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[Kanil]

@ Kanil: Remember that distance is a significant factor.

I can't say for sure, but it looks a lot like the reach of your typical outpost will be measured in no more than a handful of light years, and distance is equally important to size. Theoretically you can overcome this with lots of waystations, but that's probably going to get pretty expensive.

You'd have highly specialized markets if they could all be guaranteed to reach each other, sure. But you'd need to be pretty damn lucky with your exploration, since I'm guessing production is capped by the natural features you find. And even now the highest ore systems tend to be separate from the most habitable (i.e. food-producing) systems.

"It's not a problem if you don't get lucky" is a somewhat unsatisfying answer. An outpost will probably be centered on the most desirable location I've found, which will of course be desirable because it's got a lot of good stuff in a small area. Given that there's several different resources, it doesn't seem that unlikely that you'll have a planet "good" at something be completely obsoleted by a single world that's "great" at the thing instead.

[Alex]

My biggest concern is that it probably results in highly specialized markets -- if your 8 food world can feed all your other worlds, then there's no real reason to bother develop food on a 7 food world. "Our planet's really quite fertile and capable of growing a lot of food, but we don't bother because there's a slightly better planet next star over."

Hmm, that's a good point - if that becomes a real issue, could perhaps give a slight stability bonus for using local production.

One question about it, though: In one example Jangala produces 8 Organics, but consumes and exports only 6. So there are 2 organics freely available. Are these the 2 missing from logarithmic 8, so that Jangala actually only exports and uses ~1% of its organics? That seems as if it would absolutely crash prices.
Or maybe, if the 8 doesn't represent production but "production scaling potential", it would help to write  "Up to 8 produced by mining" or "8 can be produced by mining" or something.

So, yeah, the logarithmic thing is almost entirely conceptual - maybe I shouldn't emphasize it as much, to me it's just a way to make it all "make sense", but there are many ways to do that.

In terms of gameplay, the scale of these things is linear or close to it, so the 2 "extra" organics don't have a huge impact on the price, which matches what you'd expect just looking at it.

Isn't that true for outposts, too? Once you found the ideal planet with great market connections in the core worlds you'd want to settle on it every time, no? Maybe some randomness on the unsettled core world planets would help.

There actually is some - their conditions are randomly generated. Plus, I think there'll be some things in place that prevent you from, say, establishing an outpost on the gas giant Coatl is near, etc - seems like factions would probably be a bit touchy about independent outposts springing up in their space.

[FooF]

I'm really liking where this is going.

I didn't see this elsewhere:

How will the player's cargo get "translated" into these new single-digit market abstractions? If I bring 1000 units of [commodity] to market, will it affect the market supply/demand or are the abstractions simply driving prices and are independent of actual quantities being traded? Or is the cargo system being abstracted, as well?

[TauKinth]

Is there any chance of getting something that lets you map the top planets you have scanned? That way you could find the best place to set up with the closest and highest production planets for each resource within a reasonable distance. It would be useful for people who want to setup self sufficient colony groups.

P.S. When 0.8 first came out I spent 11 days on a save(it came out at the perfect time for me) and TL:DR I ended up with 50mil+ cr and had nothing to sink money into, please tell me these colonies can get really expensive for fun and profit.

also I had 5 apogees, I like apogees... don't judge.

[Althaea]

"It's not a problem if you don't get lucky" is a somewhat unsatisfying answer. An outpost will probably be centered on the most desirable location I've found, which will of course be desirable because it's got a lot of good stuff in a small area. Given that there's several different resources, it doesn't seem that unlikely that you'll have a planet "good" at something be completely obsoleted by a single world that's "great" at the thing instead.

It may be (and in fact it seems quite likely given Alex' response) that I misunderstood something, since I thought physical proximity would be an equally important factor to the sheer scale of demand - otherwise the core's economy will become even more thoroughly dominated by the big markets than it already is. That might be how it turns out given that your concern was acknowledged.

In any case, I would certainly expect highly specialized outposts working together to be optimal. That's largely how modern economics works, after all. The natural tradeoff is that the whole structure becomes a lot more vulnerable. Having all your food supplied by one really efficient planet is great and all, until someone decides to drop a planetkiller on it so you're forced to buy their cabbages.

[Darloth]

Having local production of something you're importing from somewhere else is a very useful uninterruptible backup, though.

Even if you need 8 food, it's far better to be producing 7 food and having a minor shortfall (even if the shortfall is pseudo-logarithmic, so it's still a big deal) than it is to have been importing 8 food and now be importing 0 food.

Something that does make it a little weird is that you won't get knock-on effects, since each market can supply an infinite number of markets.  If you were importing 8 and exporting 7, and then suddenly go on to have a food shortfall...  you can still export food to someone further away who is entirely dependent on that 7?

That seems odd, since you literally do not have enough food to feed yourself, but apparently can still divert some to someplace else.

It could be special-cased of course, perhaps with something as simple as not exporting at all if local demand can't be met with imports, but it's the only oddity I can see.

Overall, I really like this system.

Will we be getting more reliable view of this information from other star systems without attempting to build an outpost? It's the sort of info that would make trading a lot more plausible!

[Alex]

How will the player's cargo get "translated" into these new single-digit market abstractions? If I bring 1000 units of [commodity] to market, will it affect the market supply/demand or are the abstractions simply driving prices and are independent of actual quantities being traded? Or is the cargo system being abstracted, as well?

This is a part that could probably use a bit more "being made clear to the player" work, but how it works is like this:

There's a quantity for each commodity (internally called "econUnit"), that maps how many cargo units of it translate into one economy unit. (This was actually there in the previous version of the economy; I think it was used to figure out how many icons to display.)

If a player sells the commodity to a market, its availability will increase by (quantity sold / econUnit) for a month. Buying will do the opposite, i.e. you can cause a month-long shortage by buying stuff up.

Also, the first 3 economy units of a commodity - that is, if 0 units are available - only take one econUnit's worth of cargo; after that it's 1 econUnit's worth per economy unit. If that makes sense.

The transaction widget - where it shows the current transaction, the tariffs, etc - shows a group of icons, either green or red outlined, that indicate when what you're buying/selling will impact economic availability, and there's a tooltip there.

Is there any chance of getting something that lets you map the top planets you have scanned? That way you could find the best place to set up with the closest and highest production planets for each resource within a reasonable distance. It would be useful for people who want to setup self sufficient colony groups.

The Planet subtab in the Intel tab lets you sort stuff, but, right, I think I see what you're asking - a way to visualize that data. My gut feeling is that there won't be so many planets that this will be a problem, but I'll definitely keep an eye on it. Another aspect is that I'd expect someone to put up one outpost somewhere, build it up, then add another one, and so on - so it wouldn't necessarily be a situation where you're trying to plan out everythnig at the same time.

P.S. When 0.8 first came out I spent 11 days on a save(it came out at the perfect time for me) and TL:DR I ended up with 50mil+ cr and had nothing to sink money into, please tell me these colonies can get really expensive for fun and profit.

I didn't really get into it in this blog post, but yeah, there would ideally be lots of things to throw money at. I'd also like to cut down some of the more out-of-control revenues streams.

also I had 5 apogees, I like apogees... don't judge.

Perfect, best scanning range w/o going up to capitals

That seems odd, since you literally do not have enough food to feed yourself, but apparently can still divert some to someplace else.

Hmm, that doesn't seem all that stange to me. If the other destination is in your faction, you could see why you'd want to share whatever food is available. If it's out-of-faction, the companies involved (below your level) are making profit-based decisions, etc.

Overall, I really like this system.

Cool, thank you!

Will we be getting more reliable view of this information from other star systems without attempting to build an outpost? It's the sort of info that would make trading a lot more plausible!

I'd like to work a "nearby markets" into the market info screen somewhere.

[Thaago]

This looks very cool. The logarithmic supply/demand makes a certain amount of sense and is a welcome abstraction. Given that supply is the most important factor in determining trade routes, it seems that the production unit is both raw availability and also the efficiency of scaling all rolled into one metric.

It seems that for a planet to get trade income, it really needs to be 'the best', and the biggest factor is the amount it can supply. Is there room for the player to compete? Also, space globalism! Sectorism?

You've mentioned that the main factions may set up the occasional outpost out beyond the core worlds. Will they also maintain waystations to connect to that (if waystations are a thing)? And could the player arrange for, say, an accident to happen to those waystations? Or gain access through good relations?

On granting autonomy: I see this as a great way of making 'client' colonies. Find a couple of good worlds that will be 'the best' suppliers, and keep those for yourself. Establish a whole bunch of smaller colonies around that don't have the ability to compete and grant them autonomy. Removes the upkeep from you, but you still get the profits from supplying them. Is this a good thing? Bad thing? Will those colonies even survive?

[DatonKallandor]

If the player is commissioned, do his bases count as in-faction?

[heskey30]

If you found a great planet out in the sector somewhere and planned to colonize it, would there be any reason not to also sell that survey data?

[Alex]

It seems that for a planet to get trade income, it really needs to be 'the best', and the biggest factor is the amount it can supply. Is there room for the player to compete? Also, space globalism! Sectorism?

Honestly, I don't 100% know how it'll play out. I *think* that so long as there are enough ways to bump off the competition, or perhaps some other ways to make your goods more desirable (bribes?), then it would work. It's also going to depend on what the initial Sector economy looks like - right now, I'm thinking that it may be a good idea to have some slight under-supply in numerous areas, to give the player some easy ways to get in.

As far as being the biggest, that's not necessary if you're supplying a smaller market, say one that has demand for 3 food - anyone producing over 3 food won't have an advantage over you, since 3 meets demand entirely, it falls back to the other rules - "in faction?" and "higher stability?". A larger food producer would be more difficult to disrupt down to where it can't provide 3 food, of course, but plain old piracy could take the supply down by reducing how much gets food gets shipped.

Another option is that independent markets may not prefer in-faction trade, giving the player some destinations that don't favor via in-faction status, meaning they have to compete on stability, which is probably easier.

You've mentioned that the main factions may set up the occasional outpost out beyond the core worlds. Will they also maintain waystations to connect to that (if waystations are a thing)? And could the player arrange for, say, an accident to happen to those waystations? Or gain access through good relations?

Maybe? Just not enough info right now to say.

On granting autonomy: I see this as a great way of making 'client' colonies. Find a couple of good worlds that will be 'the best' suppliers, and keep those for yourself. Establish a whole bunch of smaller colonies around that don't have the ability to compete and grant them autonomy. Removes the upkeep from you, but you still get the profits from supplying them. Is this a good thing? Bad thing? Will those colonies even survive?

Hmm, that actually sounds like a problem case. I'd expect exports to semi-autonomous markets would not give you income, otherwise you're incentivized to make a ton of them just to farm cash, and that doesn't feel right.

If the player is commissioned, do his bases count as in-faction?

Great question! Seems like lots of things around this could play into commissions (perhaps even eventual governorship of a faction's world?), but we'll have to see. Can't answer that right now because I don't actually know.

If you found a great planet out in the sector somewhere and planned to colonize it, would there be any reason not to also sell that survey data?

I wouldn't count on survey data existing in the same form as it does now, or potentially even existing at all. It was a stopgap until the real reason for surveying came around. Not saying that I'm planning to remove it, though - just not entirely decided on how it'll end up.

[MattD]

I bought Starsector as of 0.8.1a a few months ago--and it's been fantastic, thank you Alex and all involved. So a few comments from a relatively new player:

1. I've largely avoided trying to understand the current economy in the game because I found the UI difficult, so I both appreciate your aside about the role of UI in the design of mechanics, and am happy to say that I find these screens to be an enormous improvement. I wouldn't quite call them intuitive, but I can say that after looking at them for a while today, I do feel like they now make sense to me and would work well; and I'm sure playing the game with them would further enhance that. My one thought here: given that every faction seems to have its own color, and that red typically means pirate faction/illegal, did you consider having goods supplied by a faction outlined in the color of that faction in the Commodities list for the market, and having unmet demand be dimmed; rather than dim meaning imported and red-outlined meaning unmet demand, as you have it now?

2. Regarding the pseudo-logarithmic conception of market size: for whatever it's worth, I'm having more success understanding it myself if I think of it as being not only about production scalability but also about commerce infrastructure and facilities. If a market just physically can't support large freighters docking and loading on a regular basis, for example, then it makes some sense that the market could be able to support more smaller freighters (thus allowing exports to more markets of the same smaller size), but wouldn't be able to efficiently supply any markets of a larger scale. Kind of. Maybe.

3. A thought on terminology: with "market size," sequential numbers plus the word "size" tends to imply a linear scale, I think. Whereas if it was something like "Market Class" or "Tier n Market" that might help put people in the right conceptual frame of mind, because "class" and "tier" are more often understood to represent non-linear categories. (Indeed "market category" would work, although the word length of "category" makes the UI more difficult.)

4. Regarding outpost fleets: as I've been playing, I have been inexorably accumulating a large number of ships in storage. It's past the point of them being a safety net in case my active fleet is wiped out; there just hasn't been any compelling reason to either scrap them or sell them, and many have sentimental value/memories. So while I can understand it being outside the core areas of the game, I'll just say that it would be very nice in terms of both player asset utilization and role-playing to be able to assign these currently extraneous stored ships to an outpost as part of its fleet so that they can continue to be of service, rather than the "immersion eyesore" they currently are.

Anyway, thanks for keeping us in the loop, very excited to see what the future brings!

[Techhead]

On granting autonomy: I see this as a great way of making 'client' colonies. Find a couple of good worlds that will be 'the best' suppliers, and keep those for yourself. Establish a whole bunch of smaller colonies around that don't have the ability to compete and grant them autonomy. Removes the upkeep from you, but you still get the profits from supplying them. Is this a good thing? Bad thing? Will those colonies even survive?

Hmm, that actually sounds like a problem case. I'd expect exports to semi-autonomous markets would not give you income, otherwise you're incentivized to make a ton of them just to farm cash, and that doesn't feel right.

My instinct regarding this is thinking about what would naturally happen to markets that don't generate a net profit or have someone to pay their upkeep. They collapse.

[Midnight Kitsune]

I hope bounty hunting isn't one of the cash flow nerfs that we are going to get. It took a big (too be to me) hit with the procedural content addition and I would hate to see combat disincentivized even more than it has been

[Deeplurker]

Seems like a nice move, fleshing out what I think is one of the last core mechanics needing updating. (What's left - Pirates, faction wars?) Helps pirates survive a believable minute - salvaging and smuggling offset the fact their fleets get demolished over and over.

Questions:

• How will the colonies be set up: colony ship (O-Game), colony structure in cargo (X-Series), just dump people and supplies on a planet and wish them luck?
  
• Will colonies/outposts/waystations/planets be destructible? Able to be abandoned? Conquerable? Tradeable?
  
• Will there be any pirate bribery to remotely obstruct/destroy competing trade fleets (especially without being held responsible)?
  
• Any thoughts on how faction commission works in relation to trade optimization? Will factions who declare war avoid your commissioned outpost, or is it possible they'd focus on your assets exclusively? Plans for semi/permanent faction joining?
  
• Will you allow factions to (try to) colonize in REDACTED space, or will there be a 'safety factor' when the factions try to expand?
  
• How will taxes work in relation to this? Will you still be the one paying the transaction tax to the other faction, whether buying or selling? Can you set local tax rates?