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Author Topic: Industry Suggestions: Ship Recovery, Hulks and Hull Conversions  (Read 529 times)
alguLoD
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« on: July 15, 2017, 11:32:31 AM »

Ship Recovery
There's a few problems with the system as it stands, largely UI imposed. One that gets remarked on is how the number of ships that show up on the recovery screen can be limited by the size of your own fleet, presumably to avoid the player trying to go above the 30-ship fleet size limit.

I think it'd be a lot more sensible if that limitation was abolished and the limit on fleet size spelled out. On the ship recovery window, this could simply be a bar on the bottom of the screen going [current fleet size] / 30. If the player tries to recover more ships than they can have in their fleet, they simply can't click the "recover" button and have to deselect enough ships to go under the 30-ship limit.

The current system works fine most of the time, but it's a serious pain when you realize that the odds of you getting the opportunity to recover particularly nice enemy ships goes down the bigger both your and the enemy's fleets are.

Hulks
A somewhat more radical suggestion: ships that are disabled but not recoverable instead become "hulks". You can still recover these (they show up after all the other recoverable ships with some particular indicator as to their status as a hulk), but they can't be used, acting much like mothballed ships, though rather than consuming fuel, they provide a significant burn penalty (and maybe disable Sustained Burn?) unless your fleet includes a Tug.

Destroyed ships, i.e. those that break apart in combat, never become hulks.

Hulks could later be restored at any station (or outpost?) for a hefty sum, much like a D-mod ship. If a system is ever implemented into the game to permit ship construction (presumably involving the acquisition of autofactories in some fashion) this would be more expensive than constructing a ship from scratch, but would not require the same facilities.

Some Industry skill perk or another might allow you to turn destroyed ships into hulks as well.

Hull Conversions
I have a gut feeling that this is already in a design document somewhere, but I'm going to suggest it anyway.

There are a few ships flying around in the Persean Sector that are conversions of civilian ships, usually showing up in the hands of pirates and independents, though the Kite and Kite (A) are examples as well. As far as I can tell, these are not supposed to require UACs (with the exception of the Condor), being instead manual refits and modifications of UAC/autofactory products.

The player should be allowed to perform such conversions at any friendly station or outpost. This would presumably be governed by a Skill in the Industry aptitude, with Conversions being linked to specific hulls and every particular Conversion having a certain difficulty level, analogous to the current Salvage and Hazard Rating systems. Presumably these would also have some sort of cost in credits, metals, supplies, time (if time is ever to be made relevant) and/or some other resources or requirements.

Since it's part of the background and has an obvious niche (turning recovered civilian ships which may otherwise be worthless into proper clunkers), I'm guessing something of the sort is already planned, even if my suggestion is way off the mark on the specifics.

Law and Order
Okay, so this one isn't industry, it's purely because I'm leery about starting two threads at once. Too spammy.

Basically, much like how having a reputation in the -1 to -24 range makes you more likely to be stopped for inspections by a given faction's patrols, having an overly militarized fleet would do the same, unless you have a 25+ reputation or commission with the faction in question. Overly militarized being defined as having either a high ratio of military to civilian ships (>1:1) and any military ship of cruiser designation or higher.

A rather more extreme suggestion is to count military-grade weapons as contraband if you don't have a positive reputation with a particular faction. Alternatively and less extremely, an inspection catching you with military-grade weapons (if you do not possess a commission or positive reputation with that faction) would reduce your reputation with that faction.

Naturally, pirate and freeport markets wouldn't care, and independent ones probably wouldn't either.
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cjusa
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« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2017, 12:24:34 PM »

I personally find that the hulk system doesn't seem all that lucrative or useful. I propose that the fleet size cap be changed to a soft limit, impacted by both player level and/or points in logistics or industry.
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alguLoD
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« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2017, 12:28:15 PM »

Honestly, I just want a more reliable way of getting my hands on IBBs without resorting to the somewhat immersion-breaking Prism Freeport.  Tongue
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Megas
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« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2017, 04:44:47 PM »

Ship Recovery suggestion would be nice.  If I want to capture ships, I cannot bring more than about twenty ships or else I cannot capture many ships; and I probably get outnumbered.  Currently, this harkens back to 0.7.x where AI's endgame fleet (of 40 ships per fleet) outnumbered your 25 ships.  Today, it is the enemy's 30 against your 15-20.

Hulks seem too complicated for marginal, if any, benefit.

Law and Order sounds like another grief-ing annoyance on par with "Gank Burn" and "IP spam".  If I get to build my own faction and territory, I would like for my goons to give their shakedown medicine back at them when they trespass my territory.
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Zhentar
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« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2017, 08:02:05 AM »

I have a simple alternative suggestion for ship recovery: make the fleet size limit apply only to non-mothballed ships. You can recover as many ships as you want, automatically mothballing any past the 30 limit, so there's no need to keep spare slots open, but they can't be used in combat so it doesn't break that balance.
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Morbo513
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« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2017, 04:06:12 AM »

Ship Recovery
There's a few problems with the system as it stands, largely UI imposed. One that gets remarked on is how the number of ships that show up on the recovery screen can be limited by the size of your own fleet, presumably to avoid the player trying to go above the 30-ship fleet size limit.

I think it'd be a lot more sensible if that limitation was abolished and the limit on fleet size spelled out. On the ship recovery window, this could simply be a bar on the bottom of the screen going [current fleet size] / 30. If the player tries to recover more ships than they can have in their fleet, they simply can't click the "recover" button and have to deselect enough ships to go under the 30-ship limit.

The current system works fine most of the time, but it's a serious pain when you realize that the odds of you getting the opportunity to recover particularly nice enemy ships goes down the bigger both your and the enemy's fleets are.
I'd much rather a soft cap based on supplies/mo be implemented - 30 onslaughts aint the same as 30 lashers, all the current fleet cap does imo is encourage the player against having a diverse mix of hull-sizes.
In either case though, I like the idea of auto-mothballing ships gained from recovery that exceed the cap.

Quote
Hulks
A somewhat more radical suggestion: ships that are disabled but not recoverable instead become "hulks". You can still recover these (they show up after all the other recoverable ships with some particular indicator as to their status as a hulk), but they can't be used, acting much like mothballed ships, though rather than consuming fuel, they provide a significant burn penalty (and maybe disable Sustained Burn?) unless your fleet includes a Tug.

[...]

Hulks could later be restored at any station (or outpost?) for a hefty sum, much like a D-mod ship. [...]
I suggested something along the same lines, but as an option regarding recovery. In my ideal way of things, when you're presented with a recoverable ship, you have three options:
1) recover it on the spot which takes time (Con-rig/salvage gantries can speed up); a flat investment of supplies and a requisite amount of heavy machinery, and crew to man it once it's done. This would be similar to the current recovery system, but more costly and inherently riskier
2) Bring its engines back on-line - requires a small, flat investment of fuel and supplies, and again, heavy machinery, plus a minimal number of crew - Wouldn't take time, but would incur a severe burn penalty.
This would be the player's primary means of ship recovery until they invest in a construction rig or tug(s).
3) Use a tug and tow it to a market in its disabled state, to recover it there for a heavily reduced supply cost/heavy machinery requirement (due to shipyard facilities). Has no investment or requirements except the tug, incurs no penalty. But it also means no repairs can be performed on that ship, it can't be deployed in combat, and will probably die if forced into a retreat. However, all things in your favour this'd be the most efficient and economical means of ship recovery, you'd just have to own (a) tug(s) which means less combat ships in the fleet - one of the reasons I want that supply/mo cap instead of "30 ships"

It'd be cool if there were certain ships (Eg. Metelson's R&M Hulk(?)) that could function as a tug for multiple ships.

Quote
Hull Conversions
I have a gut feeling that this is already in a design document somewhere, but I'm going to suggest it anyway.

There are a few ships flying around in the Persean Sector that are conversions of civilian ships, usually showing up in the hands of pirates and independents, though the Kite and Kite (A) are examples as well. As far as I can tell, these are not supposed to require UACs (with the exception of the Condor), being instead manual refits and modifications of UAC/autofactory products.

The player should be allowed to perform such conversions at any friendly station or outpost. This would presumably be governed by a Skill in the Industry aptitude, with Conversions being linked to specific hulls and every particular Conversion having a certain difficulty level, analogous to the current Salvage and Hazard Rating systems. Presumably these would also have some sort of cost in credits, metals, supplies, time (if time is ever to be made relevant) and/or some other resources or requirements.

Since it's part of the background and has an obvious niche (turning recovered civilian ships which may otherwise be worthless into proper clunkers), I'm guessing something of the sort is already planned, even if my suggestion is way off the mark on the specifics.
I'd like for this to extend to any variants of any hull, with the caveat that faction-specific variants require you to take that ship to a market belonging to that faction, OR purchase/loot/steal blueprints (Same fashion as mod-specs) from that faction to perform those conversions yourself.

Quote
Law and Order
Okay, so this one isn't industry, it's purely because I'm leery about starting two threads at once. Too spammy.

Basically, much like how having a reputation in the -1 to -24 range makes you more likely to be stopped for inspections by a given faction's patrols, having an overly militarized fleet would do the same, unless you have a 25+ reputation or commission with the faction in question. Overly militarized being defined as having either a high ratio of military to civilian ships (>1:1) and any military ship of cruiser designation or higher.

A rather more extreme suggestion is to count military-grade weapons as contraband if you don't have a positive reputation with a particular faction. Alternatively and less extremely, an inspection catching you with military-grade weapons (if you do not possess a commission or positive reputation with that faction) would reduce your reputation with that faction.

Naturally, pirate and freeport markets wouldn't care, and independent ones probably wouldn't either.

I see what you're getting at here, but the means you describe would be tedious to deal with. You could have bounty-hunting licenses from factions that enable you to be armed in their territory, but getting there to get the license would probably incur those penalties since you're likely already armed - as would, in the case of your suggestion as it is, most of the actions you can perform to increase relations with a given faction. Getting around such a system would require the ability to, say, leave part of your fleet in hyperspace or on the fringes of a system while you fly out with your "balanced" fleet to interact with their markets.
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TaLaR
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« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2017, 05:52:52 AM »

I'd much rather a soft cap based on supplies/mo be implemented - 30 onslaughts aint the same as 30 lashers, all the current fleet cap does imo is encourage the player against having a diverse mix of hull-sizes.

While that's true, having only up to 10 officers (which can not be reassigned between combat rounds/in combat) is even more important factor in encouraging few large ships based play-style.

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Megas
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« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2017, 07:24:06 AM »

I'd much rather a soft cap based on supplies/mo be implemented - 30 onslaughts aint the same as 30 lashers, all the current fleet cap does imo is encourage the player against having a diverse mix of hull-sizes.
In either case though, I like the idea of auto-mothballing ships gained from recovery that exceed the cap.
This was the old Logistics system from before 0.7.  Back then, after skills were introduced, the base was 20, Leadership aptitude gave 2 per point, and Fleet Logistics gave 3 per point (back when skills had max of 10 instead of 3 today, and skills and aptitudes had separate points).  Unskilled, you could use a few frigates or one battlecruiser (not battleship or Astral).  Also, crew required Logistics (1 per 100 crew, I think).  This encouraged people to solo fleets because if they did not take Leadership, they had to fight with a few frigates or one mid-sized ship.  Until food runs came in 0.6.5, leveling past 35 was tedious, and it was a choice between large unskilled fleet of smaller ships, small unskilled fleet of battleships, or highly skilled flagship plus backup ship or freighters.  When 0.6.5 and food runs came, leveling past 60 or 70 was possible, and player could get almost everything.

It got changed to fleet cap to streamline things (less stats, crew not eating logistics).
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Morbo513
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« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2017, 10:46:48 AM »

What I'm suggesting isn't that though. No skill factoring (and compensating for current fleet logistics' supply upkeep skill), just "You cannot have a fleet that uses more than X supplies/month (by default)". That way, the cap becomes sort of like a "points" system. It's then up to you whether it's worth using say 4 wolves over a medusa.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 10:50:34 AM by Morbo513 » Logged
nathanebht
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« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2017, 05:20:44 PM »

The whole limited to 25 ships while enemy fleets can be bigger, so I'm outnumbered is not great. The limit feels very artificial and unfair.

Rather than OP's Hulk concept, how about if we get to pick from all of the non-fragmented enemy ships after a battle. Its odd that your randomly given only certain enemy ships to salvage. Put lots of d-mods on some of the ships instead of not making them a choice.
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Megas
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« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2017, 05:34:07 PM »

The whole limited to 25 ships while enemy fleets can be bigger, so I'm outnumbered is not great. The limit feels very artificial and unfair.
This was 0.7.x.  Now, the cap is 30 ships, and fighters are weapons instead of ships, so enemy fleets are unlikely to be bigger than the player's if he has 30 ships too.  However, the player having too many ships interferes with ship recovery (and makes Recovery Operations 2 perk irrelevant).  If player wants to recover rare or powerful enemy ships, then player will need to bring fewer ships, and probably get outnumbered like in 0.7.x.
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