a Raid.  Raids are primarily about gathering resources; Attacks are about destroying enemy assets and seriously disrupting Stability.  Attacks have a specific objective; perhaps it's to destroy a facility, kill population, engage the local defences, etc., etc.  If the Attack is successful, the direct damage is done and Stability is impacted pretty sharply.

However, given that Attacks are almost always going to be directed at major locations, they're very dangerous and risky, and they won't give the player much loot, if any, because they're trying to get in, do damage and leave.  So Pirates generally don't bother and the player probably won't until they're in an interstellar war... either because they have founded a Faction or because they've taken a Mission (these should pay well, since they should be very dangerous indeed).

Invading  

Invading a location ought to be very difficult.  Essentially, your chances of pulling it off with anything less than overwhelming force and a lot of time should be nil unless you've degraded the location's Stability quite a bit.  It shouldn't be easy or fast, especially with Markets over size 4 or so.

Invasions, if successful, give the player captured equipment, goods, tech and a population that, while initially hostile, might become accepting of the player's government over time.

Generally speaking players should not get to participate in Invasions until they have founded a Faction; this is strategic-level warfare.  Invasions should start with the "space phase", where the location's existing defenses attempt to defeat the player's fleet; if that doesn't work out, then the player can then begin the "ground phase", where they're going to have to engage the ground defenses at the key sites.  Once those are defeated, the invasion begins, and then it's mainly a matter of time, resources, etc... while not letting the enemy break the siege.   Invasions should be pretty rare, take a long time to pull off, and take even longer to convert the population to friendly (i.e., get Stability under control).


Destruction  

This needs to be talked about, I think, since the lore's got Planet Killers in it.

1.  Destruction should involve a MacGuffin that is pretty fragile, can't be deployed quickly, etc., etc., so that it's not completely preferable to Invasion, even for blood-thirsty players.  It really can't just be, "you walked in with nukes, everybody died, great, this planet's yours" or it'll be a little too tempting to just glass everything, especially once you have all the Tech you wanted (see:  Stellar Converter).

2.  Destruction should be, to put it mildly, "frowned upon" by all Factions (heck, even the Pirates).  I don't think that using one should be without pretty important diplomatic consequences; even the staunchest allies should be effected; you've just killed thousands to billions of people and have perhaps wiped out precious archeotech that cannot be replaced; it really shouldn't be a commonly-used option, more of an act of desperation.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 12:26:51 PM by xenoargh »
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TrashMan

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Re: Raiding, Attacking, Invading, Destruction
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2017, 03:59:26 AM »

Quote
Generally speaking players should not get to participate in Invasions until they have founded a Faction

I always found a player-funded faction to be exceptionally silly in a galactic strategy scenario.

A guy with a few ships (totaling a few thousand men) conquering an entire planet?

If you ask me, player should stick with joining existing factions
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Megas

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Re: Raiding, Attacking, Invading, Destruction
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2017, 04:07:13 AM »

I do not want to join a faction and be nothing more than paperboy sent to do menial tasks (i.e., kill people or run food) as the only option, as done up to now.

I want to make my faction!  Game can last decades if the player wants (to grind that long), he certainly has time to build a new nation if he wants.

Hopefully, part of the point of outposts is the player can build the infrastructure he needs to do strategic level stuff, like destroy and remove all factions from the map!
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Thaago

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Re: Raiding, Attacking, Invading, Destruction
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2017, 10:24:34 AM »

Quote
Generally speaking players should not get to participate in Invasions until they have founded a Faction

I always found a player-funded faction to be exceptionally silly in a galactic strategy scenario.

A guy with a few ships (totaling a few thousand men) conquering an entire planet?

If you ask me, player should stick with joining existing factions

Luckily for us, its actually in the game lore for the player to take over planets and stations: the Sindrian Dictat is exactly that! Andrada had an entire Hegemony battlefleet with thousands of loyal soldiers, which the player can also amass by the endgame.

In terms of a few ships and thousands of troops conquering a planet, it depends a lot on cultural norms. A planet with its defenses and fleets down is at the complete mercy of an orbiting fleet. Some cultures might fight to the last citizen and in that case yeah, conquering a planet in the millions is going to be impossible without killing most of them or your own army of hundreds of thousands. At the other end of the spectrum are cultures that are going to negotiate a surrender where the leaders essentially 'bend the knee' to the player, maintaining a certain amount of privileged and power (and not being murdered) in exchange for letting you control it.

In the ancient world, both Romans and Mongols had a lot of expansion via both methods (complete murder vs surrender) and were not cruel to those who surrendered (the Romans gave property rights, rights of intermarriage, and paths to citizenship to those cities that surrendered without a fight. They also didn't pillage the cities. They did however require the cities to contribute a large number of troops to be mixed into the legions, but only gave a pittance of the spoils of war back to the cities.).

I think it would be very interesting if both the player reputation and the local stability/conditions were important for invasions. A discontent population might readily welcome player control, should they have prosperous colonies and not be in the habit of murdering everything.
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xenoargh

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Re: Raiding, Attacking, Invading, Destruction
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2017, 11:25:16 AM »

I agree with the above vision of invasions.  I just want to note here that, eventually, in my copious free time, I'll make a mock UI for what I'd really like (think the Exploration / Mining system from Star Control 2's mining system to pick a location to attack / raid / whatever).
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TrashMan

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Re: Raiding, Attacking, Invading, Destruction
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2017, 11:46:02 AM »

Luckily for us, its actually in the game lore for the player to take over planets and stations: the Sindrian Dictat is exactly that! Andrada had an entire Hegemony battlefleet with thousands of loyal soldiers, which the player can also amass by the endgame.

In terms of a few ships and thousands of troops conquering a planet, it depends a lot on cultural norms. A planet with its defenses and fleets down is at the complete mercy of an orbiting fleet. Some cultures might fight to the last citizen and in that case yeah, conquering a planet in the millions is going to be impossible without killing most of them or your own army of hundreds of thousands. At the other end of the spectrum are cultures that are going to negotiate a surrender where the leaders essentially 'bend the knee' to the player, maintaining a certain amount of privileged and power (and not being murdered) in exchange for letting you control it.

While that is true, the problem is that RL has no arbitrary flee limit and any faction whose planet you attack is going to want it back.
And they're going to have a LOT more men, more ship, more resources.
Crafting any kind of power base would be (and should be) nigh impossible.

Granted, SS is already unrealistic with factions giving their biggest and most advanced ship to mercenaries.
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Sooner535

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Re: Raiding, Attacking, Invading, Destruction
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2017, 02:01:02 AM »

Perhaps the best way to do it is to give us a way for it this way:

So let's say I join the hegemony and they fight the tri tachyon forces, I end up being a instrumental part in capturing a tri planet and my reward? I am set up as governor of the new planet! I decide to assign an officer to start spreading disdain on the planet for hegemony rule, and that I would rule better (which the first part would be easy since the planet already hates heg forces) so that I can rebel and take the planet under my rule. However the next system over has a npc admiral I have fought beside since joining the hegemony and we are close, I decide to offer her a high ranking position in my faction in exchange for leaving the hegemony, she accepts (she likes me a ton and is a very greedy individual who lusts for power) I rebel and boom! I now have 2 planets under my control and have resources enough to start taking small stations.

I think this would:
1. Give reasons to have non combat officers
2. Give a reason to raise approval or relations with NPCs
3. Let the player get into the politics of the game
4. Allow some expanding of the non combat section of the game

Just a thought on the matter
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