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Author Topic: Sooo... Capital ships?  (Read 17397 times)

Megas

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Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2017, 07:30:26 AM »

Yes, short-ranged weapons is a reason why Odyssey hurts so much.  Even with its old 0.8 shields, it could not take much of a beating.  Now with 1.0 shields, it loses the flux war before it can fight back.  It could compensate for this with Hardened Shields or max capacitors like Conquest can, but unlike Conquest, Odyssey has a severe OP shortage like pre-0.8 Hammerhead, and it cannot afford everything it needs, much less wants.

As an alternative to raising Odyssey's OP, make Expanded Deck Crew hullmod built-in.  If Odyssey wants to rely on fighters, this hullmod is required, and it is expensive.  Expanded Deck Crew is the ITU for carriers.  (This assumes Odyssey continues to cost as much as a battleship.)

As for speed and fuel use, Odyssey is already the Falcon of capitals in terms of speed and fuel use, but so is Conquest, and Conquest can actually duel a battleship and win (although it struggles against Paragon, admittedly).

@ FooF:  Fighters could be an alternative to long-range weapons, but a problem with that is Legion not only has four wings of fighters, but also enough OP (barely), durability, and firepower to duel another capital and win.  Odyssey only has two wings of fighters, along with awful durability and sub-par energy-based firepower.  Even Legion is a better small ship sweeper than Odyssey because it has twice as many fighters.  If frigates can outrun Medusa, and most destroyers and cruisers are at or faster than 80 speed (due to being at 80+ speed or mobility system spam raising average speed higher than normal top), how can Odyssey hunt and kill small stuff other than send fighters at them (especially given the AI's favorite tactics)?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 07:49:51 AM by Megas »
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zeno

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Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
« Reply #31 on: August 11, 2017, 01:06:47 PM »

What about the Odyssey's non-combat stats?  According to the devblog that introduced it, the Odyssey was originally envisioned to be an exploration ship.

Quote
Unlike the Paragon, the Odyssey is well-equipped for long-range exploration. It can carry a respectable amount of cargo, has lots of hangar capacity for fighters to tag along, and consumes a reasonable amount of fuel for a capital ship. It requires a bit more care in battle, but overall makes an excellent flagship, especially for a player focused on skills that improve the performance of their ship.

Seems to me like its design intent was to be a subpar combat ship to begin with. Though maybe through multiple patches its logistical advantages which it was balanced around have become either irrelevant, or been trivialized.  It only has 100 more cargo compared to other combat capitals, and the fuel cap advantage is not enough to matter when tankers are present.

If we give it 600+ cargo and 500+ fuel, then threw in hi-res sensors, it could become an attractive upgrade for the Apogee (which is kind of in a sorry state).  I'd certainly use it as a flagship in exploratory fleets, where tip-top combat capabilities are not as critical, and the capital-ship tier cost can be justified by having less haulers/tankers and still maintain a functional fleet.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 01:16:44 PM by zeno »
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FreedomFighter

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Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2017, 01:23:48 PM »

Maybe since the other aspect of the game aside from combat isn't main focus or well develop/implement right now. A lot of exploration/non-combat vessel are disappointing to use. I'm sure the Apogee, and Odyssey going to has their use once Alex finalize the planetary survey, and outpost stuff. Those exploration capital would be a bit attractive if it give you a fleet wide bonus that help you with long range travel or better sensor. The high resolution sensor isn't that great add-on imo. The range increase is miniscule. Better yet, if it help you with supplie/fuel consumption, CR deployment, and recovering or repairing.
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Megas

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Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
« Reply #33 on: August 11, 2017, 02:48:42 PM »

What about the Odyssey's non-combat stats?  According to the devblog that introduced it, the Odyssey was originally envisioned to be an exploration ship.
It is barely better than other capitals at hauling, but Odyssey is still a pig and as or more expensive to use than other capitals.  You want to have a ship as strong as the current Odyssey yet friendly to logistics?  Bring a cruiser instead, it eats much less than a capital and can fight just as well.

Apogee is not a good (read: not top-tier) combatant anymore.  It lost its sensor drones system (which added range and lets Apogee snipe more), and combined with AI's newfound cowardice, Apogee cannot force or dictate fights like it used to.  Apogee used to be the top high-tech line ship (despite lore saying it is an explorer) among low-tech's Dominator and midline's Eagle (while Aurora was torpedo boat pre-0.72 and plain joke-tier rubbish in 0.72).  Apogee is a decent high-tech Mule, but players do not want hybrids after early or mid-game once they can afford to optimize their fleet and control battles.  If player's fleet becomes powerful enough to win nearly any fight, why bother with hybrids when dedicated combat ships kill everyone efficiently and the civilians that never see combat haul everything?

If Odyssey became a capital Apogee, and it only has cruiser-level combat stats and destroyer to cruiser non-combat stats, it would be worthless as a combatant.  Too weak to fight capitals and too slow to destroy most sub-capital ships (because most of the best combat sub-capitals having an average speed of 80 or more, including bonuses from mobility systems).  Unless its cargo stats rival Atlas and Prometheus, it would not be a good hauler either.  600 cargo would not be enough; much rather bring a Colossus instead.  Odyssey would probably need about 1000+ for both cargo and fuel for me to consider using it as an all-purpose ship.  I just want Odyssey to become a high-tech Legion, or at least regain what little combat prowess it used to have.  Currently, Odyssey is the new 0.72 era Aurora - overpriced, underpowered, and good-for-nothing.

Conquest used to be rubbish, but +200 to both armor and hull, along with its built-in Heavy Ballistic Integration to afford heavy weapons, (and weakening of skills that made some ships like Onslaught unstoppable,) made it significantly better.  Today, a properly outfitted Conquest can duel an Onslaught and have a good chance of winning.  Similarly outfitted Conquest will crush an Odyssey about as easily as Onslaught can.  However, Conquest without Gauss Cannons will struggle against Paragon.  Remember that Conquest is merely a "battlecruiser", just like Odyssey, although I would consider current Conquest at the cusp of fast battleship.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 02:51:13 PM by Megas »
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Megas

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Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2017, 06:43:10 AM »

The Odyssey's speed isn't enough to save it from being pummeled, which nearly every other high-tech ship can do.
This would be less of a problem if Odyssey's shields were decent.  If Odyssey could take some hits while closing in, pop out a few shots, then back off, it would be okay.  0.8 shields were not great, but Odyssey could absorb a few hits.  Now, with 1.0 shields, Odyssey absorb hits poorly, and it does not have the OP to afford Hardened Shields or capacitors to offset that without sacrificing other things it desperately needs too, like critical hullmods and two effective fighter wings.  (I leave missiles empty, and have no capacitors, but still do not have enough OP to max vents.)

If my Odyssey does not use beams, what happens is Odyssey approaches enemy capital (with superior shot range and probably kinetics), Odyssey takes hits on shields and Odyssey's flux is too high.  Either it backs off (without firing a shot) to vent excessive flux or it lowers shields and trades hits with enemy... which is a bad trade since the enemy capital has better durability and firepower.  The only way this might work currently is if Odyssey brings Claw fighters, and Claws cripple the enemy long enough to Odyssey to alpha-strike it to death before it recovers.

If my Odyssey uses beams, ranges are comparable to enemy capital, but enemy hits for hard flux, but Odyssey does not except for its fighters.  If fighters keep getting shot down and replacement rate falls low enough, Odyssey becomes impotent, barring cheese involving Tachyon Lances and careless shield management by AI.
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Death_Silence_66

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Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2017, 09:02:43 PM »

Lance Odyssey is great for mopping up frigates and destroyers and can nuke distracted cruisers and capitals. In my experience if can only be effective in player control.
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Megas

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Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2017, 05:38:26 AM »

Against frigates and destroyers, they just run-and-hide unless they have the numbers to swarm and kill Odyssey fast, Odyssey cannot engage (unless it is something slow like Enforcer or Condor) and it needs to send fighters after them.  Legion and Astral are better at that due to having more fighters.  Even the Heron cruiser is a better choice.  (Paragon has more guns and much better shot range, yet the AI knows how to stay away far enough away.  Frigate swarms are the weakness of the Paragon... and every other ship except maybe carriers that bring enough fighters.)

Cruisers, Odyssey can kill the slower ones, but some others are faster and can kite like the smaller ships.

Capitals, Odyssey is at a disadvantage and will die if it tries to duel fairly.  Sure, Odyssey can gang-up with other allied ships and take down ships it cannot do on its own, but so can other ships that are also capable of dueling a capital on their own.

If Odyssey is only effective under player control, why use it when I can use a cheaper and more effective 40 DP capital or the 50 DP monster called Paragon?  Legion is the low-tech version of Odyssey, and it is far more effective (and common).  If I want to focus on fighters, Legion or Astral is better.  Other capitals can afford Converted Hangar and bring their own wing of fighters to assist.  (Yes, their fighters are not as reliable as proper carriers with Expanded Deck Crew, but the ships are strong enough to not need it.  Their fighters are useful for flushing out faster small ships like frigates.)

My complaint about Odyssey is it is too weak to duel and kill other capitals and too slow to kill the majority of everything else.
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